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2021 Non-Red Sox Thread
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Post by manfred on May 7, 2021 15:47:48 GMT -5
I totally don't buy that. Arguing the point is going nowhere as we'll never know. Taking care of bodies etc. is also open to question as there are now and have always been guys who were out of shape and playing well and sometimes great in MLB. Then you have the fact that many starting pitchers used to throw an ungodly number of innings without breaking down. Anyhow, like I said this could go round and round so I'm good with anyone not agreeing with you opinion. I'm not saying I believe it or that I don't - I was throwing it out there. I've got no idea. Just throwing something I found out there, not trying to advance a point. But given the way we've seen the average velocity tick up even in the last 5 years though, I'm not sure why you're so dismissive in the other direction. That said, radar gun tech has improved over time as well, and typically has led to higher gun readings, so maybe that's overstated. Who knows? This seems totally plausible, even considering more recent history. When I was a kid, 90 was sort of a magic number. A guy throwing 92-93 was a hard thrower... not Nolan Ryan or anything, but a hard thrower. I can totally buy a pre-conditioning (and pre-bullpen) era of guys throwing in the 80s. It actually seems intuitive... the idea that guys were throwing harder back then is what would seem odd. It would mean all the advances in training, diet etc. had little effect.
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Post by patford on May 7, 2021 16:30:34 GMT -5
I'm not saying I believe it or that I don't - I was throwing it out there. I've got no idea. Just throwing something I found out there, not trying to advance a point. But given the way we've seen the average velocity tick up even in the last 5 years though, I'm not sure why you're so dismissive in the other direction. That said, radar gun tech has improved over time as well, and typically has led to higher gun readings, so maybe that's overstated. Who knows? This seems totally plausible, even considering more recent history. When I was a kid, 90 was sort of a magic number. A guy throwing 92-93 was a hard thrower... not Nolan Ryan or anything, but a hard thrower. I can totally buy a pre-conditioning (and pre-bullpen) era of guys throwing in the 80s. It actually seems intuitive... the idea that guys were throwing harder back then is what would seem odd. It would mean all the advances in training, diet etc. had little effect. Track and most other sports are not a good comparison to baseball. In the first place it used to be that baseball was the only sport where a team's worth of athletes at the highest level could make a living. For that reason I suspect that guys who were good at sports oriented towards...what was it called? America's Pastime. In the case of track and filed you're talking about a sport where training figures in at a much higher level than throwing or hitting a baseball. Was Pedro ever a physical specimen? Was Koufax? Maddux, Seaver? Or Nolan Ryan. Was he a workout king or did he have one of those Ranch Hand bodies? Isn't our old pal Pablo Sandoval still starting games in MLB? And didn't Ted Williams say that Bob Feller was the fastest pitcher he ever hit against or saw? What is measurable across eras is the distance baseballs were hit. We know about the Williams red seat. And we know about what Ruth did. www.baseball-almanac.com/feats/art_hr.shtml
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gerry
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Post by gerry on May 7, 2021 16:36:19 GMT -5
A quick take on different eras. There was no Gatorade or health food. Babe Ruth and his team mates regularly drank beer, ate hot dogs in the dugout and clubhouse. LOLOL at the Chicken and Beer Scandal. During prohibition slim silver flasks were also common. The Babe’s roustabout reputation was well earned. There also were no weight rooms and other modern amenities.
Most MLB players worked in the long offseason. They ate themselves out of shape from lunchboxes and at diners. A guy carrying hods of bricks all day stayed strong, while a car salesman got weaker. Neither maintained baseball shape. That is precisely what ST was for, and it was a great perk getting paid to leave the snow and their jobs, for Florida, and then California. (The Cubs site on Catalina Island is still there) and Az. I was lucky to party with the younger Sox and Cubs players at ST in Scottsdale when I worked there in the mid-60’s. Party hardy was the norm. Tony C sang at a couple of clubs. Very cool. The era of full time baseball, expansion, weight programs, using planes for distant travel, etc were in their infancy.
Up through Jackie Jensen’s era, all teams took long train rides on “sleepers” using Pullman Berths. It was certainly a more regional game (northeast and Midwest only) but these were long, pleasant trips riding the rails. Food was gourmet meat and potatoes with a veggie if you wanted.
Ted Williams and most of his team mates smoked and chewed tobacco, constantly. Those habits only ended late 20th century. Athletes were in better shape than non-athletes, but not the sculpted icons of today.
Bats were yet to be engineered in a granular way. You could choose only among a couple of glove types that really did need to be oiled and run over with a car to gain flexibility. Equipment was minimal. Training was minimal. Uniforms were itchy wool, not conducive to performance perfection during hot, humid, often rainy summers.
Paths to the Majors? High school baseball was largely on rocky infields, uneven outfields, and coached by teachers. A career in the majors may have been everyone’s dream but reality meant getting a “real” job.
