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Chaim Bloom and the Red Sox Rebuild
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Post by vermontsox1 on Apr 5, 2021 9:58:09 GMT -5
I've merged the two Chaim Bloom threads since there was quite a bit of discussion in the other thread over the winter.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Apr 5, 2021 10:09:36 GMT -5
I'm not sure why an 0-3 start necessitates a poll, but when Bloom is truly evaluated it won't be on the 2021 Red Sox. They're supposed to be a stepping stone on the way to the "sustainable" team he's supposed to build. It wasn't meant to be done in a year or two.
If the Sox stink his main task is to leverage the assets into future assets that will support that sustainable championship caliber team his goal is to build.
While the Red Sox have been terribly dull the previous year and this year in the first series of the year, it's about building the team up for the future.
When Theo Epstein took over the Cubs they didn't leap to respectability right away. It took a few years to build them up. And he accomplished the dreams of Cubs fans all over. But he had trouble with the sustainability part. He kept the highly competitive for awhile but they were on the slide until they hit mediocrity and he bailed.
If Bloom can do what Theo accomplished in Chicago I think we'd all be happy. Winning championships are hard. I know it has looked easy the past two decades, but they went without the previous 8.5 decades. Hell, Cashman has really strong Yankee teams and they haven't won the big one since 2009. It took the Dodgers 8 seasons to finally break through. I don't know how long it will take Bloom to win a Championship or if he even wins one.
But that is part 2 of his goal, which comes after part 1 which is tear the team down, try to get the to be respectable (not looking good there at the moment), all while building up the farm system that can provide players to get him where they need to go (that #4 pick looms so large). Part 3 is the sustainability - the ability to be great for five - ten years and perhaps win another championship.
It's so early in Bloom's tenure that it's hard to judge. If his job was to win right away, he'd be fired, but that's not what he's here for. John Henry made it clear that he felt they overplayed their hand, as he put it - he knew the team was going to have issues. He's not expecting a 2013-like miracle. I think it would be crazy to expect it.
While I may complain about how lethargic the team looks and the obvious flaws they have - in the true big picture, it really doesn't matter a lot. I care more about how they do in the draft and how the minor leaguers are faring, that the depth is expanding, and that the talent of the system has risers. In other words I'm hoping for breakthroughs from guys like Duran, Jimenez, any pitcher that looks like he can become a front-line starter at some point (Groome would be nice). And I'm hoping Bloom nails some more trades. I think he' done a good job in the trades he has made. It sucks to see good players (generational in Mookie's case) go, but it's important that he extracts values to get players he needs to get to build the next truly great Red Sox team.
So I'm willing to give him a lot of rope. We won't really know if they're accomplishing what they need to accomplish until about 2024 or so. This is a long-term project. There will not likely be any shortcuts. The farm system was THAT bad by the time 2019 rolled around. The drafts in the mid-2010s that didn't really hit, especially from the pitching side of things, impacted them. The international penalties and the tragic death of their most promising signing also impacted the farm system. All of that started to show up by 2019.
I don't necessarily regret Dombrowski dealing away guys like Jalen Beeks, Shawn Anderson, Ty Buttrey, the Basabe brothers, etc in the deals he made. They weren't killers. Without those deals and the Sale deal the Sox don't win the Series, and it's not like most of those guys would set the world on fire had they stayed, but the issue is that those guys represented the best of what they had - and it goes to should it really wasn't that good. Hence, the situation Bloom walked into.
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Post by manfred on Apr 5, 2021 10:19:01 GMT -5
I hadn't seen a thread for Chaim Bloom, but wanted to discuss the job he is doing so far. Personally speaking, I think he's doing a very good job despite the fact that since he has taken over the team finished in last and this year's team is already living up the expectations of being mediocre. 1. He was given a zero depth and one of the worst farm systems in baseball. 2. He was told he had to trade Mookie Betts and all indications were he wasn't allowed to spend when he first got here. 3. The Mookie Betts trade I feel like was a win for what he was forced to do. I love Verdugo, Downs is a good prospect, and getting half of Price's contract off the books was a win (more so now that he's a reliever). 4. Nick Yorke was thought to be a reach in the draft, but so far in extremely limited samples have seen that he has been impressive (I believe going 7/10 last year at the alternate site?) 5. I like the Andrew Benintendi trade. (2/13 .368 OPS and now looks to be hurt) 6. Like his Rule 5 pickups for Jonathan Araúz and now Garrett Whitlock. 7. Loved the Brandon Workman and Heath Hembree for Nick Pivetta and Connor Seabold trade. 8. Hirokazu Sawamura seems like a good pickup from Japan. 9. No "buy-low" free agents have seemed to work out thus far, but I do like the idea of buying into guys like Richards and Renfroe as potential assets to flip on a rebuilding team. I don't think winning is this team's first priority. It's rebuilding and it's doing so with guys who underperformed (Benintendi), bad contracts (JD Martinez, Chris Sale), and no real farm system. This is fine, but I am not sure I see hoe that is “very good”? 1) He had a poor farm system... but a pretty young team. Heck, Devers is still young enough he could be in his first or second year. Now, they have... still a pretty poor farm system whose biggest leaps are guys who were here already (eg Duran), and an older major league team. Not sure I see his big contribution. Baby steps in some of the depth, but adding guys to the 10-30 range — most of whom go nowhere — is not “very good.” 2) no comment 3) I am not sold yet on Verdugo. He had a good year last year (with a bit of luck), but he looks to me a bit like a poor man’s Greenwell-y... maybe good average, but not great power. He seems fine, but if he is the big get, it is not “very good.” 4) way too soon to say. I’ve said before, if Yorke works out, Bloom deserves mad props. Until then, it is neither here nor there. 5) The Beni trade is like Yorke: could be good. If Beni and cordero both suck (as they do right now), we’ll have to see what other chips fall. As I’ve said elsewhere, I think it ends up a minor transaction in the end. 6) wWhitlock looks like a masterstroke. Big ups for that. 7) That was an excellent trade, and I’m eager to see Seabold. 8) Sure, Sawamura seems fun... a bit of a high wire act. I wonder if we’d like him as much if we were expecting to compete... not throwing strikes in big moments would not endear him. 9) Again, too soon to say, but, look, all winter there was talk of a “plan,” of some sabremetric insight, etc. If these guys bust, it isn’t just that we had a bad year or had some low price failures: it is that the *philosophy* sucked. They thought, for example, it was better to platoon a Renfroe and Cordero (with a spot of Marwin and Kiké) than resign JBJ. That runs deeper than just picking one guy over another... it is about vision. If that vision craps out, Bloom has failed. I’m not saying they have to be great or even good.... but if they are bad *primarily because of the direction he went* he fails. These first three games are all on Bloom. Every choice he made contributed to those losses. Eovaldi (inherited) gave them a chance. Houck (inherited) gave them a chance. Renfroe, Franchy, Marwin were bad. Kiké made the essential plays to lose them one. Richards lost them another. etc etc. In short, too many things are TBD to sum up good/bad, but Bloom’s weekend grade is clearly an F.
