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Red Sox Trade Springs and Mazza to the Rays
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Post by soxfanatic on Feb 17, 2021 10:16:49 GMT -5
Welcome back Deivy Grullón, ohh... wait.
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Post by hutch04901 on Feb 17, 2021 10:18:32 GMT -5
Interesting (to me) bit of trivia. Nick Sogard's dad Steven played baseball and football at Tufts University. Red Sox fan?
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Post by mwgray13 on Feb 17, 2021 10:25:22 GMT -5
Another great move by Bloom. Sox are getting a quality starting catching/hitting prospect and a back up infield prospect for 2 guys they just DFAed. Mazza was a wavier claim, and Springs was a trade acquisition for ... Sam Travis. This is a good return.
In all honesty, I think this is a win win for both teams. Rays get more pitching depth for this year and the Sox get a couple of prospects. I think Mazza could provide some bulk league average innings and Springs could be the 6th man in a bullpen. Neither had particularly great 2020 but Between them you could get 100-130 innings of average pitching or 7-10% of the innings in the year.
When I look back on Bloom’s 1st year / 18 months, I’m impressed by the fact he has brought in close to a full minor league team of quality prospects / mlb ready players through trades, and claims without committing huge money to free agents. He has only spent short money (about $40M this year and $20M next year and beyond) a few high upside players. This team will compete in ‘22 and beyond and if things fall into place we could compete this year as well.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Feb 17, 2021 10:27:53 GMT -5
This is such a good trade it makes me wonder what the Rays know about Hernandez
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Post by iakovos11 on Feb 17, 2021 10:30:15 GMT -5
Geez man, you're crapping on Bloom turning Springs and Mazza into an actual prospect? (Not sure why Hernandez is just an "org guy" to you.) And then you impute a totally invented argument to a commenter who was making a very valid point. You often take a more pessimistic stance, which is fine, but this just seems kind of sour. First off, my post was hardly a nuclear bomb. More to the point, I was *gently* gesturing at how when the Sox trade *for* flawed guys, we like to say “they see something they can fix.” When we trade away flawed guys, we say “suckers.” If this trade were run in reverse, people would say “man, we gave up a couple lower tiered prospects for two major-league level arms? Guys with a little work could be real contributors? What a trade!” There are people who liked Springs and Mazza last year... even this year! This is why my reaction to trades like this is generally “meh” — this can be read many ways (depending on your bias), and will have no effect on this season (unless Mazza or Springs pitch well for the Rays, in which case this will help them in a competitive race for third place). Add: Hernandez was top-100 in 2018-2019 and, as per mlb.com has “tumbled” since. So, again, my point is that the general theory that Rays guys are great evaluators, if consistently applied, would assume that they know something if they are dumping him in surprising fashion. If we assume they erred in their assessments, then in the future we should not bash people don’t automatically assume all assessments are infallible. Not every trade is a win-lose scenario. Boston clearly isn't "going for it" this year. So Mazza and Springs have little value in that regard. Plus they were both recently DFA'd. Did you forget about that. They could be claimed for nothing. So the Sox got a solid org guy and a legit prospect for 2 guys they were likely to lose for nothing anyway.
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jimoh
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Post by jimoh on Feb 17, 2021 10:33:33 GMT -5
[...] This is why my reaction to trades like this is generally “meh” — this can be read many ways (depending on your bias), and will have no effect on this season (unless Mazza or Springs pitch well for the Rays, in which case this will help them in a competitive race for third place). [...] This trade will have no impact on the season unless Bloom includes Hernandez as part of a package for a key piece, calling upon the depth he has built up.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Feb 17, 2021 10:40:57 GMT -5
This is one of your favorite trades? Org. guys all around? I am afraid I am confused by the mise-en-abyme of it all: Bloom is a genius because of his Rays training, so he has mastered the art of sending guys we know are not valuable to chumps who don’t. Bbuuuuutttt.... this is to the RAYS, masters of knowing which prospects will bust and wizards of finding low hanging fruit. To believe Bloom has won, we must trust his Rays training; if he has won, then the Rays lose.... and then.... what... becomes.... of.... his... training??? Did O. Henry write this story? Geez man, you're crapping on Bloom turning Springs and Mazza into an actual prospect? (Not sure why Hernandez is just an "org guy" to you.) And then you impute a totally invented argument to a commenter who was making a very valid point. You often take a more pessimistic stance, which is fine, but this just seems kind of sour. Have to agree with Manfred here. Sure, the Sox turned 2 AAAA discards into 2 longshot prospects, but let's please stop with the highway robbery have been seeing here and elsewhere. TB wouldn't have given up on Hernandez had they not spotted various warts with him. Teams don't just give up top prospects for DFA'd players who have had no success at the MLB level and in their late 20's and early 30's.