College and independent league baseball wasn’t much better but drew more scouts. At the urging of a west coast scout, two top FO Red Sox went by train to California to check out several local stars, including Mexican American phenom Ted Williams. Yes, Yawkey and crew knew Ted was Mexican and signed him anyways in 1939. For context, this was at a time in which many middle aged WWI vets had also fought against Pancho Villa, and were still around, and the intense level of bias against Mexican Americans was high in the dominant white world of soCal. (This will raise hackles, but as someone familiar with the often violent racial struggles here in SoCal, kudos to Tom Yawkey and the Sox for this signing which changed the game.)
In summary, early players lived through events we can barely imagine: two world wars, The 1918 virus, Polio, TB, Measles and other horrible outbreaks, Prohibition, the Great Depression, travel by horse, bus and train,and conditions in the game that could be called primitive by today’s extraordinary standards.
IMHO, if Ruth or Woods or Williams were being scouted as college freshmen today, after excellent youth, high school and college coaches and trainers brought them to this point, it is as likely as not that today’s teams and fans and their media would be drooling over them as among the top five or ten in their draft class.
Conversely, if potato farmer Yaz barnstormed around New York a century ago (and survived the Spanish Flu and WWI) he could also wind up playing for the nyfy. Talent is talent. Developing and expressing that talent really seems to be time specific.
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Post by incandenza on May 7, 2021 17:00:11 GMT -5
A quick take on different eras. There was no Gatorade or health food. Babe Ruth and his team mates regularly drank beer, ate hot dogs in the dugout and clubhouse. LOLOL at the Chicken and Beer Scandal. During prohibition slim silver flasks were also common. The Babe’s roustabout reputation was well earned. There also were no weight rooms and other modern amenities. Most MLB players worked in the long offseason. They ate themselves out of shape from lunchboxes and at diners. A guy carrying hods of bricks all day stayed strong, while a car salesman got weaker. Neither maintained baseball shape. That is precisely what ST was for, and it was a great perk getting paid to leave the snow and their jobs, for Florida, and then California. (The Cubs site on Catalina Island is still there) and Az. I was lucky to party with the younger Sox and Cubs players at ST in Scottsdale when I worked there in the mid-60’s. Party hardy was the norm. Tony C sang at a couple of clubs. Very cool. The era of full time baseball, expansion, weight programs, using planes for distant travel, etc were in their infancy. Up through Jackie Jensen’s era, all teams took long train rides on “sleepers” using Pullman Berths. It was certainly a more regional game (northeast and Midwest only) but these were long, pleasant trips riding the rails. Food was gourmet meat and potatoes with a veggie if you wanted. Ted Williams and most of his team mates smoked and chewed tobacco, constantly. Those habits only ended late 20th century. Athletes were in better shape than non-athletes, but not the sculpted icons of today. Bats were yet to be engineered in a granular way. You could choose only among a couple of glove types that really did need to be oiled and run over with a car to gain flexibility. Equipment was minimal. Training was minimal. Uniforms were itchy wool, not conducive to performance perfection during hot, humid, often rainy summers. Paths to the Majors? High school baseball was largely on rocky infields, uneven outfields, and coached by teachers. A career in the majors may have been everyone’s dream but reality meant getting a “real” job. College and independent league baseball wasn’t much better but drew more scouts. At the urging of a west coast scout, two top FO Red Sox went by train to California to check out several local stars, including Mexican American phenom Ted Williams. Yes, Yawkey and crew knew Ted was Mexican and signed him anyways in 1939. For context, this was at a time in which many middle aged WWI vets had also fought against Pancho Villa, and were still around, and the intense level of bias against Mexican Americans was high in the dominant white world of soCal. (This will raise hackles, but as someone familiar with the often violent racial struggles here in SoCal, kudos to Tom Yawkey and the Sox for this signing which changed the game.) In summary, early players lived through events we can barely imagine: two world wars, The 1918 virus, Polio, TB, Measles and other horrible outbreaks, Prohibition, the Great Depression, travel by horse, bus and train,and conditions in the game that could be called primitive by today’s extraordinary standards. IMHO, if Ruth or Woods or Williams were being scouted as college freshmen today, after excellent youth, high school and college coaches and trainers brought them to this point, it is as likely as not that today’s teams and fans and their media would be drooling over them as among the top five or ten in their draft class. Conversely, if potato farmer Yaz barnstormed around New York a century ago (and survived the Spanish Flu and WWI) he could also wind up playing for the nyfy. Talent is talent. Developing and expressing that talent really seems to be time specific. This was a fun comment to read! And I agree with the conclusion. Old timey athletes as they were wouldn't last a week in any contemporary sport. But if you trained them up and gave them a modern diet and all the rest, the best would still shine; and contemporary athletes time-portaled to the past would have a much harder time for the inverse reason.
