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Post by vermontsox1 on Mar 2, 2021 9:23:27 GMT -5
Ben Badler released his first rankings (based off of bonus) for the next signing period. None of the 20 players are linked to the Red Sox, so it looks like they probably won't be giving out a Bleis-sized bonus next period. www.baseballamerica.com/rankings/2021-22-mlb-international-prospects-big-board/The signing period is technically supposed to start on July 2, 2021 but will probably be pushed to January 15, 2022. There's also a chance we get an international draft, but my guess is that they probably won't have time to implement before the next signing period.
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Addam603
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Post by Addam603 on Mar 2, 2021 9:45:12 GMT -5
Looking forward to the overreactions about not being connected to anyone in the top 20.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Mar 2, 2021 10:54:19 GMT -5
Looking forward to the overreactions about not being connected to anyone in the top 20. As opposed to the over-excitement when the Red Sox are connected with somebody from the top 20?
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Mar 2, 2021 11:14:29 GMT -5
Looking forward to the overreactions about not being connected to anyone in the top 20. As opposed to the over-excitement when the Red Sox are connected with somebody from the top 20? He's referring to the specific posts that come up every year wondering why they haven't been so linked.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Mar 2, 2021 12:23:48 GMT -5
As opposed to the over-excitement when the Red Sox are connected with somebody from the top 20? He's referring to the specific posts that come up every year wondering why they haven't been so linked. I know. I was being a wisenheimer. Sometimes highly rated prospects are just what they're hyped to be and sometimes they're not. Conversely, guys we've never heard of getting signed for peanuts can turn out to be superstars. I mean, if the Sox had signed somebody like that Dominguez kid the Yankees signed, I'd think we'd all be over the moon, but we also know that there are plenty of guys who aren't as highly projected that can turn into something unexpected.
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Post by tyler3 on Mar 2, 2021 12:27:48 GMT -5
All right well I’ll be the guy this year to get it going. Surely it would not be a bad thing to sign a guy considered in the top 20 in talent. I do get spreading it around . I get guys like Mata being signed for almost nothing. Still been awhile since we got a top ranked guy.
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Post by ramireja on Mar 2, 2021 14:02:45 GMT -5
All right well I’ll be the guy this year to get it going. Surely it would not be a bad thing to sign a guy considered in the top 20 in talent. I do get spreading it around . I get guys like Mata being signed for almost nothing. Still been awhile since we got a top ranked guy. I think the pushback to this line of thinking, is that these lists are primarily derived from bonus size and are not a composite of talent rankings as sourced by the publication's staff/scouts and other scouting sources. With scouting being particularly limited internationally this year, this is particularly true.
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Post by bradythomas on Mar 2, 2021 16:14:05 GMT -5
So with the fourth largest bonus pool, it is a bit disappointing to not be the favorite for any of the top 20. That said, there is only one pitcher in the top 20. I would be more excited if the Sox were linked to a number of the top remaining pitchers.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Mar 2, 2021 16:23:19 GMT -5
So with the fourth largest bonus pool, it is a bit disappointing to not be the favorite for any of the top 20. That said, there is only one pitcher in the top 20. I would be more excited if the Sox were linked to a number of the top remaining pitchers. IFA bonus pools have nothing to do with standings. They're set based on whether a team receives revenue sharing and signed any QO free agents.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Mar 2, 2021 16:25:09 GMT -5
All right well I’ll be the guy this year to get it going. Surely it would not be a bad thing to sign a guy considered in the top 20 in talent. I do get spreading it around . I get guys like Mata being signed for almost nothing. Still been awhile since we got a top ranked guy. I think the pushback to this line of thinking, is that these lists are primarily derived from bonus size and are not a composite of talent rankings as sourced by the publication's staff/scouts and other scouting sources. With scouting being particularly limited internationally this year, this is particularly true. And it's such a wild west scenario still that bonus size isn't necessarily going to be based on talent alone. It's more structured than it used to be, but just go listen to our interview with him and some of the stories he told - sometimes it's just that you get to a guy first. But yes, Badler's list is based entirely on bonus size without any subjective evaluation. Wouldn't be bad to have someone on there, but it's not worth complaining about, and every year someone does.
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badfishnbc
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Doing you all a favor and leaving through the gate in right field since 2012.
