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Red Sox Trade Springs and Mazza to the Rays
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Post by vermontsox1 on Feb 17, 2021 8:58:17 GMT -5
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Post by vermontsox1 on Feb 17, 2021 9:00:44 GMT -5
Ronaldo Hernadez was ranked #13 by BA, #14 by MLB Pipeline, and #23 by Fangraphs.
From Fangraphs:
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Post by vermontsox1 on Feb 17, 2021 9:04:08 GMT -5
Sogard looks more like an org depth solid defensive SS. He wasn't listed on the 60+ list of prospects Fangraphs ranked for the Rays system.
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Post by incandenza on Feb 17, 2021 9:08:14 GMT -5
How the heck did Bloom get a 45 FV guy for Mazza and Springs?
Based on the fangraphs grades, he'd have to slot in as a top-10 prospect in the Red Sox system.
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Post by vermontsox1 on Feb 17, 2021 9:13:12 GMT -5
Keith Law ranked Hernandez #11 in his recently updated list: "If Hernandez were a no-doubt catcher, he’d be a top-100 prospect based on his bat, but his framing and receiving probably won’t work at the position unless we get the automated strike zone in the near future. Hernandez can hit, however. The Colombian backstop rarely strikes out, doing so in less than 14 percent of his pro plate appearances, and is strong enough for hard contact, but he struggled with his approach in High A in 2019, getting too aggressive early in counts, and needs reps to work on his plan at the plate." theathletic.com/2376017/2021/02/11/keith-law-prospect-rankings-rays/
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Post by natesp4 on Feb 17, 2021 9:20:41 GMT -5
This is honestly one of my favorite Bloom era trades. It feels like the type of trade you pull in a video game, trading guys you were cutting anyways for prospects. The type of trade you would just never see in the Dombrowski era, in part because Dombrowski never would have accumulated excess depth guys like this in the first place.
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Post by The Town Sports Cards on Feb 17, 2021 9:22:20 GMT -5
Yea I'm very surprised on the return. Either Tampa sees something in Mazza/Springs that Bloom doesn't (or Bloom did last offseason but 2020 proved wrong), or Tampa has really low expectations on Hernandez reaching his ceiling. Fascinating trade though. For the Sox I feel it's win-win, because you either hit big on an offensive catcher putting it together, and at worse you gave up some fringy quad-A arms that could give you some competent MLB innings in a playoff hunt.
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manfred
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Post by manfred on Feb 17, 2021 9:27:45 GMT -5
This is honestly one of my favorite Bloom era trades. It feels like the type of trade you pull in a video game, trading guys you were cutting anyways for prospects. The type of trade you would just never see in the Dombrowski era, in part because Dombrowski never would have accumulated excess depth guys like this in the first place. This is one of your favorite trades? Org. guys all around? I am afraid I am confused by the mise-en-abyme of it all: Bloom is a genius because of his Rays training, so he has mastered the art of sending guys we know are not valuable to chumps who don’t. Bbuuuuutttt.... this is to the RAYS, masters of knowing which prospects will bust and wizards of finding low hanging fruit. To believe Bloom has won, we must trust his Rays training; if he has won, then the Rays lose.... and then.... what... becomes.... of.... his... training??? Did O. Henry write this story?
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Post by jdb on Feb 17, 2021 9:28:40 GMT -5
I’m I crazy after reading a few reports that he’d probably slot into that 8-12 range with us? Seems like a heck of a move. BA had him at 56 before the 2019 season.
