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4/20-4/21 Red Sox vs. Blue Jays Series Thread
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Post by sarasoxer on Apr 21, 2021 19:34:43 GMT -5
Time to get someone in the pen!! Save the bullpen and let Richards continue on an unlikely unwinnable game. Maybe he can find something or otherwise write his epitaph. Houck is waiting come May...or Seabold in June/July. We've made early unexpected progress but hey, we are not there for a year or more.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Apr 21, 2021 19:38:58 GMT -5
At some point, they've gotta think that either Houck or Whitlock is going to give them a better chance to win these games Believe it's 10m invested in him, counting a buyout on 2022. Count on Richards getting half a season worth of starts, even if he remains bad. It's how teams look at it, oh so afraid to throw away anything, even if keeping costs the team 2 ways. Of course he could right the ship, just remember Richards was yet another of those magical "spin" guys all along.. How many have been failures now??
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,441
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Post by nomar on Apr 21, 2021 19:39:59 GMT -5
Phantom DL Richard for Houck.
Hasn’t looked good in any appearance from March-present. Why March him out there to his detriment. Let him rehab and figure it out in the minors
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Apr 21, 2021 19:41:52 GMT -5
I get the frustration with Richards- he has been quite frustrating to watch- I just don’t understand this narrative that I’ve seen pop up in many places that he’s never been good, or “what could Bloom possibly have seen in him?” he has 8.2 bWar in 10 seasons, and half of that came in 1 year. i guess it is important to put good in context, he did have a few good years so you are right there, but he is a tick above replacement level. I don't really have a problem with the signing, but if we have a contending ball club, then he needs to find another role, if he can't get it done. It is just the right thing to do.
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Post by manfred on Apr 21, 2021 19:47:05 GMT -5
I was always against Richards because I figured he’d get hurt. I didn’t think he’d suck.
When people say the $4 million savings getting Kiké over JBJ was huge, remember we sank $13+ million in Renfroe and Richards, who are in a race to the waiver wire.
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Post by manfred on Apr 21, 2021 19:52:41 GMT -5
If you played a drinking game that had you take a shot every time they talk about Richards’ spin rate (and he nearly throws a slider away).... you might die.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Apr 21, 2021 19:53:07 GMT -5
Phantom DL Richard for Houck. Hasn’t looked good in any appearance from March-present. Why March him out there to his detriment. Let him rehab and figure it out in the minors not sure he would even go to the minors. he does have options, but he is a 10 year pro. i think that would cause a lot of problems, i would just DFA.
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Post by manfred on Apr 21, 2021 19:55:58 GMT -5
Phantom DL Richard for Houck. Hasn’t looked good in any appearance from March-present. Why March him out there to his detriment. Let him rehab and figure it out in the minors not sure he would even go to the minors. he does have options, but he is a 10 year pro. i think that would cause a lot of problems, i would just DFA. They have $10 mill on him and he’s in start 4. He isn’t getting DFAd yet. A few more chances, then maybe bullpen. I’m assuming they assumed he was a project.
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TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
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Post by TearsIn04 on Apr 21, 2021 19:56:22 GMT -5
Eck: "His command to first bsae is not good tonight." Hilarious.
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Post by incandenza on Apr 21, 2021 19:57:14 GMT -5
I get the frustration with Richards- he has been quite frustrating to watch- I just don’t understand this narrative that I’ve seen pop up in many places that he’s never been good, or “what could Bloom possibly have seen in him?” he has 8.2 bWar in 10 seasons, and half of that came in 1 year. i guess it is important to put good in context, he did have a few good years so you are right there, but he is a tick above replacement level. A tick above replacement level? This is your characterization of a guy with a career 3.66 ERA as a starter?
He's at about 3 fWAR/2 bWAR per 200 IP, which is at least average. The problem, again, is his being huurt for huge swathes of his career. This is a weird kind of retconning some of you are doing to be like, "obviously Garrett Richards is a lousy pitcher, always has been."
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Apr 21, 2021 19:58:58 GMT -5
not sure he would even go to the minors. he does have options, but he is a 10 year pro. i think that would cause a lot of problems, i would just DFA. They have $10 mill on him and he’s in start 4. He isn’t getting DFAd yet. A few more chances, then maybe bullpen. I’m assuming they assumed he was a project. i didnt realize it was that much. yeah...they wont cut him just yet. i still don't think he would go quietly to the minors.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Apr 21, 2021 20:01:52 GMT -5
he has 8.2 bWar in 10 seasons, and half of that came in 1 year. i guess it is important to put good in context, he did have a few good years so you are right there, but he is a tick above replacement level. A tick above replacement level? This is your characterization of a guy with a career 3.66 ERA as a starter?
