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Benintendi traded to KC in 3-way deal w/ NYM
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Post by kevfc89 on Feb 10, 2021 23:38:09 GMT -5
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Post by manfred on Feb 10, 2021 23:44:08 GMT -5
It appears by all measures Cordero is a very bad fielder. I am suspicious of those stats, but... they are going to need to do something else to complete the outfield.
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Post by pedroelgrande on Feb 10, 2021 23:44:09 GMT -5
Cordero is the type of guy the Rays (Obviously the Red Sox have more resources than the Rays just talking strategy wise) would target then use correctly and boom people would be wondering how the heck it happened. The return is incomplete we don’t know who the three prospects are but must be significant given they put in money to increase the return.
Gonna miss Benintendi, the last prospect I really got excited about wish it would have worked out differently.
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Post by grandsalami on Feb 10, 2021 23:44:15 GMT -5
Yea. Which is what makes the dodgers different than us. They have had and still have a farm system. We don’t really have the farm we used to after all the trades DD made here. It’s trading short term struggles for long term gain.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Feb 10, 2021 23:45:35 GMT -5
Serious question: they *have* to resign JBJ now, right? They have one full-time outfielder. No, not in my mind. Seems to me they moved him as less of a salary cleanse than as a way to try and just move him for anything they could get back and the deal they took was probably the highest return. Paying 3m of Benny's deal will only leave tad over 10m before hitting the salary cap and that's before figuring in the 1.2mAAV Sawamura is expected to earn. Bradley's market falls to 5-6m annually and perhaps, which could happen if boras has been pumping his BS machine all winter, but doubt it's that bad and even then don't think Boston would go more than 2y if it fell that low.
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Post by manfred on Feb 10, 2021 23:45:54 GMT -5
Cordero is the type of guy the Rays (Obviously the Red Sox have more resources than the Rays just talking strategy wise) would target then use correctly and boom people would be wondering how the heck it happened. The return is incomplete we don’t know who the three prospects are but must be significant given they put in money to increase the return. Gonna miss Benintendi, the last prospect I really got excited about wish it would have worked out differently. How so? What makes him a “Rays type of guy”? Like whom?
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Post by soxfan06 on Feb 10, 2021 23:48:39 GMT -5
This is now the 2nd year in a row you've traded away one of our young homegrown starters. The least this franchise could do is stop frigging lying too us. They haven't given us an iota of a chance this year.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Feb 10, 2021 23:52:51 GMT -5
I do find it interesting they also announced Winckowski as opposed to having him as a PTBNL later on. They may really like him
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Feb 10, 2021 23:56:11 GMT -5
Cordero is the type of guy the Rays (Obviously the Red Sox have more resources than the Rays just talking strategy wise) would target then use correctly and boom people would be wondering how the heck it happened. The return is incomplete we don’t know who the three prospects are but must be significant given they put in money to increase the return. Gonna miss Benintendi, the last prospect I really got excited about wish it would have worked out differently. How so? What makes him a “Rays type of guy”? Like whom? Probably undervalued high exit velo guys like Yandy Diaz and Arozarena. To different degrees Now developing in a market like Tampa is quite different than developing in a market like Boston but I get the idea of picking up guys with loud tools who hopefully put everything together Especially when Cordero has been a league average hitter to date- there isn’t as much downside to him as I initially thought
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Post by Jimmy on Feb 10, 2021 23:57:09 GMT -5
This is now the 2nd year in a row you've traded away one of our young homegrown starters. The least this franchise could do is stop frigging lying too us. They haven't given us an iota of a chance this year. I think this is a misrepresentation. They are giving us a chance this year. Added Otto. Added a ton of SP depth. Traded Benny? Yeah, but he wasnât good for the past year and a half so I donât know how you can really consider that a huge loss in win now terms. Maybe they havenât filled RF and 2B with big name guys, but theyâve certainly acquired guys that can platoon well. You canât look at replacements in terms of 1 for 1, I think itâs fairly clear that we are either saving money (Kiké signing) or creating value (Benny trade) by opting to go for platoons that can collectively equal the value you would get by either signing a big ticket guy or retaining someone like Benny. This is particularly important when 1) youâre at the CBT and 2) you have no farm system. Finally, nobody is being lied to. Bloom has been perfectly clear that he is out here to build a sustainable contender. He has said it over, and over, and over. He canât come out and say they just plan on being average next year for the sake of the future. But his words and actions have been pretty clear in that they are building for the future, and that in the meantime they going to put out a team this season that we can expect to be around average.
