SoxProspects News
|
|
|
|
Legal
Forum Ground Rules
The views expressed by the members of this Forum do not necessarily reflect the views of SoxProspects, LLC.
© 2003-2024 SoxProspects, LLC
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Home | Search | My Profile | Messages | Members | Help |
Welcome Guest. Please Login or Register.
Dustin Pedroia Announces Retirement
ericmvan
Veteran
Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 8,924
|
Post by ericmvan on Feb 1, 2021 13:53:55 GMT -5
Billy Herman, Bobby Doer, Tony Lazzeri, Nellie Fox, Johnny Evers, Red Schoendinest, Bill Mazeroski, and from the 19th century, Bid McPhee. All HOF 2B, none as good as Pedroia at his peak. Granted, the last four of the modern guys are often complained about as mistakes, and there are a dozen guys who were better. But clearly he's in the conversation.
Another comp: Kirby Puckett. Pedroia has a slightly better career WAR and a slightly higher peak, and his career was cut short not by a medical condition but by an on-field injury.
In my Hall Worthiness metric he's a 55.0, where 64+ is the point where essentially everyone from before expansion is in.
That's already a decent case. Now consider:
1) I'm pretty sure that no infield metrics include catching line drives. It's felt to be not that much of a skill, and it's very hard to measure, so it's ignored. Pedey, who had a first step so quick it bordered on the paranormal, caught a ton of line drives that were not obviously hit within his reach. That's at least a couple of WAR that's missing. It could be as much as 4.
2) When he went on the DL on August 1, 2017 he was having a .307 / .381 / .411 season. That includes .318 / .392 / .442 in 313 PA after the Machado injury, playing on a knee that in retrospect wasn't completely healed. In fact, he had hit .361 / .439 / .528 from June 26 to July 26. He seems to have re-aggravated the knee on the 28th, because he reported inflammation and wasn't in the lineup the next day.
He had 114 PA after that DL trip and hit .188 / .272 / .238. (It brought his career line down from .301 / .367 / .443 to .299 / .365 / .439.) That shouldn't be counted against his career WAR.
3) It's not the Hall of Best Stats. It's the Hall of Fame. A borderline guy who was legitimately famous belongs in the Hall. But Pedroia wasn't merely famous -- he was iconic.
|
|
|
Post by manfred on Feb 1, 2021 14:04:30 GMT -5
Billy Herman, Bobby Doer, Tony Lazzeri, Nellie Fox, Johnny Evers, Red Schoendinest, Bill Mazeroski, and from the 19th century, Bid McPhee. All HOF 2B, none as good as Pedroia at his peak. Granted, the last four of the modern guys are often complained about as mistakes, and there are a dozen guys who were better. But clearly he's in the conversation.
Another comp: Kirby Puckett. Pedroia has a slightly better career WAR and a slightly higher peak, and his career was cut short not by a medical condition but by an on-field injury.
In my Hall Worthiness metric he's a 55.0, where 64+ is the point where essentially everyone from before expansion is in.
That's already a decent case. Now consider:
1) I'm pretty sure that no infield metrics include catching line drives. It's felt to be not that much of a skill, and it's very hard to measure, so it's ignored. Pedey, who had a first step so quick it bordered on the paranormal, caught a ton of line drives that were not obviously hit within his reach. That's at least a couple of WAR that's missing. It could be as much as 4.
2) When he went on the DL on August 1, 2017 he was having a .307 / .381 / .411 season. That includes .318 / .392 / .442 in 313 PA after the Machado injury, playing on a knee that in retrospect wasn't completely healed. In fact, he had hit .361 / .439 / .528 from June 26 to July 26. He seems to have re-aggravated the knee on the 28th, because he reported inflammation and wasn't in the lineup the next day.
He had 114 PA after that DL trip and hit .188 / .272 / .238. (It brought his career line down from .301 / .367 / .443 to .299 / .365 / .439.) That shouldn't be counted against his career WAR.
3) It's not the Hall of Best Stats. It's the Hall of Fame. A borderline guy who was legitimately famous belongs in the Hall. But Pedroia wasn't merely famous -- he was iconic.