He's at about 3 fWAR/2 bWAR per 200 IP, which is at least average. The problem, again, is his being huurt for huge swathes of his career. This is a weird kind of retconning some of you are doing to be like, "obviously Garrett Richards is a lousy pitcher, always has been."
being healthy is a part of the whole review. he has pitched over 100 innings 3x in a 10 year period. So we are just gonna start pro-rating a pitchers value. he has great stuff and it hasn't amounted to much over his career. I think he isn't very good. My opinion.
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Post by manfred on Apr 21, 2021 20:02:17 GMT -5
he has 8.2 bWar in 10 seasons, and half of that came in 1 year. i guess it is important to put good in context, he did have a few good years so you are right there, but he is a tick above replacement level. A tick above replacement level? This is your characterization of a guy with a career 3.66 ERA as a starter?
He's at about 3 fWAR/2 bWAR per 200 IP, which is at least average. The problem, again, is his being huurt for huge swathes of his career. This is a weird kind of retconning some of you are doing to be like, "obviously Garrett Richards is a lousy pitcher, always has been."
That is also deceptive. I suspect everyone would agree he was a great pitcher years ago. But he is at 1.9 WAR since 2016. Not average. TOTAL. Since 2018, his 162 game average is .6 WAR. ERA+ 99. I mean, you could make a great case for MadBum and Kluber based on full career numbers. But toast is toast.
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 13,395
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Post by cdj on Apr 21, 2021 20:03:37 GMT -5
I get the frustration with Richards- he has been quite frustrating to watch- I just don’t understand this narrative that I’ve seen pop up in many places that he’s never been good, or “what could Bloom possibly have seen in him?” he has 8.2 bWar in 10 seasons, and half of that came in 1 year. i guess it is important to put good in context, he did have a few good years so you are right there, but he is a tick above replacement level. I don't really have a problem with the signing, but if we have a contending ball club, then he needs to find another role, if he can't get it done. It is just the right thing to do. This is exactly what I was talking about.
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Post by ajs1994 on Apr 21, 2021 20:03:54 GMT -5
Somehow, Kluber is walking more per 9 than Richards so far this year (6.6 per 9 versus 6.19 for Richards after today's starts).
I didn't love the Richards signing because of his injury history, but this level of issues throwing strikes is quite surprising. He's been effective on a per start basis in his career.
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 13,395
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Post by cdj on Apr 21, 2021 20:06:23 GMT -5
A tick above replacement level? This is your characterization of a guy with a career 3.66 ERA as a starter?
He's at about 3 fWAR/2 bWAR per 200 IP, which is at least average. The problem, again, is his being huurt for huge swathes of his career. This is a weird kind of retconning some of you are doing to be like, "obviously Garrett Richards is a lousy pitcher, always has been."
That is also deceptive. I suspect everyone would agree he was a great pitcher years ago. But he is at 1.9 WAR since 2016. Not average. TOTAL. Since 2018, his 162 game average is .6 WAR. ERA+ 99. I mean, you could make a great case for MadBum and Kluber based on full career numbers. But toast is toast. He was really good in 2016, 2017, 2018 when he was on the mound. Had a taste In his rehab after his TJ In 2019 and had a rough 3 abbreviated starts. Was solid last year. Like you said before, it’s health for him. Not talent. This idea that he’s been replacement level player his whole career is nonsense. He’s always been quite effective when he’s been on the mound. This year is just different so far. I do credit him for settling down, once again. Again- it really makes me think he can adjust something in his pregame routine to come out more ready. That’s me channeling my inner-Van
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Post by Soxfansince1971 on Apr 21, 2021 20:09:42 GMT -5
A tick above replacement level? This is your characterization of a guy with a career 3.66 ERA as a starter?
He's at about 3 fWAR/2 bWAR per 200 IP, which is at least average. The problem, again, is his being huurt for huge swathes of his career. This is a weird kind of retconning some of you are doing to be like, "obviously Garrett Richards is a lousy pitcher, always has been."
That is also deceptive. I suspect everyone would agree he was a great pitcher years ago. But he is at 1.9 WAR since 2016. Not average. TOTAL. Since 2018, his 162 game average is .6 WAR. ERA+ 99. I mean, you could make a great case for MadBum and Kluber based on full career numbers. But toast is toast. ....and even the greatest tasting jam can’t improve the taste of burned toast! DL opens a spot on the 26-man....