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Post by funkybuddha on Apr 5, 2021 10:55:32 GMT -5
From the podcast with Bloom. At least what I took from it. Possibly most important measurable to Bloom for 2021 is determining what the Sox have going forward. I took that as:
1. Evaluation of the young guys who broke camp with the team. Guys who might have the potential to be regulars for the next few/several years. Pivetta, Dalbec, Houck. Verdugo more proven but still applies here. 2. Evaluation of the guys not yet here but hopefully will be by mid summer at the latest. Durran, Seabold, Mata (injury impacts time table), Downs, maybe Wong? How do they do in shortened Milb season? If called up how do they perform in Boston? What is the evaluation of them as true big leaguers after this season? If some/all fail what is the fall back for Bloom? Does it push the time table back a year? How do all of the above fit into building 2022? 3. Evaluation of the other potential impact players a bit lower in the system. Casas, Jimenez, Groome, Ramirez, Hernandez. Casas becoming an everyday regular by mid season 2022 is kind of crucial to the plan. Becoming an impact player as time goes on crucial. 4. Determine best course of action with everyone else on the current team. As stated Bloom has really revamped the pitching staff top to bottom in a short time. If Sale and ERod come back healthy and both stick around it's going to be a MUCH better staff next year and once again any evaluation of those two in the second half of this year is important. Whitlock looks like a find in Rule 5. Useful pitcher. With pitching Bloom has been really impressive IMO. His first draft pick also looks like a hit so hopefully those keep coming as this draft is also crucial to the cause.
Having said all the above this team is probably not very good. PROBABLY. Obviously too early to make any evaluations but that was a historically bad start, at home, against the worst team in the AL on paper. Sox made Matt Harvey look like his glory days in NY. Without a team like Baltimore Harvey isn't even in the bigs anymore. Hernandez is a .240 hitter. A utility player. who is batting leadoff every day for us. The Benintendi trade is not yet done so can't fully comment but so far in their careers Benny on his bad day is better than Franchy on his good one. Having Cordero as a starter in left and Renfro basically the starter in RF is not ideal. Each would be okay as the 4th OF on a team. Cora IS a great leader so personally I don't expect this to go completely off the rails like last year but I do think it's going to be bad for awhile before it HOPEFULLY gets better. Last note. Very early in his career but Devers seems to be a guy who just starts slowly. Personally I think he is the best hitter on the team by mid season and one of the best hitters in the league by the end of it. I hope I'm not wrong about at least that.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Apr 5, 2021 11:38:04 GMT -5
FWIW, I don't believe Bloom was told to trade Betts and will leave it at that. Or at the very least, if he was, I don't think Bloom disagreed.
I say this hoping against hope that this won't turn into another relitigation of the Betts trade and very much thank those who've declined to do that here already (nodding at you Manfred).
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Post by manfred on Apr 5, 2021 11:40:23 GMT -5
FWIW, I don't believe Bloom was told to trade Betts and will leave it at that. Or at the very least, if he was, I don't think Bloom disagreed. I say this hoping against hope that this won't turn into another relitigation of the Betts trade and very much thank those who've declined to do that here already (nodding at you Manfred). Refrained once today, can do it again!
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Post by congusgambler33 on Apr 5, 2021 13:37:06 GMT -5
Oakland was swept in 4 games by Houston and Atlanta was swept in 3 games by Philadelphia. I guess we can stick a fork in both of them. I admit the teams they lost to were good teams and the Red Sox lost to a deemed bad team, but the are are still o fer. I also noticed in these games that the soft tossers are tough on the Sox. this has been ongoing for awhile too. I don't know why the Sox can't adjust to this type of pitching. they know what is coming and yet they are always lunging at pitches time and time again.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Apr 5, 2021 14:02:04 GMT -5
FWIW, I don't believe Bloom was told to trade Betts and will leave it at that. Or at the very least, if he was, I don't think Bloom disagreed. I say this hoping against hope that this won't turn into another relitigation of the Betts trade and very much thank those who've declined to do that here already (nodding at you Manfred). The Jarred Carrabis podcast with Bloom pretty much backs up what you're saying. He made his reasons and his position on it pretty clear. If I take away the emotion of it I can even see what he's saying. He pretty much has said without blatantly saying it, that his vision of the Red Sox team he's trying to build isn't in the here and now - it's at a future date, one that doesn't line up with getting the best out of Betts at the time the team/organization is where he wants it to be. I did listen to the podcast with you Chris but I think he seemed a little bit more candid on the other one. Maybe it was all the F-bombs Carrabis was using on his podcast, I don't know. Glad you didn't use that strategy.
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Post by Jimmy on Apr 5, 2021 14:20:25 GMT -5
Sorry Chris, I cannot resist the urge but will try to keep it short at least:
If you have no regard for the fans, and are working under the assumption that you must dip under the luxury tax every three years, and the ONLY thing you care about it maximizing the number of championships you win over the next 10-15 years: the Mookie trade made a lot of sense.