#3 is what I always argue! Aura matters! Frankly, I know this will be unpopular, but I even think team matters... being the dace of the Sox, Yanks, Dodgers, a few teams... that makes you the face of baseball. If Pedey had had the exact career in KC, I would probably be saying “who’s that now?” to his retirement announcement. He’d be a notch above Alex Gordon. That is not a slam on Pedey... the opposite. He put his numbers up under constant pressure, where every game was for the pennant or to make the playoffs, or to win a playoff series or to win a title. He wasn’t on some middling San Diego team, out by August and enjoying the sun.
|
|
|
Post by bnich on Feb 1, 2021 14:35:49 GMT -5
One tough SOB and one hell of a player. Thank you Pedey!
|
|
dd
Veteran
Posts: 979
|
Post by dd on Feb 1, 2021 14:36:45 GMT -5
Billy Herman, Bobby Doer, Tony Lazzeri, Nellie Fox, Johnny Evers, Red Schoendinest, Bill Mazeroski, and from the 19th century, Bid McPhee. All HOF 2B, none as good as Pedroia at his peak. Granted, the last four of the modern guys are often complained about as mistakes, and there are a dozen guys who were better. But clearly he's in the conversation. Eric, please please never speak evil of my childhood hero, Nellie Fox!
|
|
|
Post by bluechip on Feb 1, 2021 14:52:20 GMT -5
A great player. He is the exact type of guy who, if he played during the 1930s, would have gotten into the hall of fame. Now, he probably falls a little shy.
|
|
|
Post by chrisfromnc on Feb 1, 2021 15:44:36 GMT -5
Your favorite Dustin Pedroia memories? In 2008, I was at Fenway taking one of the paid tours of the ballpark. Its like 2:15 in the afternoon. Pedroia was alone out on the field taking grounders for the entire time the tour was going on. It was just ball after ball after ball. Lets remember dude was working on an MVP and a GG and coming off a ROY. Its five hours before the game and he's diving all over the place. It wasn't just that, he was working. After several balls, he'd go over and talk for a minute with the coach hitting him grounders. They were talking technique because you'd see the coach get in a ready position and make a move like a ball was coming and they'd talk. Honestly, it was the best part of taking that tour and it isn't even close. I wish I coulda just sat near first and watched the whole thing. The guy was already great. He needed (for himself) to be better.
Work ethic. Love of just playing baseball. These are good qualities to have in your second baseman.
|
|
|
Post by jerrygarciaparra on Feb 1, 2021 15:46:57 GMT -5
less concerned about HOF, which would be nice. Look forward to the day they retire his number. That should be a no brainer.
|
|
|
Post by redsox04071318champs on Feb 1, 2021 16:00:13 GMT -5
less concerned about HOF, which would be nice. Look forward to the day they retire his number. That should be a no brainer. The two are kind of intertwined. With the exception of Johnny Pesky and David Ortiz, who will be voted into the HOF, the Sox generally don't retire numbers unless the player is enshrined in Cooperstown.
|
|
nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,787
|
Post by nomar on Feb 1, 2021 16:38:04 GMT -5
One of the Sox greats. So many good memories
|
|
TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,835
|
Post by TearsIn04 on Feb 1, 2021 16:57:52 GMT -5
As noted, DP's 51.6 career WAR is higher than Doerr, Fox, Evers, Laz, Maz and Schoendienst, all of whom are in the HOF. But the other side of that is that he's also well behind several 2B who are not in and probably won't be. They include Sweet Lou Whitaker (75.1!), Bobby Grich, Willie Randolph, Chase Utley, Jeff Kent and 2018 World Champion Ian Kinsler.
I think DP will be a hard sell for HOFer voters. But he's the best 2B in RS history and one of the most important players in their history. Retire No. 15 and put it on the RF facade (along with 23 for Luis and 24 for Dewey).