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Post by badfishnbc on Mar 5, 2021 15:11:06 GMT -5
Remember, these deals are done like a year or two before the kids sign. Something I've been wondering about (and feel free to move this to the Int'l thread if appropriate) - how does a team target high-dollar international signings several years in advance without knowing how large a pool they'll have? Seems like a distinct disadvantage for teams who generally would project to have successful, top-third of the league seasons to suddenly gain a windfall of pool money when they bottom out suddenly and then need to figure out how it should be spent.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Mar 5, 2021 17:44:35 GMT -5
Remember, these deals are done like a year or two before the kids sign. Something I've been wondering about (and feel free to move this to the Int'l thread if appropriate) - how does a team target high-dollar international signings several years in advance without knowing how large a pool they'll have? Seems like a distinct disadvantage for teams who generally would project to have successful, top-third of the league seasons to suddenly gain a windfall of pool money when they bottom out suddenly and then need to figure out how it should be spent. As I mention above, the bonus pools have nothing to do with the standings. They're related to revenue sharing (and QO free agents).
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Post by johnsilver52 on Mar 5, 2021 18:35:13 GMT -5
So with the fourth largest bonus pool, it is a bit disappointing to not be the favorite for any of the top 20. That said, there is only one pitcher in the top 20. I would be more excited if the Sox were linked to a number of the top remaining pitchers. IFA bonus pools have nothing to do with standings. They're set based on whether a team receives revenue sharing and signed any QO free agents. Sign that they will ink a boatload of kids tho more than likely and continue to run 2 DSL teams. "maybe" 2 GCL teams as well??? I've got no issues with running thru more of these kids that throwing out a massive amount (1-3m) to a cpl, then bottom feeding on half as many. No offense, but bust rate is pretty high and I'd like to see them run more of the mid-lower kids inked and top out at the 1-300k figure. Spend the resources on coaching and extra teams at DSL and GCL support.
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Post by vermontsox1 on Apr 1, 2021 22:29:53 GMT -5
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Post by freddysthefuture2003 on Apr 1, 2021 22:47:48 GMT -5
Right on, this is the info I was looking for, but mistakenly posted on the draft thread
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Post by dyoungteach on Apr 2, 2021 3:18:16 GMT -5
IFA bonus pools have nothing to do with standings. They're set based on whether a team receives revenue sharing and signed any QO free agents. Sign that they will ink a boatload of kids tho more than likely and continue to run 2 DSL teams. "maybe" 2 GCL teams as well??? I've got no issues with running thru more of these kids that throwing out a massive amount (1-3m) to a cpl, then bottom feeding on half as many. No offense, but bust rate is pretty high and I'd like to see them run more of the mid-lower kids inked and top out at the 1-300k figure. Spend the resources on coaching and extra teams at DSL and GCL support. —————————— Not complaining BUT am shocked also. I truly believe dombrowski cut funds from international scouting ( not signing) and didn’t spend as much there. In turn the relationships took a turn for not as good, which has us not agreeing to contracts with young high end international talent. We all know this high end talent agrees to deals 1-3 years out. So bloom hasn’t been able to plant his stamp on the program yet. And yes we have a great system it seems; but that doesn’t mean it can’t improve and be a lot better. I’ll pick two names. ( Rafael devers. Anderson Espinosa ). Now devers has made an impact and was of higher rated guys. Espinosa was rated high and I believe could have gotten an even bigger return in trade than he did. Both are examples of why money DOES matter too. It needs to be mixed. My simple way of saying I believe the international signings can improve by a good margin even though it’s above average now. Let’s see if we can’t become the next rays, dodgers, or Yankees who I feel all have better international groups than ours. But admittedly that comes from someone who wants to be the best not just above average as I feel it’s an opportunity missed
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Apr 2, 2021 6:51:06 GMT -5
There is no reason to think that at all. They gave Daniel Flores $3.1M during the Dombrowski tenure and did fine on the international market procuring talent. Eddie Romero was promoted during Dombrowski's tenure, showing how much they valued the job he was doing in that department.
We have developed a tendency to demonize Dombrowski and I think it's largely (not entirely) not called for.