Personally I don’t care if the front office has no regard for fans as long as they are maximizing rings. As a fan I consider the front office maxing out championships to be aligned with my priorities. That is my personal opinion though and I can completely understand some people feeling differently.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Apr 5, 2021 14:43:26 GMT -5
FWIW, I don't believe Bloom was told to trade Betts and will leave it at that. Or at the very least, if he was, I don't think Bloom disagreed. I say this hoping against hope that this won't turn into another relitigation of the Betts trade and very much thank those who've declined to do that here already (nodding at you Manfred). The Jarred Carrabis podcast with Bloom pretty much backs up what you're saying. He made his reasons and his position on it pretty clear. If I take away the emotion of it I can even see what he's saying. He pretty much has said without blatantly saying it, that his vision of the Red Sox team he's trying to build isn't in the here and now - it's at a future date, one that doesn't line up with getting the best out of Betts at the time the team/organization is where he wants it to be. I did listen to the podcast with you Chris but I think he seemed a little bit more candid on the other one. Maybe it was all the F-bombs Carrabis was using on his podcast, I don't know. Glad you didn't use that strategy. Not to hijack things, but regarding the above, since it got brought up: Jared asked Bloom more direct questions about things like trading Mookie Betts, and as a result Bloom gave what I might call more direct answers and what you would call more candid answers to those questions, but I think he was no less insightful in either interview. Just different lines of questioning (I'll note he also didn't completely clam up on any questions we asked him as compared to, say, "what podcasts do you listen to?", so there's that! ) FWIW, my understanding is that Carrabis has been in contact with Bloom for a while, so their inclination to ask more direct questions like that makes sense. We'd never spoken with Chaim before our interview. And by the way, goal of the above isn't to get defensive, but just to pull the curtain back a bit. I think both episodes are must-listens.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Apr 5, 2021 15:57:40 GMT -5
The Jarred Carrabis podcast with Bloom pretty much backs up what you're saying. He made his reasons and his position on it pretty clear. If I take away the emotion of it I can even see what he's saying. He pretty much has said without blatantly saying it, that his vision of the Red Sox team he's trying to build isn't in the here and now - it's at a future date, one that doesn't line up with getting the best out of Betts at the time the team/organization is where he wants it to be. I did listen to the podcast with you Chris but I think he seemed a little bit more candid on the other one. Maybe it was all the F-bombs Carrabis was using on his podcast, I don't know. Glad you didn't use that strategy. Not to hijack things, but regarding the above, since it got brought up: Jared asked Bloom more direct questions about things like trading Mookie Betts, and as a result Bloom gave what I might call more direct answers and what you would call more candid answers to those questions, but I think he was no less insightful in either interview. Just different lines of questioning (I'll note he also didn't completely clam up on any questions we asked him as compared to, say, "what podcasts do you listen to?", so there's that! ) FWIW, my understanding is that Carrabis has been in contact with Bloom for a while, so their inclination to ask more direct questions like that makes sense. We'd never spoken with Chaim before our interview. And by the way, goal of the above isn't to get defensive, but just to pull the curtain back a bit. I think both episodes are must-listens. I didn't intend to "disparage" the podcast you did, so I apologize if it came off that way. Yours was definitely a must-listen although I confess that I happened to listen to it a lot later at night than when I heard the Carrabis one, so my brain wasn't functioning as well at that hour. There did seem to be a familiarity factor in the relationship with Carrabis, but in time with more interviews that I look forward to, you'll have that too, along with a more organizational approach in your line of questioning given your audience and our appetite for a top-to-bottom approach of the organization, which I'm sure Bloom totally appreciates given that he thinks in that way as well.
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TearsIn04
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Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
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Post by TearsIn04 on Apr 5, 2021 17:16:11 GMT -5
FWIW, I don't believe Bloom was told to trade Betts and will leave it at that. Or at the very least, if he was, I don't think Bloom disagreed. I say this hoping against hope that this won't turn into another relitigation of the Betts trade and very much thank those who've declined to do that here already (nodding at you Manfred). I agree with this. Experienced CEOs hire executives at Bloom's level, give them goals and let them use their experience and expertise to get there. They don't provvide a roadmap. I think JWH and ownership made it clear to CB that they wanted a model that would produce sustainability and more consistency. CB's concluson (and a rather obvious one, in my opinion) was that that meant getting under the threshhold, clearing out payroll and building up the farm. His additional conclusion (just as obvious) was that that meant not signing someone to a massive contract when the first few years (probably the player's most productive years) would be wasted with a non-contending team.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Apr 5, 2021 17:29:44 GMT -5
I hadn't seen a thread for Chaim Bloom, but wanted to discuss the job he is doing so far. Personally speaking, I think he's doing a very good job despite the fact that since he has taken over the team finished in last and this year's team is already living up the expectations of being mediocre. 1. He was given a zero depth and one of the worst farm systems in baseball. 2. He was told he had to trade Mookie Betts and all indications were he wasn't allowed to spend when he first got here. 3. The Mookie Betts trade I feel like was a win for what he was forced to do. I love Verdugo, Downs is a good prospect, and getting half of Price's contract off the books was a win (more so now that he's a reliever). 4. Nick Yorke was thought to be a reach in the draft, but so far in extremely limited samples have seen that he has been impressive (I believe going 7/10 last year at the alternate site?) 5. I like the Andrew Benintendi trade. (2/13 .368 OPS and now looks to be hurt) 6. Like his Rule 5 pickups for Jonathan Araúz and now Garrett Whitlock. 7. Loved the Brandon Workman and Heath Hembree for Nick Pivetta and Connor Seabold trade. 8. Hirokazu Sawamura seems like a good pickup from Japan. 9. No "buy-low" free agents have seemed to work out thus far, but I do like the idea of buying into guys like Richards and Renfroe as potential assets to flip on a rebuilding team. I don't think winning is this team's first priority. It's rebuilding and it's doing so with guys who underperformed (Benintendi), bad contracts (JD Martinez, Chris Sale), and no real farm system. This is fine, but I am not sure I see hoe that is âvery goodâ? 1) He had a poor farm system... but a pretty young team. Heck, Devers is still young enough he could be in his first or second year. Now, they have... still a pretty poor farm system whose biggest leaps are guys who were here already (eg Duran), and an older major league team. Not sure I see his big contribution. Baby steps in some of the depth, but adding guys to the 10-30 range â most of whom go nowhere â is not âvery good.â 2) no comment 3) I am not sold yet on Verdugo. He had a good year last year (with a bit of luck), but he looks to me a bit like a poor manâs Greenwell-y... maybe good average, but not great power. He seems fine, but if he is the big get, it is not âvery good.â 4) way too soon to say. Iâve said before, if Yorke works out, Bloom deserves mad props. Until then, it is neither here nor there. 