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Post by manfred on Feb 11, 2021 0:09:25 GMT -5
How so? What makes him a “Rays type of guy”? Like whom? Probably undervalued high exit velo guys like Yandy Diaz and Arozarena. To different degrees Now developing in a market like Tampa is quite different than developing in a market like Boston but I get the idea of picking up guys with loud tools who hopefully put everything together Especially when Cordero has been a league average hitter to date- there isn’t as much downside to him as I initially thought You keep saying “league average,” when he is not. He is under .300 OBP if you take out his 9 game “burst” in 2019. His slash is bad/bad/ok. If he performs to his current numbers, that is pretty bad, especially as a starter on a team hoping to compete in the AL East. So I’d say there is high downside. A 26-27 year old with four years of uninspired O and apparently below average D. I’d be happy if he were 22. But he has a real short time frame to straighten out.
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Post by evanstonredsox on Feb 11, 2021 0:10:20 GMT -5
Serious question on PTBNLs. There's no written agreement that teams have to trade a player on the "agreed-upon" list right? Like if some low A international signee completely changed in the past year, explodes onto the scene to open camp and the minor league season and is now considered a future star, what's stopping the Royals or Mets from saying they won't trade him anymore... besides a reputation that they could go back on their word in future deals?
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Feb 11, 2021 0:20:58 GMT -5
Probably undervalued high exit velo guys like Yandy Diaz and Arozarena. To different degrees Now developing in a market like Tampa is quite different than developing in a market like Boston but I get the idea of picking up guys with loud tools who hopefully put everything together Especially when Cordero has been a league average hitter to date- there isn’t as much downside to him as I initially thought You keep saying “league average,” when he is not. He is under .300 OBP if you take out his 9 game “burst” in 2019. His slash is bad/bad/ok. If he performs to his current numbers, that is pretty bad, especially as a starter on a team hoping to compete in the AL East. So I’d say there is high downside. A 26-27 year old with four years of uninspired O and apparently below average D. I’d be happy if he were 22. But he has a real short time frame to straighten out. OPS of .737, OPS+ of 99 is pretty much the definition of league average Yeah I mean if you take out the sample where he was good he’s actually bad, that’s a good point
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Post by Oregon Norm on Feb 11, 2021 0:21:42 GMT -5
So the Red Sox have a list of players from the Mets and they get to wait until May or whenever and pick whichever one has the best start to their season? I would never agree to a deal like that if I were the Mets unless everyone on the list was minor league roster filler. The Mets presumably had to commit to giving away something legit to get Lee here. I have the imagine the Royals aren't giving much else.
Again, there's a once-in-a-hundred-year pandemic with a half-million dead and newly evolved bits of virus on the way. The Mets, and every other team, are agreeing to stuff they would never have dreamed of when fans were still in the stands. We all need to change our frame of mind. This ain't the "old" days.
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Post by foreverred9 on Feb 11, 2021 0:23:25 GMT -5
Serious question on PTBNLs. There's no written agreement that teams have to trade a player on the "agreed-upon" list right? Like if some low A international signee completely changed in the past year, explodes onto the scene to open camp and the minor league season and is now considered a future star, what's stopping the Royals or Mets from saying they won't trade him anymore... besides a reputation that they could go back on their word in future deals? I'd imagine the contractual language is pretty strong, in which case they'd go to arbitration and get it resolved.
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Post by manfred on Feb 11, 2021 0:24:18 GMT -5
You keep saying “league average,” when he is not. He is under .300 OBP if you take out his 9 game “burst” in 2019. His slash is bad/bad/ok. If he performs to his current numbers, that is pretty bad, especially as a starter on a team hoping to compete in the AL East. So I’d say there is high downside. A 26-27 year old with four years of uninspired O and apparently below average D. I’d be happy if he were 22. But he has a real short time frame to straighten out. OPS of .737, OPS+ of 99 is pretty much the definition of league average Yeah I mean if you take out the sample where he was good he’s actually bad, that’s a good point That’s fair. But when the guy can’t stick, a 9 game small sample mixed in with other small samples can throw things out of whack. Again though... would you be happy if he puts up year five of OPS+ of 99?