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Post by dyoungteach on Apr 2, 2021 8:29:45 GMT -5
There is no reason to think that at all. They gave Daniel Flores $3.1M during the Dombrowski tenure and did fine on the international market procuring talent. Eddie Romero was promoted during Dombrowski's tenure, showing how much they valued the job he was doing in that department. We have developed a tendency to demonize Dombrowski and I think it's largely (not entirely) not called for. —————— I guess we will know over next few years how well dombrowskis term treated procured quality international talent. 1 major talent does not a good program make. I disagree in terms of dombrowski and his development of talent. He’s great at using money to identify top end talent at major league level and plugging holes using money. He is very poor at development of minor league talent. I haven’t really taken a look at talent he signed and even where they are ranked honestly. Eddie Romero was promoted but that doesn’t really mean much as his role changed when he was promoted and he was almost lost prior to the promotion ( pirates I believe)
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Post by vermontsox1 on Apr 2, 2021 8:50:22 GMT -5
There is no reason to think that at all. They gave Daniel Flores $3.1M during the Dombrowski tenure and did fine on the international market procuring talent. Eddie Romero was promoted during Dombrowski's tenure, showing how much they valued the job he was doing in that department. We have developed a tendency to demonize Dombrowski and I think it's largely (not entirely) not called for. —————— I guess we will know over next few years how well dombrowskis term treated procured quality international talent. 1 major talent does not a good program make. I disagree in terms of dombrowski and his development of talent. He’s great at using money to identify top end talent at major league level and plugging holes using money. He is very poor at development of minor league talent. I haven’t really taken a look at talent he signed and even where they are ranked honestly. Eddie Romero was promoted but that doesn’t really mean much as his role changed when he was promoted and he was almost lost prior to the promotion ( pirates I believe) The bolded sentences above don't seem like they should go together. Either way, Dombrowski (and now Bloom) probably don't have much influence over the acquisition of international amateur talent - Eddie Romero has run the show for many years.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Apr 2, 2021 9:33:54 GMT -5
Yeah, "I think he did a poor job although I really haven't taken the time to look at it" ain't it.
Keep in mind that the Red Sox didn't have much of a 2015-16 international class because they'd gone over the previous season, then literally didn't have a 16-17 class because they were penalized for allegedly using package deals to get around their 15-16 penalty. That's essentially (although not entirely given that Mata was in that 15-16 class) two years without any international guy who signed for more than $250k. They came back in 17-18 and signed three seven-figure guys and have next to nothing to show for it (although the Daniel Flores part is unique, the stars for Antoni Flores and Danny Diaz have fallen pretty quickly).
Context is also important. There's hard capping on the international market now. You can't sign multiple guys for huge deals without having to trade for more cap space. Before complaining at how the Red Sox are spending you'd need to compare it to what other teams are doing - it's not like the Yankees are spending $80 million while the Red Sox slum it up at $5 million.
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Post by dyoungteach on Apr 2, 2021 9:37:04 GMT -5
—————— I guess we will know over next few years how well dombrowskis term treated procured quality international talent. 1 major talent does not a good program make. I disagree in terms of dombrowski and his development of talent. He’s great at using money to identify top end talent at major league level and plugging holes using money. He is very poor at development of minor league talent. I haven’t really taken a look at talent he signed and even where they are ranked honestly. Eddie Romero was promoted but that doesn’t really mean much as his role changed when he was promoted and he was almost lost prior to the promotion ( pirates I believe) The bolded sentences above don't seem like they should go together. Either way, Dombrowski (and now Bloom) probably don't have much influence over the acquisition of international amateur talent - Eddie Romero has run the show for many years. ———————- So the general manager doesn’t have any influence on how much money is spent on scouting or where to scout talent ( focus those funds)? I remember Douquette pushed the Asian market or Far East including Australia really hard and it was him directly that hires the scouts foe those areas. I find it hard to believe front offices don’t have direct influence on how much money is spent on scouting or the number of scouts in certain areas. I did double check the international signings during dombrowskis time. Now there is some potential but that’s it. Name an international signing during his years that has become a high end prospect ( where he will or has played quality minutes for Red Sox or been able to be traded by Red Sox for someone who does show quality production). Maybe I’m missing someone...? I did. Gilberto gimenez. So I come up with 1.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Apr 2, 2021 9:43:25 GMT -5
The bolded sentences above don't seem like they should go together. Either way, Dombrowski (and now Bloom) probably don't have much influence over the acquisition of international amateur talent - Eddie Romero has run the show for many years. ———————- So the general manager doesn’t have any influence on how much money is spent on scouting or where to scout talent ( focus those funds)? I remember Douquette pushed the Asian market or Far East including Australia really hard and it was him directly that hires the scouts foe those areas. I find it hard to believe front offices don’t have direct influence on how much money is spent on scouting or the number of scouts in certain areas. I did double check the international signings during dombrowskis time. Now there is some potential but that’s it. Name an international signing during his years that has become a high end prospect ( where he will or has played quality minutes for Red Sox or been able to be traded by Red Sox for someone who does show quality production). Maybe I’m missing someone...? I did. Gilberto gimenez. So I come up with 1. Read my post above. He was GM for 4 years and they were limited in what they could do in the first two of them. The rest of the guys have barely come stateside yet. And you missed Mata (unless you want to call the 15-16 class Cherington's, which is probably fair and in which case you're looking at a year in which they couldn't sign anyone and the last 3... which as I said, includes guys who aren't even in the U.S. yet).