5) The Beni trade is like Yorke: could be good. If Beni and cordero both suck (as they do right now), weâll have to see what other chips fall. As Iâve said elsewhere, I think it ends up a minor transaction in the end. 6) wWhitlock looks like a masterstroke. Big ups for that. 7) That was an excellent trade, and Iâm eager to see Seabold. 8) Sure, Sawamura seems fun... a bit of a high wire act. I wonder if weâd like him as much if we were expecting to compete... not throwing strikes in big moments would not endear him. 9) Again, too soon to say, but, look, all winter there was talk of a âplan,â of some sabremetric insight, etc. If these guys bust, it isnât just that we had a bad year or had some low price failures: it is that the *philosophy* sucked. They thought, for example, it was better to platoon a Renfroe and Cordero (with a spot of Marwin and Kiké) than resign JBJ. That runs deeper than just picking one guy over another... it is about vision. If that vision craps out, Bloom has failed. Iâm not saying they have to be great or even good.... but if they are bad *primarily because of the direction he went* he fails. These first three games are all on Bloom. Every choice he made contributed to those losses. Eovaldi (inherited) gave them a chance. Houck (inherited) gave them a chance. Renfroe, Franchy, Marwin were bad. Kiké made the essential plays to lose them one. Richards lost them another. etc etc. In short, too many things are TBD to sum up good/bad, but Bloomâs weekend grade is clearly an F. Had a long post and my computer completely froze. I'll just summarize what I had. 1. I don't think he had much young talent. He had Xander, Devers, E-Rod and replaced Betts with Verdugo. I don't think Chavis is a big leaguer and Dalbec is TBD, but to his credit, he's finding out. 2. Understand we don't want to derail, but I think at worst he was told he can't spend over x for him so he had to make a choice of keeping and losing in FA. Could be wrong, but that's my impression since that was the word before Bloom even got hired. Focusing on the return, Verdugo was the 1st ranked prospect in their system in 2018 and 25th overall according to BP. Pure hitter with a strong arm, developing power, debatable if he's a long term CFer with his average speed. He hit 6 HR in 53 games last year, about a .850 OPS and is turning 25 in a month. Jester Downs was their 5th ranked and had an OPS of .862 in A+ and an OPS of 1.116 in AA in 2019. In ST this year he had an OPS of 1.020. He is the 47th ranked prospect according to mlb.com and seems to be above average at everything, master of nothing. I'm hoping he's an MLB regular at 2B and occasionally vying for the ASG. Connor Wong is just a lottery ticket in my eyes. Maybe I'm wrong on that. Just given the circumstances of an expiring contract I think it's a very good return. Again, Price isn't even in the rotation anymore. 3. See above. I compare him to what Benintendi should have been. It's not helping my case he's 0/11, but that's a huge SSS. 4. Agreed on Yorke, but at least that was a promising showing. If he shines that's a huge win for Bloom, but yes, way too soon. 5. Very plausible it's a wash in the end, but he didn't wait on Benintendi. It looks like he might have potentially pulled the trigger in a timely enough manner to get lottery tickets instead of nothing. He just needs 1 of 3 to make it or have Franchy Cordero display his power. But if Benny keeps spiraling like this there wouldn't have been 3 lotto tickets for him to buy. 6. I'm still not sleeping on Arauz either, but Whitlock alone is great, especially removing him from the Yankees. 7. Agreed. 8. Well, if we're competing I'm assuming he's a a 6th inning arm untill he's earned a promotion by throwing more strikes. 9. I personally do not like JBJ and think there's a chance that one, or both, could be a better hitter and possibly have more trade value. JBJ hits for a 2-3 weeks and then is mostly a non-factor. Right now he's 1/8 with a homer and no walks. Again, SSS though he also had a .580 OPS in ST. Both Franchy and Hunter both had decent ST at the very least despite going completely hitless to start the year. It seems 2021 is system first, contention second. It looks like he's trying to get 2013 Red Sox luck with veterans to either compete or peel off for more assets at the deadline. Admittedly, he has failed his in these dealings so far. I will give them credit for keeping Houck in the rotation instead of making him a reliever and I do give some GMs credit for not trading away prospects that pan out, like Cherrington who seemingly refused to trade anyone and cultivated an incredible core of talent (I think mostly picked by Theo). We all need to see how the season plays out, but not having Benny or JBJ doesn't seem to have cost them yet in comparison. The 2B position is a mess and has been, but I believe they liked Kiké because he's just holding the job for Jeter Downs and can take on the Brock Holt role once they feel Downs is ready. Well, guess that turned out longer than I intended. Edit: I don't know why, but my post (replied on my phone) completely blew up with symbols.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Apr 5, 2021 18:13:10 GMT -5
And by the way, goal of the above isn't to get defensive, but just to pull the curtain back a bit. I think both episodes are must-listens. I didn't intend to "disparage" the podcast you did, so I apologize if it came off that way. Didn't, hence the disclaimer above.
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Post by foreverred9 on Apr 5, 2021 18:32:13 GMT -5
This is fine, but I am not sure I see hoe that is “very good”? 1) He had a poor farm system... but a pretty young team. Heck, Devers is still young enough he could be in his first or second year. Now, they have... still a pretty poor farm system whose biggest leaps are guys who were here already (eg Duran), and an older major league team. Not sure I see his big contribution. Baby steps in some of the depth, but adding guys to the 10-30 range — most of whom go nowhere — is not “very good.” 2) no comment 3) I am not sold yet on Verdugo. He had a good year last year (with a bit of luck), but he looks to me a bit like a poor man’s Greenwell-y... maybe good average, but not great power. He seems fine, but if he is the big get, it is not “very good.” 4) way too soon to say. I’ve said before, if Yorke works out, Bloom deserves mad props. Until then, it is neither here nor there. 5) The Beni trade is like Yorke: could be good. If Beni and cordero both suck (as they do right now), we’ll have to see what other chips fall. As I’ve said elsewhere, I think it ends up a minor transaction in the end. 6) wWhitlock looks like a masterstroke. Big ups for that. 7) That was an excellent trade, and I’m eager to see Seabold. 8) Sure, Sawamura seems fun... a bit of a high wire act. I wonder if we’d like him as much if we were expecting to compete... not throwing strikes in big moments would not endear him. 9) Again, too soon to say, but, look, all winter there was talk of a “plan,” of some sabremetric insight, etc. If these guys bust, it isn’t just that we had a bad year or had some low price failures: it is that the *philosophy* sucked. They thought, for example, it was better to platoon a Renfroe and Cordero (with a spot of Marwin and Kiké) than resign JBJ. That runs deeper than just picking one guy over another... it is about vision. If that vision craps out, Bloom has failed. I’m not saying they have to be great or even good.... but if they are bad *primarily because of the direction he went* he fails. These first three games are all on Bloom. Every choice he made contributed to those losses. Eovaldi (inherited) gave them a chance. Houck (inherited) gave them a chance. Renfroe, Franchy, Marwin were bad. Kiké made the essential plays to lose them one. Richards lost them another. etc etc. In short, too many things are TBD to sum up good/bad, but Bloom’s weekend grade is clearly an F. I agree with everything you said... except the last part. I can't evaluate the performance of Chaim based on three outlier-low performances by the offense (so yes, the team grade this weekend was an F). At least I hope they are outliers, and if they aren't I'd place more blame on the players although Chaim would deserve some blame for Renfranchy and Hernandez. I thought I was one of the more optimistic posters and Chaim defenders on the board, but I couldn't pick anything higher than neutral. He's essentially done his job.