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Post by greenmonster on Feb 17, 2021 9:31:15 GMT -5
This is honestly one of my favorite Bloom era trades. It feels like the type of trade you pull in a video game, trading guys you were cutting anyways for prospects. The type of trade you would just never see in the Dombrowski era, in part because Dombrowski never would have accumulated excess depth guys like this in the first place. This is one of your favorite trades? Org. guys all around? I am afraid I am confused by the mise-en-abyme of it all: Bloom is a genius because of his Rays training, so he has mastered the art of sending guys we know are not valuable to chumps who don’t. Bbuuuuutttt.... this is to the RAYS, masters of knowing which prospects will bust and wizards of finding low hanging fruit. To believe Bloom has won, we must trust his Rays training; if he has won, then the Rays lose.... and then.... what... becomes.... of.... his... training??? Did O. Henry write this story? There you go ....being logical again
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Post by incandenza on Feb 17, 2021 9:33:13 GMT -5
This is honestly one of my favorite Bloom era trades. It feels like the type of trade you pull in a video game, trading guys you were cutting anyways for prospects. The type of trade you would just never see in the Dombrowski era, in part because Dombrowski never would have accumulated excess depth guys like this in the first place. This is one of your favorite trades? Org. guys all around? I am afraid I am confused by the mise-en-abyme of it all: Bloom is a genius because of his Rays training, so he has mastered the art of sending guys we know are not valuable to chumps who don’t. Bbuuuuutttt.... this is to the RAYS, masters of knowing which prospects will bust and wizards of finding low hanging fruit. To believe Bloom has won, we must trust his Rays training; if he has won, then the Rays lose.... and then.... what... becomes.... of.... his... training??? Did O. Henry write this story? Geez man, you're crapping on Bloom turning Springs and Mazza into an actual prospect? (Not sure why Hernandez is just an "org guy" to you.) And then you impute a totally invented argument to a commenter who was making a very valid point. You often take a more pessimistic stance, which is fine, but this just seems kind of sour.
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Post by The Town Sports Cards on Feb 17, 2021 9:33:59 GMT -5
This is honestly one of my favorite Bloom era trades. It feels like the type of trade you pull in a video game, trading guys you were cutting anyways for prospects. The type of trade you would just never see in the Dombrowski era, in part because Dombrowski never would have accumulated excess depth guys like this in the first place. This is one of your favorite trades? Org. guys all around? I am afraid I am confused by the mise-en-abyme of it all: Bloom is a genius because of his Rays training, so he has mastered the art of sending guys we know are not valuable to chumps who don’t. Bbuuuuutttt.... this is to the RAYS, masters of knowing which prospects will bust and wizards of finding low hanging fruit. To believe Bloom has won, we must trust his Rays training; if he has won, then the Rays lose.... and then.... what... becomes.... of.... his... training??? Did O. Henry write this story? I don't know how you consider a Rays top 20 prospect an org guy (MLB has him at 15, FG has him at 23) especially when the Rays are considered to have one of the top farm systems in MLB
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Post by natesp4 on Feb 17, 2021 9:35:04 GMT -5
This is honestly one of my favorite Bloom era trades. It feels like the type of trade you pull in a video game, trading guys you were cutting anyways for prospects. The type of trade you would just never see in the Dombrowski era, in part because Dombrowski never would have accumulated excess depth guys like this in the first place. This is one of your favorite trades? Org. guys all around? I am afraid I am confused by the mise-en-abyme of it all: Bloom is a genius because of his Rays training, so he has mastered the art of sending guys we know are not valuable to chumps who don’t. Bbuuuuutttt.... this is to the RAYS, masters of knowing which prospects will bust and wizards of finding low hanging fruit. To believe Bloom has won, we must trust his Rays training; if he has won, then the Rays lose.... and then.... what... becomes.... of.... his... training??? Did O. Henry write this story? Yeah I enjoy this type of deal. He's using the fringe ends of the roster to try to keep building value. As someone who loves following prospects, this is part of what makes following a team fun. I'm not saying he just bamboozled the Rays, but the Sox were prepared to lose both Mazza and Springs for nothing and got another fun guy to keep tabs on.
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Post by Addam603 on Feb 17, 2021 9:38:27 GMT -5
This is honestly one of my favorite Bloom era trades. It feels like the type of trade you pull in a video game, trading guys you were cutting anyways for prospects. The type of trade you would just never see in the Dombrowski era, in part because Dombrowski never would have accumulated excess depth guys like this in the first place. This is one of your favorite trades? Org. guys all around? I am afraid I am confused by the mise-en-abyme of it all: Bloom is a genius because of his Rays training, so he has mastered the art of sending guys we know are not valuable to chumps who don’t. Bbuuuuutttt.... this is to the RAYS, masters of knowing which prospects will bust and wizards of finding low hanging fruit. To believe Bloom has won, we must trust his Rays training; if he has won, then the Rays lose.... and then.... what... becomes.... of.... his... training??? Did O. Henry write this story? That’s just being negative for no reason. This is a good trade. Mazza and Springs were AAAA/DFA candidates that the team just turned into a legitimate catching prospect. Not an org guy. Could Hernandez never put it all together? Sure. But I’d rather have a prospect at a position of need that has the kind of ceiling that Hernandez does as opposed to Springs and Mazza.