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Post by dyoungteach on Apr 2, 2021 9:59:27 GMT -5
———————- So the general manager doesn’t have any influence on how much money is spent on scouting or where to scout talent ( focus those funds)? I remember Douquette pushed the Asian market or Far East including Australia really hard and it was him directly that hires the scouts foe those areas. I find it hard to believe front offices don’t have direct influence on how much money is spent on scouting or the number of scouts in certain areas. I did double check the international signings during dombrowskis time. Now there is some potential but that’s it. Name an international signing during his years that has become a high end prospect ( where he will or has played quality minutes for Red Sox or been able to be traded by Red Sox for someone who does show quality production). Maybe I’m missing someone...? I did. Gilberto gimenez. So I come up with 1. Read my post above. He was GM for 4 years and they were limited in what they could do in the first two of them. The rest of the guys have barely come stateside yet. And you missed Mata (unless you want to call the 15-16 class Cherington's, which is probably fair and in which case you're looking at a year in which they couldn't sign anyone and the last 3... which as I said, includes guys who aren't even in the U.S. yet). ————— I agree. As I said, potentially this is me just thinking to much. But the major signing last year came AFTER bloom was signed. There was a definite redirection of funds with the Mets international head signing on with team ( from Venezuela to Dominican). And yes many of these guys right now are eh who knows. Combined with pandemic so we aren’t able to see them stateside yet maybe it’s nothing. BUT it could definitely explain why we aren’t in on the high dollar signings also. Give it another year or 2 ( which I believe will see a draft). I’ll just end with this though. It’s not just the Red Sox. Dombrowski did this with tigers before Red Sox. And if he does it with Phillies, you have a definite pattern. ( on flip side he won a championship and brought us star players.. but this is one of the costs I suspect is tied to those decisions. ). Happy opening day. Let’s hope Red Sox season is way less frustrating than Celtics season. And thank you for the site and the update on international guys they are or could be signing!
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Apr 2, 2021 12:53:30 GMT -5
"There was a definite redirection of funds with the Mets international head signing on with team ( from Venezuela to Dominican)."
See, this is what I'm saying - no, there wasn't. What are you basing this on?
And what do you mean by Dombrowski "did this" with the Tigers? Directed funds away from international scouting? Do you have anything that actually says that? That's news to me. He ran three teams before the Red Sox and I've never heard about him directing funds away from amateur scouting.
And Becerra is just a special assistant in amateur and international scouting - I think he's essentially a special assignment scout. By the way, he was hired by Dombrowski, who apparently was ok allocating money to sign a former international scouting director as a special assistant, so that's another strike against the presumption that Dombrowski directed money away from international scouting.
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Post by dyoungteach on Apr 2, 2021 17:52:40 GMT -5
"There was a definite redirection of funds with the Mets international head signing on with team ( from Venezuela to Dominican)." See, this is what I'm saying - no, there wasn't. What are you basing this on? And what do you mean by Dombrowski "did this" with the Tigers? Directed funds away from international scouting? Do you have anything that actually says that? That's news to me. He ran three teams before the Red Sox and I've never heard about him directing funds away from amateur scouting. And Becerra is just a special assistant in amateur and international scouting - I think he's essentially a special assignment scout. By the way, he was hired by Dombrowski, who apparently was ok allocating money to sign a former international scouting director as a special assistant, so that's another strike against the presumption that Dombrowski directed money away from international scouting. ——————- We were signing most of our talent from Venezuela before. After the Becerra signing our signing have come more from Dominican. ( Ie redirection of funds). As for tigers. Absolutely!!! 100,000% they had zero international presence under dumbrowski. I’ve heard that directly from scouts from low levels here where I live. It was a fact with the low level ( now high class a team). You could see the prospects weren’t there from international and they didn’t compete at high level for international players. Now that he’s been gone tigers have been and are signing high end international signings. So yes I absolutely know 100,000% he reduced funds in Detroit. The excuses can be there. And maybe I’m wrong but facts don’t back this up. Especially if Red Sox return to signing expensive high end international prospects in the next 1-2 years.
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