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jimoh
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Post by jimoh on Feb 17, 2021 10:41:56 GMT -5
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Feb 17, 2021 10:42:49 GMT -5
Geez man, you're crapping on Bloom turning Springs and Mazza into an actual prospect? (Not sure why Hernandez is just an "org guy" to you.) And then you impute a totally invented argument to a commenter who was making a very valid point. You often take a more pessimistic stance, which is fine, but this just seems kind of sour. Have to agree with Manfred here. Sure, the Sox turned 2 AAAA discards into 2 longshot prospects, but let's please stop with the highway robbery have been seeing here and elsewhere. TB wouldn't have given up on Hernandez had they not spotted various warts with him. Teams don't just give up top prospects for DFA'd players who have had no success at the MLB level and in their late 20's and early 30's. Nobody is saying he’s a top prospect, but he is certainly an actual prospect! Something our AAAA arms are not. If people honestly complain about this move I think they have something wrong with their brains. THEY JUST CUT BOTH MAZZA AND SPRINGS for heavens sake Hernandez is ranked in the teens by every publication and he was a member of arguably the best farm system in baseball. He’s not a perfect prospect but clearly there’s upside there. For guys that I ideally didn’t want to see pitch in a Sox uniform ever again
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jimoh
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Post by jimoh on Feb 17, 2021 10:43:37 GMT -5
Geez man, you're crapping on Bloom turning Springs and Mazza into an actual prospect? (Not sure why Hernandez is just an "org guy" to you.) And then you impute a totally invented argument to a commenter who was making a very valid point. You often take a more pessimistic stance, which is fine, but this just seems kind of sour. Have to agree with Manfred here. Sure, the Sox turned 2 AAAA discards into 2 longshot prospects, but let's please stop with the highway robbery have been seeing here and elsewhere. TB wouldn't have given up on Hernandez had they not spotted various warts with him. Teams don't just give up top prospects for DFA'd players who have had no success at the MLB level and in their late 20's and early 30's. Please let's stop with the straw man arguments.
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Post by incandenza on Feb 17, 2021 10:47:02 GMT -5
Geez man, you're crapping on Bloom turning Springs and Mazza into an actual prospect? (Not sure why Hernandez is just an "org guy" to you.) And then you impute a totally invented argument to a commenter who was making a very valid point. You often take a more pessimistic stance, which is fine, but this just seems kind of sour. Have to agree with Manfred here. Sure, the Sox turned 2 AAAA discards into 2 longshot prospects, but let's please stop with the highway robbery have been seeing here and elsewhere. TB wouldn't have given up on Hernandez had they not spotted various warts with him. Teams don't just give up top prospects for DFA'd players who have had no success at the MLB level and in their late 20's and early 30's.I appreciate the logic here: "This trade can't be that good since we gave up so little!"
Anyway, no one said Hernandez was a top prospect or didn't have warts; everyone praising this trade is just impressed that Bloom got a legit prospect at all.
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jimoh
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Post by jimoh on Feb 17, 2021 10:47:41 GMT -5
Note that Ian Cundall tweets that the Rays "also acquired 3 catchers this offseason, so Hernandez likely had been pushed down the depth chart and they probably needed the 40-man spot for another area."
Red Sox acquired enough pitching to make this pair less valuable to them, and have few catching prospects. Rays acquired catchers that made Hernandez less valuable to them, but presumably need pitching. Sox also have been going after RHH pull-hitters with power.
Could the 6' 1" Hernandez be a future 1b?
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Feb 17, 2021 10:52:04 GMT -5
Note that Ian Cundall tweets that the Rays "also acquired 3 catchers this offseason, so Hernandez likely had been pushed down the depth chart and they probably needed the 40-man spot for another area." Red Sox acquired enough pitching to make this pair less valuable to them, and have few catching prospects. Rays acquired catchers that made Hernandez less valuable to them, but presumably need pitching. Sox also have been going after RHH pull-hitters with power. Could the 6' 1" Hernandez be a future 1b? My perception of the Rays is that from watching them they don’t really care about getting offense from the catcher position. They prioritize the other stuff first and that’s seemingly where Hernandez has the most flaws. But if Hernandez ends up a MLB catcher with a solid bat, some pop, and a sub par glove that’s still pretty damn valuable
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Post by agastonguay13 on Feb 17, 2021 10:53:51 GMT -5
I like this off-season Bloom has had as a whole. Even going back to the trade deadline.