Which is why I think the point about talent pool size is the only really relevant one. The Babe was the best of his era, but his era had fewer people than today's; all else being equal, including the historical differences discussed above, we might suppose that the top 4 or 5 guys today would be as good as the best guy in 1920, simply on the grounds that the talent pool is 4 or 5x larger (though that is a very rough estimate, and there are a bunch of confounding variables). And but none of this alters the fact that Babe Ruth simply changed the game in a way that wouldn't even be conceivable today.
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radiohix
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'At the end of the day, we bang. We bang. We're going to swing.' Alex Verdugo
Posts: 6,154
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Post by radiohix on May 8, 2021 11:35:58 GMT -5
I want Juan Soto in a Red Sox uniform as soon as he hits free agency! Him and Devers back to back is a beautiful thing to watch just from the entertainment angle.
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Post by grandsalami on May 8, 2021 23:19:56 GMT -5
The Dodgers have some… um. Bullpen issues.
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Post by Oregon Norm on May 9, 2021 1:25:39 GMT -5
This is fairly simple. The Sox have 7 pitchers who are 6' 4" or better. Find me opposition pitchers from Ruth's era that tall. Does it mean there were no hard throwers? Not at all. Does it mean that the highly specialized modern cavalcade of starters and fine-grained relief specialists with their blazing fastballs coupled with endless deception on their breaking pitches is light-years ahead of the old guard? You bet.
That's before we even discuss big data and how modern hitters have been undressed and their weaknesses exposed for all to see.
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Post by voiceofreason on May 9, 2021 9:23:35 GMT -5
Carlos Rodon has an OPS against of .367 LOL.
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Post by manfred on May 9, 2021 14:16:58 GMT -5
Gulp... de Grom left with injury today. I hope it is just that lat issue.
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Post by geostorm on May 10, 2021 7:05:05 GMT -5
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Post by grandsalami on May 11, 2021 13:32:59 GMT -5
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radiohix
Veteran
'At the end of the day, we bang. We bang. We're going to swing.' Alex Verdugo
Posts: 6,154
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Post by radiohix on May 11, 2021 21:47:50 GMT -5
The guy pitches a gem (7 IP, 1 R, 1 BB, 10 Ks) then moves to RF to take his At Bats! Phenom.
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Post by redsox3in10 on May 11, 2021 22:26:46 GMT -5
The guy pitches a gem (7 IP, 1 R, 1 BB, 10 Ks) then moves to RF to take his At Bats! Phenom. Really wish we had paid the money for him.
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Post by vermontsox1 on May 12, 2021 7:00:00 GMT -5
The guy pitches a gem (7 IP, 1 R, 1 BB, 10 Ks) then moves to RF to take his At Bats! Phenom. Really wish we had paid the money for him. Money was never the issue. He was really only interested in teams on the west coast (I believe the only non-west coast team on his list were the Rangers and Cubs). Also, because he was part of the international signing period at the time, no team could really blow him away with an offer. Unfortunately, the Red Sox didn't really have a shot.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on May 13, 2021 12:13:13 GMT -5
Mariners promoting both Kelenic and Gilbert tonight. That's one way to make a splash.
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Post by James Dunne on May 17, 2021 10:04:22 GMT -5
Look at these masterpieces the Marlins are using for the City Connect series.
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Post by grandsalami on May 17, 2021 17:38:54 GMT -5
say hello to the dodgers new cleanup hitter
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Post by grandsalami on May 17, 2021 21:33:12 GMT -5
Ohtani is just not human Look at where that damn pitch he hit out is!
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cdj
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Posts: 13,372
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Post by cdj on May 17, 2021 21:52:53 GMT -5
That was a good pitch.
Baseball man. So humbling. Poor Hentges
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Post by threeifbaerga on May 17, 2021 22:07:46 GMT -5
That was a good pitch. Baseball man. So humbling. Poor Hentges Lots of players don't catch up to that pitch.
Only a handful take it out.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on May 18, 2021 16:10:29 GMT -5
Rio Ruiz DFA
Cameron Maybin to the Mets
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Post by grandsalami on May 18, 2021 16:32:16 GMT -5
TLR should be fired for this "There will be a consequence he has to endure here within our family."" does he think he is Tony Soprano?
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Post by incandenza on May 18, 2021 17:07:47 GMT -5
TLR should be fired for this "There will be a consequence he has to endure here within our family."" does he think he is Tony Soprano? This is so unbelievably stupid on LaRussa's part that I'm torn between about 10 different ways of trying to express how stupid it is. So I guess I'll just say: this is unbelievably stupid.
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Post by grandsalami on May 18, 2021 17:11:18 GMT -5
TLR should be fired for this "There will be a consequence he has to endure here within our family."" does he think he is Tony Soprano? This is so unbelievably stupid on LaRussa's part that I'm torn between about 10 different ways of trying to express how stupid it is. So I guess I'll just say: this is unbelievably stupid. it gets stupider
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Post by grandsalami on May 18, 2021 17:15:56 GMT -5
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