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Post by manfred on Apr 5, 2021 18:50:30 GMT -5
This is fine, but I am not sure I see hoe that is “very good”? 1) He had a poor farm system... but a pretty young team. Heck, Devers is still young enough he could be in his first or second year. Now, they have... still a pretty poor farm system whose biggest leaps are guys who were here already (eg Duran), and an older major league team. Not sure I see his big contribution. Baby steps in some of the depth, but adding guys to the 10-30 range — most of whom go nowhere — is not “very good.” 2) no comment 3) I am not sold yet on Verdugo. He had a good year last year (with a bit of luck), but he looks to me a bit like a poor man’s Greenwell-y... maybe good average, but not great power. He seems fine, but if he is the big get, it is not “very good.” 4) way too soon to say. I’ve said before, if Yorke works out, Bloom deserves mad props. Until then, it is neither here nor there. 5) The Beni trade is like Yorke: could be good. If Beni and cordero both suck (as they do right now), we’ll have to see what other chips fall. As I’ve said elsewhere, I think it ends up a minor transaction in the end. 6) wWhitlock looks like a masterstroke. Big ups for that. 7) That was an excellent trade, and I’m eager to see Seabold. 8) Sure, Sawamura seems fun... a bit of a high wire act. I wonder if we’d like him as much if we were expecting to compete... not throwing strikes in big moments would not endear him. 9) Again, too soon to say, but, look, all winter there was talk of a “plan,” of some sabremetric insight, etc. If these guys bust, it isn’t just that we had a bad year or had some low price failures: it is that the *philosophy* sucked. They thought, for example, it was better to platoon a Renfroe and Cordero (with a spot of Marwin and Kiké) than resign JBJ. That runs deeper than just picking one guy over another... it is about vision. If that vision craps out, Bloom has failed. I’m not saying they have to be great or even good.... but if they are bad *primarily because of the direction he went* he fails. These first three games are all on Bloom. Every choice he made contributed to those losses. Eovaldi (inherited) gave them a chance. Houck (inherited) gave them a chance. Renfroe, Franchy, Marwin were bad. Kiké made the essential plays to lose them one. Richards lost them another. etc etc. In short, too many things are TBD to sum up good/bad, but Bloom’s weekend grade is clearly an F. I agree with everything you said... except the last part. I can't evaluate the performance of Chaim based on three outlier-low performances by the offense (so yes, the team grade this weekend was an F). At least I hope they are outliers, and if they aren't I'd place more blame on the players although Chaim would deserve some blame for Renfranchy and Hernandez. I thought I was one of the more optimistic posters and Chaim defenders on the board, but I couldn't pick anything higher than neutral. He's essentially done his job. I don’t mean a big F... I just mean the guys he was responsible for blew the weekend, so he gets a 3-day F. That grade could change in less than an inning. So only a tiny thing.
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Post by incandenza on May 3, 2021 13:08:35 GMT -5
Since the question of whether Dombrowski "gutted" the farm system, or savvily got rid of a bunch of expendable guys in order to build a World Champion, occasionally comes up, but memories (my own, at least) of which guys he actually traded tend toward the hazy, I thought I'd try to compile a complete list of prospects he traded. The players traded for are underlined:
Craig Kimbrel Logan Allen Carlos Asuaje Javier Guerra Manuel Margot
Carson Smith, Roenis Elias Jonathan Aro
Aaron Hill Wendell Rijo Aaron Wilkerson
Brad Ziegler Luis Alejandro Basabe Jose Almonte
Drew Pomeranz Anderson Espinoza
Fernando Abad Pat Light
Tyler Thornburg Mauricio Dubon Josh Pennington Travis Shaw Yeison Coca
Chris Sale Luis Alexander Basabe Victor Diaz Michael Kopech Yoan Moncada
Eduardo Nunez Shaun Anderson Gregory Santos
Addison Reed Gerson Bautista Jamie Callahan Stephen Nogosek
Rajai Davis Rafael Rincones
Nathan Eovaldi Jalen Beeks
Ian Kinsler Ty Buttrey Williams Jerez
Did I miss anybody?
I would have included prospects he traded for, too, but there weren't any, other than a few minor prospect-for-prospect swaps, like Swihart for Wilson. Of course that's partially due to the team being good throughout his reign. But it is notable that Bloom has found ways to add prospects to the system even while trying to be competitive in the present - e.g., Springs and Mazza for Hernandez; the Benintendi trade; the Ottavino trade - something Dombrowski never did.
I think the upshot of this is that the Thornburg and Nunez trades were dreadful. The Kinsler trade was bad but kind of hard to judge, given how it played out with Buttrey. He gave up a lot for Sale, but got... Sale, and that was probably worth it. Beeks for Eovaldi looks good so far. TBD on Espinoza for Pomeranz, but it looks better now than it did at the time. Opinions vary on the Kimbrel trade. The rest is pretty inconsequential.
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Post by manfred on May 3, 2021 13:25:43 GMT -5
Since the question of whether Dombrowski "gutted" the farm system, or savvily got rid of a bunch of expendable guys in order to build a World Champion, occasionally comes up, but memories (my own, at least) of which guys he actually traded tend toward the hazy, I thought I'd try to compile a complete list of prospects he traded. The players traded for are underlined:
Craig Kimbrel Logan Allen Carlos Asuaje Javier Guerra Manuel Margot
Carson Smith, Roenis Elias Jonathan Aro
Aaron Hill Wendell Rijo Aaron Wilkerson
Brad Ziegler Luis Alejandro Basabe Jose Almonte
Drew Pomeranz Anderson Espinoza
Fernando Abad Pat Light
Tyler Thornburg Mauricio Dubon Josh Pennington Travis Shaw Yeison Coca
Chris Sale Luis Alexander Basabe Victor Diaz Michael Kopech Yoan Moncada
Eduardo Nunez Shaun Anderson Gregory Santos
Addison Reed Gerson Bautista Jamie Callahan Stephen Nogosek
Rajai Davis Rafael Rincones
Nathan Eovaldi Jalen Beeks
Ian Kinsler Ty Buttrey Williams Jerez
Did I miss anybody?
I would have included prospects he traded for, too, but there weren't any, other than a few minor prospect-for-prospect swaps, like Swihart for Wilson. Of course that's partially due to the team being good throughout his reign. But it is notable that Bloom has found ways to add prospects to the system even while trying to be competitive in the present - e.g., Springs and Mazza for Hernandez; the Benintendi trade - something Dombrowski never did.
I think the upshot of this is that the Thornburg and Nunez trades were dreadful. The Kinsler trade was bad but kind of hard to judge, given how it played out with Buttrey. He gave up a lot for Sale, but got... Sale, and that was probably worth it. Beeks for Eovaldi looks good so far. TBD on Espinoza for Pomeranz, but it looks better now than it did at the time. Opinions vary on the Kimbrel trade. The rest is pretty inconsequential.
Let’s look at a bigger picture. Bloom took over a team that had the talent at the big league club to have its best season ever in 2018. So when you say he is making moves for the future but also to be competitive... he’s actually not winning that latter battle. They are competitive because there was already a great team. But the outfield is *significantly* worse for Bloom’s actions. Now, we can agree those check the future box... but you can’t say it is good for the present. Conversely, the lineup when DD arrived was: Swihart C Napoli 1b Pedey Xander Pablo Hanley LF Mookie Some combo of JBJ, Victorino etc Papi (who had only one more season). Rotation: Wade Miley Porcello Joe kelly ERod Buchholz (Owens for depth) Bullpen: Koji (age 40) Tazawa Alexi Ogando Robbie Ross Tommy Lane Craig Breslow They were coming off a 78 win season that followed a 71 win season. Even without trying to argue better/worse, the situations are night and day. Dombrowski was brought into a dumpster fire. Yes, some of those young guys became studs, but you can kinda get a sense of where some of the urgency might have come from.