Edit: They should also add placards for Cy Young and Tris Speaker, two all-time greats who were part of the BB's first dynasty back in the days when players didn't wear numbers.
|
|
|
Post by electricityverdugo99 on Feb 1, 2021 16:58:48 GMT -5
One of my favorite 2nd baseman to watch defensively. He gobbled up everything with his lightning hands. One of the best hand eye coordinated baseball players you'll ever see. I hate getting old. This hurts a little. I'll miss that little guy.
|
|
TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,835
|
Post by TearsIn04 on Feb 1, 2021 17:02:15 GMT -5
less concerned about HOF, which would be nice. Look forward to the day they retire his number. That should be a no brainer. The two are kind of intertwined. With the exception of Johnny Pesky and David Ortiz, who will be voted into the HOF, the Sox generally don't retire numbers unless the player is enshrined in Cooperstown. But they've repeatedly changed the rules to retire certain numbers. Pesky and Papi are just two examples. They used to require that a guy finish his career with the RS. They have since retired 26, 27 and 45. They also used to say that a guy needed to spend 10 years with the org. Pedro spent seven.
|
|
jimoh
Veteran
Posts: 3,968
|
Post by jimoh on Feb 1, 2021 20:23:42 GMT -5
[...]
3) It's not the Hall of Best Stats. It's the Hall of Fame. A borderline guy who was legitimately famous belongs in the Hall. But Pedroia wasn't merely famous -- he was iconic.
Um, no. It's not a Hall to acknowledge who is famous. It's a Hall to bring fame to people who deserve it. Regardless of what you think about Pedroia, that's an incredibly weak argument.
|
|
|
Post by sittingstill on Feb 1, 2021 21:22:24 GMT -5
Folks have already mentioned so many of the things that were special about Pedroia, so I'll just add this:
I was on an early afternoon Fenway tour, and Mike Lowell brought his young son out on the empty field to play with a big plastic bat and ball.
Mike Lowell's son was wearing a Pedroia shirt.
|
|
|
Post by Guidas on Feb 1, 2021 22:12:10 GMT -5
One of the greatest Red Sox players ever. I felt like in 2008 he was willing them into the playoffs. And he did leave it all on the field.
And Manny Machado should be rotting in some jail.
|
|
|
Post by jodyreidnichols on Feb 1, 2021 22:37:03 GMT -5
Pedroia made guys that were not 6 ft tall and 200 pounds believe that anyone could excel at baseball and for that, I'll always hold a place in my heart for him. I love all the quotes by old teammates of his. He's a fence guy for me regarding HOF status but easily a Sox HOF player. That said I've been mocked here, look at my caption and other places for mentioning that a part of what made him so good would be his downfall. He was a small player who only know one way to play, balls-out whether he was up or down 10 runs. He had surgery nearly every year of his playing career even if most were during the off-season, and many die-hard fans are not even aware of that. Predicting how his career would end seemed over the top obvious to me. I don't take pride in predicting that but I shake my head that rational fans would not see that too. I would have traded him as far back as 2014. Many here hated me for stating that some hate me more for being right about that. That said I was never here to make enemies nor make friends but merely to trade thoughts and learn more about the game I love. I was and will be ridiculed for the idea of trading Pedrioa when he was 30. As horrific as you find the idea entertain even for a second what they could have landed for a 30-year-old Dustin Pedrioa? If you are a fan of a team and not a player that is, whether you choose to accept it or not, how you have to look at it. I know many will choose to look at this the wrong way, their feelings will be hurt, and will respond through emotion. I'll ignore those comments and only respond to those that want to engage in a rational debate if there is one here. Congrats Pedroia and thanks for the memories.