He started smaller, find the deals where you can trade a $1000 beater of a car for a $1500 beater and keep going. I believe they call it dickering here in Maine. Those deals brought an influx of middle of the road depth that now allows them to move some of their roster flotsam for targeted pieces to bring in and build around.
Next step is going to be packaging 2-3 of those type guys and a higher end prospect (Downs, maybe) for a higher end major league producer. Probably not this season, but next off-season.
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jimoh
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Post by jimoh on Feb 17, 2021 10:54:08 GMT -5
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Post by sibbysisti on Feb 17, 2021 10:55:31 GMT -5
The top ranked catcher in the system is Connor Wong at #21. I have to believe Ronaldo comes in somewhere in the mid teens. I note that he is already listed by SP as the starting catcher at Portland.
Turn Varitek loose on him and we’ll see his defensive weaknesses strengthened .
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Post by johnsilver52 on Feb 17, 2021 11:09:39 GMT -5
Note that Ian Cundall tweets that the Rays "also acquired 3 catchers this offseason, so Hernandez likely had been pushed down the depth chart and they probably needed the 40-man spot for another area." Red Sox acquired enough pitching to make this pair less valuable to them, and have few catching prospects. Rays acquired catchers that made Hernandez less valuable to them, but presumably need pitching. Sox also have been going after RHH pull-hitters with power. Could the 6' 1" Hernandez be a future 1b? That team has really reeked at catching for the most part for years, with 1-2y exceptions off and on. Remember several years back when the near 40yo Jose Molina was the starting catcher for a couple of years? While he was decent in his prime, he was a shell of his former self and an example pretty much of what they have fielded for the last 20y more than half the time.
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Post by mikeyg413 on Feb 17, 2021 11:10:06 GMT -5
This is honestly one of my favorite Bloom era trades. It feels like the type of trade you pull in a video game, trading guys you were cutting anyways for prospects. The type of trade you would just never see in the Dombrowski era, in part because Dombrowski never would have accumulated excess depth guys like this in the first place. This is one of your favorite trades? Org. guys all around? I am afraid I am confused by the mise-en-abyme of it all: Bloom is a genius because of his Rays training, so he has mastered the art of sending guys we know are not valuable to chumps who don’t. Bbuuuuutttt.... this is to the RAYS, masters of knowing which prospects will bust and wizards of finding low hanging fruit. To believe Bloom has won, we must trust his Rays training; if he has won, then the Rays lose.... and then.... what... becomes.... of.... his... training??? Did O. Henry write this story? I’m just starting to think you’re trying to find any reason to crap on Bloom at this point. Turning these two fringe pitchers into a legit catching prospect is magical and there’s no way around that. It speaks volumes about the depth Bloom has built in the system as well. Not that Mazza/Springs actually we’re gonna play an important role anyway, but to get a top 20 org prospect in return for them is just insane, how does he do it.
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Post by vermontsox1 on Feb 17, 2021 11:13:50 GMT -5
Hat tip to Red Sox Stats for retweeting this:
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Post by greenmonster on Feb 17, 2021 11:23:14 GMT -5
I really have no problem with this trade. Springs and Mazza had both been DFA'd. If Hernandez develops into something thats great, if he doesn't then nothing lost. The point that Manfred raises is legitimate, what (if anything) has tempered TB's view of Hernandez? Reading the scouting summary makes me a bit pessimistic as I prefer a catcher who can......umm...catch. Comparisons to Gary Sanchez make me think passed balls. Not the type of guy to trust your pitching staff with. As others have pointed out, the Sox system can use some catching depth.
The idea about moving him to 1B is an interesting thought
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kevfc89
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Post by kevfc89 on Feb 17, 2021 11:28:54 GMT -5
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Post by Canseco on Feb 17, 2021 11:32:27 GMT -5
Textbook doofus sports fan burn: “There are Rays fans?”
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Post by DesignatedForAssignment on Feb 17, 2021 11:43:59 GMT -5
Sox are at 42 minus Sale.
They should throw Walden into the trade
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Feb 17, 2021 11:47:45 GMT -5
Sox are at 42 minus Sale. They should throw Walden into the trade Have to assume something else is coming. Even if it means flipping the guys they just got.
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Post by greenmonster on Feb 17, 2021 11:52:40 GMT -5
Sox are at 42 minus Sale. They should throw Walden into the trade Have to assume something else is coming. Even if it means flipping the guys they just got. Have to agree... Especially if reports of interest in Heller/Jeffress/Roe have any merit
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