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Post by incandenza on May 3, 2021 13:55:20 GMT -5
Since the question of whether Dombrowski "gutted" the farm system, or savvily got rid of a bunch of expendable guys in order to build a World Champion, occasionally comes up, but memories (my own, at least) of which guys he actually traded tend toward the hazy, I thought I'd try to compile a complete list of prospects he traded. The players traded for are underlined:
Craig Kimbrel Logan Allen Carlos Asuaje Javier Guerra Manuel Margot
Carson Smith, Roenis Elias Jonathan Aro
Aaron Hill Wendell Rijo Aaron Wilkerson
Brad Ziegler Luis Alejandro Basabe Jose Almonte
Drew Pomeranz Anderson Espinoza
Fernando Abad Pat Light
Tyler Thornburg Mauricio Dubon Josh Pennington Travis Shaw Yeison Coca
Chris Sale Luis Alexander Basabe Victor Diaz Michael Kopech Yoan Moncada
Eduardo Nunez Shaun Anderson Gregory Santos
Addison Reed Gerson Bautista Jamie Callahan Stephen Nogosek
Rajai Davis Rafael Rincones
Nathan Eovaldi Jalen Beeks
Ian Kinsler Ty Buttrey Williams Jerez
Did I miss anybody?
I would have included prospects he traded for, too, but there weren't any, other than a few minor prospect-for-prospect swaps, like Swihart for Wilson. Of course that's partially due to the team being good throughout his reign. But it is notable that Bloom has found ways to add prospects to the system even while trying to be competitive in the present - e.g., Springs and Mazza for Hernandez; the Benintendi trade - something Dombrowski never did.
I think the upshot of this is that the Thornburg and Nunez trades were dreadful. The Kinsler trade was bad but kind of hard to judge, given how it played out with Buttrey. He gave up a lot for Sale, but got... Sale, and that was probably worth it. Beeks for Eovaldi looks good so far. TBD on Espinoza for Pomeranz, but it looks better now than it did at the time. Opinions vary on the Kimbrel trade. The rest is pretty inconsequential.
Let’s look at a bigger picture. Bloom took over a team that had the talent at the big league club to have its best season ever in 2018. So when you say he is making moves for the future but also to be competitive... he’s actually not winning that latter battle. They are competitive because there was already a great team. But the outfield is *significantly* worse for Bloom’s actions. Now, we can agree those check the future box... but you can’t say it is good for the present. You've said this a number of times but it's factually wrong: Bloom didn't inherit the 2018 World Champion team, he inherited a team in September 2019 that was on its way to going 84-78. Dombrowski is responsible for that team, no? Including the money he spent on Pearce and Eovaldi and a soon-to-be-Tommy-John'd Sale.
And some of those choices led to the big one: not managing the team in such a way that they could keep Mookie Betts. I know you think Bloom is solely responsible for trading Betts, but there are 3 possibilities re: what could have gone down there:
a) Dombrowski failed to keep Betts by not offering him enough money and not planning the team's finances well post-2018. b) Mookie was never going to sign with Boston anyway. c) Bloom could have white-knuckled it, keeping Mookie for his last year of control and hoping to re-sign him as a free agent.
If it was (a) then the trade was Dombrowski's fault. It it was (b) then the trade was the right thing to do. And one could be in favor of (c) as a fan, but given Bloom's need to get under the luxury tax that year, it would be really, really hard to make the case that trading Mookie for Verdugo (who's having a better season than Betts so far, by the way) and Downs (one of the top 2 prospects in the system) wasn't the responsible thing to do. In scenario (c) you're also welcome to blame ownership for the luxury tax dictate as well. But in none of these scenarios is it reasonable to blame Bloom for making that trade.
Having said all that... my one significant complaint about Bloom so far is his construction of the 2021 outfield. So I'm with you there. But even this may yet resolve in his (and the team's) favor if, say, Duran comes up and performs solidly right away. It may well be that that's precisely the bet Bloom made with his off-season moves, and if so, it's TBD whether that was a good plan.
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Post by incandenza on May 3, 2021 13:59:01 GMT -5
Also, there's no way I can consider the situation Dombrowski inherited, including the wealth of minor league talent the team had at the time, a dumpster fire. If he had made none of the trades I listed above the team still would have been damn good in 2018, maybe a 100-game winner. That doesn't mean he was wrong to make those moves, but it does imply he inherited many and glorious riches. Whereas what Bloom inherited in the farm system was... not that.
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Post by manfred on May 3, 2021 14:09:29 GMT -5
Let’s look at a bigger picture. Bloom took over a team that had the talent at the big league club to have its best season ever in 2018. So when you say he is making moves for the future but also to be competitive... he’s actually not winning that latter battle. They are competitive because there was already a great team. But the outfield is *significantly* worse for Bloom’s actions. Now, we can agree those check the future box... but you can’t say it is good for the present. You've said this a number of times but it's factually wrong: Bloom didn't inherit the 2018 World Champion team, he inherited a team in September 2019 that was on its way to going 84-78. Dombrowski is responsible for that team, no? Including the money he spent on Pearce and Eovaldi and a soon-to-be-Tommy-John'd Sale.
And some of those choices led to the big one: not managing the team in such a way that they could keep Mookie Betts. I know you think Bloom is solely responsible for trading Betts, but there are 3 possibilities re: what could have gone down there:
a) Dombrowski failed to keep Betts by not offering him enough money and not planning the team's finances well post-2018. b) Mookie was never going to sign with Boston anyway. c) Bloom could have white-knuckled it, keeping Mookie for his last year of control and hoping to re-sign him as a free agent.
If it was (a) then the trade was Dombrowski's fault. It it was (b) then the trade was the right thing to do. And one could be in favor of (c) as a fan, but given Bloom's need to get under the luxury tax that year, it would be really, really hard to make the case that trading Mookie for Verdugo (who's having a better season than Betts so far, by the way) and Downs (one of the top 2 prospects in the system) wasn't the responsible thing to do. In scenario (c) you're also welcome to blame ownership for the luxury tax dictate as well. But in none of these scenarios is it reasonable to blame Bloom for making that trade.
Having said all that... my one significant complaint about Bloom so far is his construction of the 2021 outfield. So I'm with you there. But even this may yet resolve in his (and the team's) favor if, say, Duran comes up and performs solidly right away. It may well be that that's precisely the bet Bloom made with his off-season moves, and if so, it's TBD whether that was a good plan.