|
|
|
Post by redsox04071318champs on Feb 2, 2021 1:40:59 GMT -5
The two are kind of intertwined. With the exception of Johnny Pesky and David Ortiz, who will be voted into the HOF, the Sox generally don't retire numbers unless the player is enshrined in Cooperstown. But they've repeatedly changed the rules to retire certain numbers. Pesky and Papi are just two examples. They used to require that a guy finish his career with the RS. They have since retired 26, 27 and 45. They also used to say that a guy needed to spend 10 years with the org. Pedro spent seven. They've been all over the map with the rules. I mean they retired Bobby Doerr's number #1 and then a decade later said because they gave Fisk a job title without any real duties and declared him eligible for the Sox to retire his #27. Don't remember them doing that for Bobby Doerr who finished up his career in a Blue Jays uniform as a coach. I do think the HOF is usually a big requirement for the Red Sox to retire a number. They made a glaring exception with Pesky because they wanted to honor his many years with the Sox while he was still living. They retired Ortiz early but they know he's going to the HOF. They did something similar with Yaz announcing that his number would be retired (or so I remember reading) when he got his 3000th hit even though he was active. They didn't have the ceremony until 1989 when he was elected to the HOF. I think the HOF voting Roger Clemens in is what they're waiting for to retire his #21, and if the HOF voters voted in Tiant and Evans, you'd see #23 and #24 retired as well. Likewise I would think they'll retire #15 when/if Pedroia goes to the HOF. Like I said, it's no slam dunk and you can come up with stats backing up somebody who might be a bit short, but I honestly think that by year 9 or 10 of his eligibility he'll make it. I could be wrong here - I'm surprised that Pettite and Bernie Williams faded so fast from the ballot, as quickly as Lofton and Edmonds. But Pedroia was a 2b who was great all around and the HOF isn't flush with that many 2b who were better, unlike Bernie Williams who was a CF. The other thing that will help is that he spent his entire career with the one team. He has some hardware, like a ROY award, a MVP, and some World Series rings, plus I think he was pretty popular within the game and well respected by the writers, so I do think, particularly given all of the controversial choices, a more palatable choice for the writers down the road. Plus he didn't fade away, losing his ability through mediocre end of career seasons. His career pretty much ended suddenly because some idiot slammed into him.
|
|
|
Post by Oregon Norm on Feb 2, 2021 1:51:28 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by DesignatedForAssignment on Feb 2, 2021 6:39:49 GMT -5
I wonder about INSURANCE on Dustin's contract. Players must be carried on the 60-day IL to collect the insurance. If there is insurance, Sox obviously figured something out "Red Sox will get no relief from the millions the infielder has due to him ... Multiple industry sources say the Red Sox chose not to insure his contract when it was signed in July 2013. Pedroia is due ... $12 million in 2021 as part of his eight-year, $110-million contract. An undisclosed amount of the money due him is deferred. In the early days of the John Henry ownership era, the Sox often insured big contracts for veteran players. " www.bostonsportsjournal.com/2019/02/19/mcadam-sources-red-sox-dont-insurance-dustin-pedroias-contract/
|
|
|
Post by agastonguay13 on Feb 2, 2021 7:48:29 GMT -5
Since we're recounting our Dustin Pedroia memories, I was at the game September 9 2006 against KC when Pedroia hit his first Major League homer. I was 16, and my Dad was able to score tickets like 6 rows behind the Royals dugout for relatively cheap money since they weren't doing so hot that season. All I really remember seeing at the time was tiny #64 max efforting a bat that looked 3 sizes too big for him and a white streak flying over the Monster. I still have both my and my Dad's ticket stubs and have unsuccessfully attempted to get Pedroia to sign them over the years. Maybe one day...
|
|
|
Post by Guidas on Feb 2, 2021 16:17:07 GMT -5
I was at that game. You are correct - he saved the no-no! And how many times did we see him make similar plays? Just nails, that guy.
|
|
|
Post by TheCerebral1 on Feb 5, 2021 15:35:48 GMT -5
When you think about putting everything into your baseball career and breaking through glass ceilings, this is the guy. Determination and pure will power! Absolutely amazing career, thank you for everything Pedey!
|
|
|
Post by blumj on Feb 7, 2021 9:16:48 GMT -5
I expect him to be thenext Remy soon
|
|
|
Post by tjb21 on Feb 9, 2021 10:21:43 GMT -5
He was the first Red Sox jersey I ever purchased. Happy we got to witness his time in Boston.
|
|
jimoh
Veteran
Posts: 3,968
|
Post by jimoh on Feb 9, 2021 17:29:56 GMT -5
|
|
|