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Post by Oregon Norm on Feb 11, 2021 0:24:48 GMT -5
This is the second offseason in a row that it feels like, as a fan, I’ve been traded to a low-revenue team which plays in a non-baseball market.... They are seen as a 87-88 win team, and they're probably not done. I'm sorry your so despondent. Try to get some sleep.
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Feb 11, 2021 0:25:36 GMT -5
Jeez. This evening I got to ask Joe Castiglione if he got hurt when he fell out of his chair after Andrew Benintendi made his diving catch of Alex Bregman's liner to save the 4th Game of the 2018 World Series. I figured I'd get to sleep much earlier tonight so I caught a few minutes of NESN expecting to turn it off and go to bed. So what happens? Beni gets traded about 20 minutes after I asked my question.
So now I'm trying to figure out this trade and whether I like it or not. Part of me gets those Bronson Arroyo for Wily Mo Pena vibes, the player you can dream on for a fairly unremarkable but steady kind of player.
I'm kind of past the point of dreaming that Benintendi becomes the new Freddy Lynn, but I still think there's a .290 - .300 hitter there with 20 HR power. I don't think, despite how bad he looked toward the end of 2019 and how bad he was in a small sample size in 2020, that he's going to "bust" with KC. I think his floor is still about an average player.
I'm surprised that it took Benintendi to acquire Franchy Cordero, who I really don't know what to make of. It's hard because he really hasn't had hardly any ABs for 3 seasons.
His 2017 minor league stats, while probably inflated by the ballpark, were pretty gaudy. He had some promise in the only semi-significant sample size of ABs, and even that sample size in 2018 is questionable. It looked like a guy with some power, some speed, and some plate discipline. But between the injuries and/or whatever else, he's barely batted at all the past few years. How can you really judge what he is? I can't look at an 80 AB sample size and get too worked up one way or the other.
This guy could boom or bust. His ceiling is probably higher than Benintendi and his floor is a helluva lot lower, and it's not like he's 22 years old.
And Winckowski looks like another back end starter/more probable as a reliever type pitcher the Sox seem to have a lot of in the minors.
Honestly when I heard the Mets were involved before I heard the name Cordero I was thinking/hoping for Dominic Smith.
All I can say is that I hope the PTBNLs are really good because otherwise I don't see the point of the deal.
Chaim Bloom uses judgments that seem to vary, not just from me - which is fine, but from others. I mean the Yorke pick was off the radar and was panned by some.
The prospect he got from the Yankees was seen as fringy by some, but he sees something more than fringy. He sees Winckoski, who others see as a reliever/back end starter and the PTBNL as better than the outfield prospect Lee who went to the Mets, but perhaps would have been a better fit for the Red Sox, if they're building up a future core.
It remains to be seen if he was right about the Downs/Wong replacement for Graterol.
He definitely does things a lot differently than I would. Doesn't mean it's wrong, but it does mean I'll voice disagreement when I disagree.
So for this trade, I'm lukewarm on it, at least until I see more about the PTBNL.
I mean, perhaps Cordero blossoms, and becomes a 20 - 25 HR guy with a decent enough OBP and Benintendi continues to plateau, and then if Bloom is right about Winckowski being more than just another reliever, and he hits big on at least one of those PTBNL, then Bloom could make out like a bandit in this deal.
Or Benintendi can rebound, Cordero can continue to be an injury riddled enigma and Winkowski winds up being JAG and the PTBNL wind up being nothing special, then Bloom winds up not winning the deal.
I guess it will really come down to who those 3 PTBNL are.
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Post by manfred on Feb 11, 2021 0:28:22 GMT -5
This is the second offseason in a row that it feels like, as a fan, I’ve been traded to a low-revenue team which plays in a non-baseball market.... They are seen as a 87-88 win team, and they're probably not done. I'm sorry your so despondent. Try to get some sleep. What more can they do? They have to get another OF. But the FA market is pretty dried up overall. It seems like JBJ (or non-JBJ, eg Pillar or whatever) and done. Unless they pull off another trade, and I don’t know what else they can strip.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Feb 11, 2021 0:29:41 GMT -5
Strip's a cool word. Explain please?