What were the personnel shifts between 2018 and 2019? Holt for Nunez at second. Kimbrel became Workman. Otherwise... same team. As for the outfield... fine. If Duran comes up and rakes, things are better. But Duran is another gift from former management. When will we see an actual *up grade* that is not left over? Anyway, not relitigating Mookie. Don’t care anymore. But DD was responsible for my 1A greatest season in Sox history, and in that moment a lot of us felt like we’d sell our souls to have it go to the end. I will keep faith with that: you give me the greatest season ever, I’ll gladly pay Tuesday. The last couple years have been a kind of dismal that goes back a long way to match... and even this year, watching the embers of greatness glow but enduring Kiké lead off, Franchy look like a t-ball player, etc... it just isn’t as much fun. Duran will be better even if he is rough, if only because he is homegrown and not a one year number on a jersey.
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Post by incandenza on May 3, 2021 14:14:01 GMT -5
You've said this a number of times but it's factually wrong: Bloom didn't inherit the 2018 World Champion team, he inherited a team in September 2019 that was on its way to going 84-78. Dombrowski is responsible for that team, no? Including the money he spent on Pearce and Eovaldi and a soon-to-be-Tommy-John'd Sale.
And some of those choices led to the big one: not managing the team in such a way that they could keep Mookie Betts. I know you think Bloom is solely responsible for trading Betts, but there are 3 possibilities re: what could have gone down there:
a) Dombrowski failed to keep Betts by not offering him enough money and not planning the team's finances well post-2018. b) Mookie was never going to sign with Boston anyway. c) Bloom could have white-knuckled it, keeping Mookie for his last year of control and hoping to re-sign him as a free agent.
If it was (a) then the trade was Dombrowski's fault. It it was (b) then the trade was the right thing to do. And one could be in favor of (c) as a fan, but given Bloom's need to get under the luxury tax that year, it would be really, really hard to make the case that trading Mookie for Verdugo (who's having a better season than Betts so far, by the way) and Downs (one of the top 2 prospects in the system) wasn't the responsible thing to do. In scenario (c) you're also welcome to blame ownership for the luxury tax dictate as well. But in none of these scenarios is it reasonable to blame Bloom for making that trade.
Having said all that... my one significant complaint about Bloom so far is his construction of the 2021 outfield. So I'm with you there. But even this may yet resolve in his (and the team's) favor if, say, Duran comes up and performs solidly right away. It may well be that that's precisely the bet Bloom made with his off-season moves, and if so, it's TBD whether that was a good plan.
What were the personnel shifts between 2018 and 2019? Holt for Nunez at second. Kimbrel became Workman. Otherwise... same team. Well you tell me then... why did the greatest team in Sox history turn into a mediocrity the very next season?
I think it's fine to credit Dombrowski with much of the success of the 2018 team and say that the price paid was worth it. But you seem to want to charge Bloom with that bill, when it's Dombrowski who wrote the IOUs.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on May 3, 2021 14:34:03 GMT -5
You've said this a number of times but it's factually wrong: Bloom didn't inherit the 2018 World Champion team, he inherited a team in September 2019 that was on its way to going 84-78. Dombrowski is responsible for that team, no? Including the money he spent on Pearce and Eovaldi and a soon-to-be-Tommy-John'd Sale. And some of those choices led to the big one: not managing the team in such a way that they could keep Mookie Betts. I know you think Bloom is solely responsible for trading Betts, but there are 3 possibilities re: what could have gone down there: a) Dombrowski failed to keep Betts by not offering him enough money and not planning the team's finances well post-2018. b) Mookie was never going to sign with Boston anyway. c) Bloom could have white-knuckled it, keeping Mookie for his last year of control and hoping to re-sign him as a free agent.
If it was (a) then the trade was Dombrowski's fault. It it was (b) then the trade was the right thing to do. And one could be in favor of (c) as a fan, but given Bloom's need to get under the luxury tax that year, it would be really, really hard to make the case that trading Mookie for Verdugo (who's having a better season than Betts so far, by the way) and Downs (one of the top 2 prospects in the system) wasn't the responsible thing to do. In scenario (c) you're also welcome to blame ownership for the luxury tax dictate as well. But in none of these scenarios is it reasonable to blame Bloom for making that trade.
Having said all that... my one significant complaint about Bloom so far is his construction of the 2021 outfield. So I'm with you there. But even this may yet resolve in his (and the team's) favor if, say, Duran comes up and performs solidly right away. It may well be that that's precisely the bet Bloom made with his off-season moves, and if so, it's TBD whether that was a good plan. What were the personnel shifts between 2018 and 2019? Holt for Nunez at second. Kimbrel became Workman. Otherwise... same team. As for the outfield... fine. If Duran comes up and rakes, things are better. But Duran is another gift from former management. When will we see an actual *up grade* that is not left over? Anyway, not relitigating Mookie. Donât care anymore. But DD was responsible for my 1A greatest season in Sox history, and in that moment a lot of us felt like weâd sell our souls to have it go to the end. I will keep faith with that: you give me the greatest season ever, Iâll gladly pay Tuesday. The last couple years have been a kind of dismal that goes back a long way to match... and even this year, watching the embers of greatness glow but enduring Kiké lead off, Franchy look like a t-ball player, etc... it just isnât as much fun. Duran will be better even if he is rough, if only because he is homegrown and not a one year number on a jersey. I guess I'm not sure why it's a DD vs CB debate. There's no doubt in my mind that Dombrowski inherited a minor league system that was booming, at least from the offensive standpoint. Those were gifts he received from Ben Cherington and even Theo Epstein. He made some really good deals which turned them into a superpower. Three division titles and the best team we'll ever see in our lifetime plus a flag that flies forever. He didn't make any deals that crushed the team. You can complain about Thornburg but it's not like they surrendered Jeff Bagwell in the deal. They lost a guy who hit well for a year or two and then fell off a cliff offensively in Shaw and a useful utility guy who is not irreplaceable in Dubon. Had Thornburg not come up with an injury that pitchers just don't recover from and they got that solid pitcher he was in Milwaukee then it wouldn't have been terrible. Like Carson Smith he got a solid reliever but was unlucky. Then on the flip side he made a deal I absolutely hated, the Espinoza for Pomeranz deal which actually worked out because the Pads had terrible luck in that deal with Espinoza getting injured twice. Pomeranz, like Nunez and Kimbrel, in 2017 were difference makers in a close division race with the Yankees in 2017. I have no doubt that if DD doesn't make those deals the Sox don't win the division in 2017. Unfortunately it didn't ultimately matter that season, but maybe it still worked out. The Sox losing to Houston lead to Farrell's firing and Cora's hiring and the hunger that lead to the Sox obliterating everybody in 2018. The only deal he made that will haunt them from a talent standpoint is a deal I wouldn't have made, but have