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mobaz
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Post by mobaz on Feb 17, 2021 9:44:21 GMT -5
Depth begets depth. Because we had good players we were able to turn them into more good players that fit needs better. And we now have arms in the pipeline to be able to do so confidently. Solid work turning two nickels into a dime and a penny.
I still think Chavis is next.
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Feb 17, 2021 9:46:26 GMT -5
Mazza and Springs are JAGs. Good deal
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manfred
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Post by manfred on Feb 17, 2021 9:51:06 GMT -5
This is one of your favorite trades? Org. guys all around? I am afraid I am confused by the mise-en-abyme of it all: Bloom is a genius because of his Rays training, so he has mastered the art of sending guys we know are not valuable to chumps who don’t. Bbuuuuutttt.... this is to the RAYS, masters of knowing which prospects will bust and wizards of finding low hanging fruit. To believe Bloom has won, we must trust his Rays training; if he has won, then the Rays lose.... and then.... what... becomes.... of.... his... training??? Did O. Henry write this story? Geez man, you're crapping on Bloom turning Springs and Mazza into an actual prospect? (Not sure why Hernandez is just an "org guy" to you.) And then you impute a totally invented argument to a commenter who was making a very valid point. You often take a more pessimistic stance, which is fine, but this just seems kind of sour. First off, my post was hardly a nuclear bomb. More to the point, I was *gently* gesturing at how when the Sox trade *for* flawed guys, we like to say “they see something they can fix.” When we trade away flawed guys, we say “suckers.” If this trade were run in reverse, people would say “man, we gave up a couple lower tiered prospects for two major-league level arms? Guys with a little work could be real contributors? What a trade!” There are people who liked Springs and Mazza last year... even this year! This is why my reaction to trades like this is generally “meh” — this can be read many ways (depending on your bias), and will have no effect on this season (unless Mazza or Springs pitch well for the Rays, in which case this will help them in a competitive race for third place). Add: Hernandez was top-100 in 2018-2019 and, as per mlb.com has “tumbled” since. So, again, my point is that the general theory that Rays guys are great evaluators, if consistently applied, would assume that they know something if they are dumping him in surprising fashion. If we assume they erred in their assessments, then in the future we should not bash people don’t automatically assume all assessments are infallible.
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Post by julyanmorley on Feb 17, 2021 9:58:51 GMT -5
I think it's fine, but this trade doesn't really excite me. Springs and Mazza are both pre-arby, probably above replacement level and not eating up 40 man roster spots anymore. That has real value. Hernandez is talented but looks a little like fool's gold to me. He only has two options left and is eating up a 40 man spot. That's tough for a guy who has only reached High-A and didn't exactly light the league up.
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Post by fdrnewdeal on Feb 17, 2021 10:00:33 GMT -5
This trade is a complete slam dunk. They got a legit prospect, and a versatile org guy with some skills, for two players who were not a part of the long term plan.
Even if Hernandez never becomes anything, this was a good deal.
It's also nice that Boston is deep enough at SP and RP that they don't need to rely on guys like Mazza.
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Post by vermontsox1 on Feb 17, 2021 10:04:38 GMT -5
I think it's fine, but this trade doesn't really excite me. Springs and Mazza are both pre-arby, probably above replacement level and not eating up 40 man roster spots anymore. That has real value. Hernandez is talented but looks a little like fool's gold to me. He only has two options left and is eating up a 40 man spot. That's tough for a guy who has only reached High-A and didn't exactly light the league up. I mean, the Rays obviously believed they would be claimed prior to their waiver position otherwise why trade for them? There's no way they were clearing waivers and remaining with the Red Sox. Getting something legit seems like a pretty solid win, because they could have easily lost both for nothing.