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Post by manfred on Feb 11, 2021 0:35:26 GMT -5
Strip's a cool word. Explain please? Well, for a trade that matters (this year), they’ll have to trade a front-line player. I would do JDM, but I doubt they’d get that much, alas. X is out. Devers is out. Verdugo is out. CVaz... maaaayyyybeee. Eovaldi doesn’t likely yoeld enough. After that (Sale not counting), you’d not really be changing the team’s projection this year. What does trading Barnes get right now? Not anything more valuable than keeping him. So I don’t see a trade now that will change this season. Now, I mean. Not one they can/will do. Maybe others have a better sense of moveable pieces. But they are down to a pretty tight nucleus of guys with value as full-time players. Oh, and I son’t see them doing a big prospect package (Casas, Mata, and X for some Sale 2.0 or whatever).
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Feb 11, 2021 0:36:31 GMT -5
OK, after a Bobby-Dalbec-like streak of home runs, Franchy Cordero is the first player Bloom has acquired where I have no idea what he was thinking.
The one thing that jumps out at me is that (in SSS) he has splits that indicate a serious problem hitting elite pitching.
795 OPS in low and medium leverage, 405 in high. Part of that is 775 bases empty, 682 with men on, but a lot has to be his 792 through the 7th inning, 497 afterwards. 759 OPS facing a starter the 2nd time, 671 the third time, and the 759 includes guys who didn't make it to the third trip, which is to say that the third TTO split is selected for quality pitchers, and even given this small sample 671 is a bad number. It's supposed to go up, of course. None of these splits would mean much by themselves ... but the three lines of evidence converge.
I will take a look at his defense and other Statcast numbers, but as of now this looks like the first acquisition that must be a "we can change / fix this guy and make him much better" experiment.
I do thank Bloom for giving me the opportunity to demonstrate that I don't automatically rubber-stamp every move he makes. But looking up the numbers of Andriese and Richards was exciting (Renfroe and Hernandez I had already targeted, and Ottavino I wanted badly two years ago). This ... not so much. Coca-Cola, fresh-squeezed grapefruit juice without pulp, and the next term in that series is ... room temperature water.
As to whether this was a move to clear room under the tax limit to re-sign JBJ, I'd love to think the latter is about to happen. And I noted earlier that signing JBJ to a multi-year deal and having Duran succeed Benintendi instead was a viable pathway. Maybe they like that better.
The only good argument for staying under the cap this year, and it's very good if it's correct, is that they already know they want to go over in 2023. That's a quick and easy research question, as I already have a spreadsheet that ranks teams by financial clout. Which of the teams at the bottom of that list have a star or potential star player with 2 years of control left? That rundown forthcoming soon. I also not only enjoy showing that I can change my mind when a better theory comes along, I enjoy changing my mind, period.
Of course, the first name you'd put on that list is ... Andrew Benintendi.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Feb 11, 2021 0:47:33 GMT -5
OPS of .737, OPS+ of 99 is pretty much the definition of league average Yeah I mean if you take out the sample where he was good he’s actually bad, that’s a good point That’s fair. But when the guy can’t stick, a 9 game small sample mixed in with other small samples can throw things out of whack. Again though... would you be happy if he puts up year five of OPS+ of 99? No but that’s why they’re padding that risk with 4 other pieces
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Post by orion09 on Feb 11, 2021 0:51:23 GMT -5
Fingers crossed for Tim Tebow
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Post by Oregon Norm on Feb 11, 2021 0:54:18 GMT -5
They are seen as a 87-88 win team, and they're probably not done. I'm sorry your so despondent. Try to get some sleep. What more can they do? They have to get another OF. But the FA market is pretty dried up overall. It seems like JBJ (or non-JBJ, eg Pillar or whatever) and done. Unless they pull off another trade, and I don’t know what else they can strip. The implication is that they "stripped" Benintendi, your song and dance aside. That's a guy this forum bled all over last year as he bottomed out. He may make it back to some semblance of what he at first appeared to be. But "turned the page on" would seem to be a more honest appraisal. At .114/.314/.428, there wsan't much left to strip.
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