zero right to complain about - the trade of Moncada and Kopech for Sale. I will say he impacted the 2017 and 2018 seasons for the good, and who knows? Maybe he comes back healthy and contributes at some point this year and for the next few years. I know his re-signing is separate from the trade, but Sale might never have wanted to be a lifelong Red Sox without the deal and I contend that it's still too early to call his re-signing a total bust. I think there's more strong pitching from Sale in the future even if it's not necessarily 2021. With Bloom, yeah he left them a serious hole in LF this year. Kiké offensively is about equal to JBJ but he's not him defensively, but then again, what was Bloom supposed to do? Give JBJ a 3 year deal or something? Especially given that he was under budgetary constraints that he dealt with that Dombrowski totally failed to deal with? With Betts we'll never know. I contend that if the Sox had given Betts a Trout offer he might have stayed, but they never did as far as we know. Whose decision was it not to? I don't know. Normally those kinds of decisions with money that big belong to ownership, so that's where I'd personally put it. Given the risk of losing Betts, Bloom did well to get Verudgo for five seasons, Downs for six, and Wong. I complained about him not including Workman to get pitching from LA, but instead he did that (along with Hembree) to return them Pivetta and Seabold, which definitely fit the bill for what I was hoping for. Bloom has basically been doing what Duquette did when he first came to Boston and what Theo did when he first came to Boston, something Dombrowski never had to do, which is to try to work the bargain bin. Duquette famously came up with Wakefield and Theo came up with Ortiz. Perhaps Whitlock is the masterpiece that Bloom unearths, but obviously he's in a different position than Dombrowski. Everything he does is with an eye for the future. I honestly think Bloom got caught a little off-guard as to how good the Sox could be this year. Benintendi would be a major upgrade on Cordero - I thought originally they could be a wash, but I look foolish on this one, but he could still salvage the deal and succeed if he picks well on the minor leaguers. What I do feel is that Bloom wanted no part of committing long-term to Benintendi and when presented with a chance to pick up 5 players for him, jumped at the opportunity. It'll be on him to get a viable LF who can at least be average this season, whether it's Duran or somebody from outside the organization. But it's obvious what Bloom is trying to do. He's trying to increase depth throughout the organization, something that Dombrowski wasn't trying to do - his focus was on the top level and that was it. If Bloom does what he wants to do, he could be a strong team highly competitive for a 5 - 7 year stretch but there's no guarantee they win the big one. Dombrowski improved a young core which gave them 4 chances to compete. They crapped out that last season and fell short the first two but capitalized big-time, and that's not always obvious. There are teams that have won well over 100 games and didn't win the Series (the 2001 Mariners won 116 and didn't even make the Series). They are both here to for different functions and it's the right time for Bloom to be here and for Dombrowski to be gone.
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Post by manfred on May 3, 2021 14:40:50 GMT -5
What were the personnel shifts between 2018 and 2019? Holt for Nunez at second. Kimbrel became Workman. Otherwise... same team. Well you tell me then... why did the greatest team in Sox history turn into a mediocrity the very next season?
I think it's fine to credit Dombrowski with much of the success of the 2018 team and say that the price paid was worth it. But you seem to want to charge Bloom with that bill, when it's Dombrowski who wrote the IOUs.
Well, the pitching sucked. But it was kind of bad luck. Sale got hurt, Eovaldi was awful, Price was up and down. But the funny thing? That staff still produced this year’s 1-2 starters, including Eovaldi who was .1 bWAR in 2019, and will add Sale, who we all await in July or August. Anyway, I’m not *charging* Bloom with anything. He is still pretty new, and last season is a mulligan. All I am saying is that the general sense that he is playing 5D chess seems this far to be exaggerated. Like many GMs, he’s had some big hits (Whitlock; Pivetta/Seabold), some fine moves, and some misses. But Theo came in in 2001, won in 2004. Ben inherited a mess in 2011, won in 2013 (last to first). And DD came in to a bad team in 2015 (coming off two straught 5th place finishes), won in 2018. The clock is ticking.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on May 3, 2021 15:00:37 GMT -5
Well you tell me then... why did the greatest team in Sox history turn into a mediocrity the very next season? I think it's fine to credit Dombrowski with much of the success of the 2018 team and say that the price paid was worth it. But you seem to want to charge Bloom with that bill, when it's Dombrowski who wrote the IOUs.
Well, the pitching sucked. But it was kind of bad luck. Sale got hurt, Eovaldi was awful, Price was up and down. But the funny thing? That staff still produced this year’s 1-2 starters, including Eovaldi who was .1 bWAR in 2019, and will add Sale, who we all await in July or August. Anyway, I’m not *charging* Bloom with anything. He is still pretty new, and last season is a mulligan. All I am saying is that the general sense that he is playing 5D chess seems this far to be exaggerated. Like many GMs, he’s had some big hits (Whitlock; Pivetta/Seabold), some fine moves, and some misses. But Theo came in in 2001, won in 2004. Ben inherited a mess in 2011, won in 2013 (last to first). And DD came in to a bad team in 2015 (coming off two straught 5th place finishes), won in 2018. The clock is ticking. In a way, the Sox are better ahead of schedule for Bloom sort of how it was with Cherington. The clock's ticking but keep in mind, the Sox don't have to rush it. 2013 was kind of a happy accident. You can't tell me Cherington made the moves he made and figured he had a World Championship team. He figured they be an 86 win team, at least if I remembered what he said in Alex Speier's book correctly. Probably a similar situation with Bloom. I think he's building for 2023 - 2030. I think that's what he's looking at ultimately. 2021 contention was a hope but not a mandate and here they are. I'm not enamored with the acquisitions of Hernandez, Gonzalez, Renfroe, Ottavino, and Andriese (although that is looking like a sneaky good move), so I understand your position. But that's kind of the nature of bargain bin picking (if you consider Hernandez as bargain pin picking - he's cheaper than JBJ anyways). But when you bargain bin pick, sometimes you can get a Whitlock or Arroyo, who has played well. Bloom has done well in his trades, although the Benintendi deal doesn't look good at the moment - plenty of time for that deal to be salvaged. I do think one disadvantage Bloom has in the bargain bin picking is that the FO in the rest of the league makes it harder to do. Everything was old school in 1995 when Duquette was making all of those big moves. I think Mike Gimble or whoever was helping him was ahead of the old school curve. Then Theo was way ahead of the curve when he started, so he stole teams blind with Ortiz, Mueller, Millar, and Bronson Arroyo for practically nothing. But other Front Offices have since caught up and modernized which make this harder for Bloom to do. So a lot of bargain basement misses, but some small successes and one potential huge steal. Whitlock could be a steal. Even Arauz could possibly become a regular, although I doubt it. Arroyo could loom large at 2b. Put it to you like this. I trust him more at the plate the the rest of the guys clogging the bottom of the order.
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