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Post by julyanmorley on Feb 17, 2021 10:06:37 GMT -5
You're right, I misread one of Alex Speier's tweets.
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Post by The Town Sports Cards on Feb 17, 2021 10:07:46 GMT -5
Nice HR off Major Leaguer Trevor Richards:
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Post by sarasoxer on Feb 17, 2021 10:12:39 GMT -5
This trade is a complete slam dunk. They got a legit prospect, and a versatile org guy with some skills, for two players who were not a part of the long term plan. Even if Hernandez never becomes anything, this was a good deal. It's also nice that Boston is deep enough at SP and RP that they don't need to rely on guys like Mazza. Yes. And it's not about winning vs losing a trade...beating the other guy. It's about potentially making us better at no risk. Good trade.
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badfishnbc
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Doing you all a favor and leaving through the gate in right field since 2012.
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Post by badfishnbc on Feb 17, 2021 10:15:35 GMT -5
This really feels like the first Theo offseason, in which he took flyers on Giambi, Mueller, Millar and Ortiz. Nothing splashy, followed by Kapler and Bellhorn the next year. Sure, we all remember the BK and Schilling trades, but it's the under-the-radar (unless you were Gammons touting the crap out of Papi) moves that won us a title in 2004.
This one might be more Giambi than Ortiz, but if it even leans otherwise, we get a few good moments that help build into something bigger.
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Post by incandenza on Feb 17, 2021 10:15:52 GMT -5
Geez man, you're crapping on Bloom turning Springs and Mazza into an actual prospect? (Not sure why Hernandez is just an "org guy" to you.) And then you impute a totally invented argument to a commenter who was making a very valid point. You often take a more pessimistic stance, which is fine, but this just seems kind of sour. First off, my post was hardly a nuclear bomb. More to the point, I was *gently* gesturing at how when the Sox trade *for* flawed guys, we like to say “they see something they can fix.” When we trade away flawed guys, we say “suckers.” If this trade were run in reverse, people would say “man, we gave up a couple lower tiered prospects for two major-league level arms? Guys with a little work could be real contributors? What a trade!” There are people who liked Springs and Mazza last year... even this year! This is why my reaction to trades like this is generally “meh” — this can be read many ways (depending on your bias), and will have no effect on this season (unless Mazza or Springs pitch well for the Rays, in which case this will help them in a competitive race for third place). Add: Hernandez was top-100 in 2018-2019 and, as per mlb.com has “tumbled” since. So, again, my point is that the general theory that Rays guys are great evaluators, if consistently applied, would assume that they know something if they are dumping him in surprising fashion. If we assume they erred in their assessments, then in the future we should not bash people don’t automatically assume all assessments are infallible. If this trade were run in reverse and we were giving up Dalbec (roughly comparable to Hernandez, per fangraphs) for... Springs and Mazza... I think people here would be apoplectic.
If you are high on Springs and Mazza then you could make that case. (Personally I never saw much in them, so that's one reason I think this trade is a coup.) But the full content of your comment was that Hernandez was an "org guy" (you haven't explained the basis for your view that he has no prospect value) and then a non-sequitur straw man argument implying that there are people who think the Rays are incapable of making mistakes.
And of course that sets aside the fact that the Rays and Red Sox have different needs. Trades don't have to be zero-sum, and in fact they usually aren't; the Rays' farm system is so strong they probably won't even notice this guy is gone, but maybe see a hole to fill in their current pitching depth with Springs and Mazza. So we don't have to posit that the Rays are making some egregious mistake for this to be a good trade from the Sox' perspective.
Having said that... the thought did cross my mind that maybe there is some behind-the-scenes drama with Hernandez and the Rays were like "we gotta get this guy out of the house, let's call up our old buddy Chaim." But that's just wild speculation and I think it's a lot more likely that the explanation is just banal: Bloom likes Hernandez more than the Rays do, the Rays like Mazza/Springs more than Bloom does, and both orgs are filling their respective needs.
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