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Apr 21, 2021 20:12:13 GMT -5
That is also deceptive. I suspect everyone would agree he was a great pitcher years ago. But he is at 1.9 WAR since 2016. Not average. TOTAL. Since 2018, his 162 game average is .6 WAR. ERA+ 99. I mean, you could make a great case for MadBum and Kluber based on full career numbers. But toast is toast. He was really good in 2016, 2017, 2018 when he was on the mound. Had a taste In his rehab after his TJ In 2019 and had a rough 3 abbreviated starts. Was solid last year. Like you said before, it’s health for him. Not talent. This idea that he’s been replacement level player his whole career is nonsense. He’s always been quite effective when he’s been on the mound. This year is just different so far. I do credit him for settling down, once again. Again- it really makes me think he can adjust something in his pregame routine to come out more ready well...teams have certainly had to replace him quite often in the rotation over the years. (joking) Whatever, you guys want to ride with a guy who has had an ERA + over 100 in 2 seasons, that is fine. i feel confident in my take. He can toss it, that is for sure. Too bad his stuff didnt match up with the results, even considering the injuries.
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Post by manfred on Apr 21, 2021 20:12:54 GMT -5
That is also deceptive. I suspect everyone would agree he was a great pitcher years ago. But he is at 1.9 WAR since 2016. Not average. TOTAL. Since 2018, his 162 game average is .6 WAR. ERA+ 99. I mean, you could make a great case for MadBum and Kluber based on full career numbers. But toast is toast. He was really good in 2016, 2017, 2018 when he was on the mound. Had a taste In his rehab after his TJ In 2019 and had a rough 3 abbreviated starts. Was solid last year. Like you said before, it’s health for him. Not talent. This idea that he’s been replacement level player his whole career is nonsense. He’s always been quite effective when he’s been on the mound. This year is just different so far. I do credit him for settling down, once again. Again- it really makes me think he can adjust something in his pregame routine to come out more ready. That’s me channeling my inner-Van But he made 12 starts in 2016-2017. I agree it’s been health, but lots of health issues take a toll. He used to he high 90s. He’s not anymore. So even in that way, he is not the same guy. I guess if you are going to take a chance on a guy (who ended last season in the pen), I’d at least hope the contract would be incentive-laden.
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 13,395
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Post by cdj on Apr 21, 2021 20:15:55 GMT -5
He was really good in 2016, 2017, 2018 when he was on the mound. Had a taste In his rehab after his TJ In 2019 and had a rough 3 abbreviated starts. Was solid last year. Like you said before, it’s health for him. Not talent. This idea that he’s been replacement level player his whole career is nonsense. He’s always been quite effective when he’s been on the mound. This year is just different so far. I do credit him for settling down, once again. Again- it really makes me think he can adjust something in his pregame routine to come out more ready well...teams have certainly had to replace him quite often in the rotation over the years. (joking) Whatever, you guys want to ride with a guy who has had an ERA + over 100 in 2 seasons, that is fine. i feel confident in my take. He can toss it, that is for sure. Too bad his stuff didnt match up with the results, even considering the injuries. I mean considering the injuries it absolutely matched up with his stuff. Prior to this season he had an ERA + over 100 in 6 of 7 seasons. He just didn’t pitch a ton due to a freak leg injury and a UCL he tried to rehab. The one season he was below a 100 was his little taste coming back from TJ So again, this is exactly what I’m talking about. The criticism isn’t grounded in reality
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Post by manfred on Apr 21, 2021 20:16:56 GMT -5
well...teams have certainly had to replace him quite often in the rotation over the years. (joking) Whatever, you guys want to ride with a guy who has had an ERA + over 100 in 2 seasons, that is fine. i feel confident in my take. He can toss it, that is for sure. Too bad his stuff didnt match up with the results, even considering the injuries. I mean considering the injuries it absolutely matched up with his stuff. Prior to this season he had an ERA + over 100 in 6 of 7 seasons. He just didn’t pitch a ton due to a freak leg injury and a UCL he tried to rehab. The one season he was below a 100 was his little taste coming back from TJ So again, this is exactly what I’m talking about. The criticism isn’t grounded in reality I’ll put you in the “Richards is worth the $10 mill” group then?
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 13,395
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Post by cdj on Apr 21, 2021 20:17:59 GMT -5
I mean considering the injuries it absolutely matched up with his stuff. Prior to this season he had an ERA + over 100 in 6 of 7 seasons. He just didn’t pitch a ton due to a freak leg injury and a UCL he tried to rehab. The one season he was below a 100 was his little taste coming back from TJ So again, this is exactly what I’m talking about. The criticism isn’t grounded in reality I’ll put you in the “Richards is worth the $10 mill” group then? When he signed yeah. As of now, he hasn’t been. But it’s also mid-April and he’s shown some mental toughness grinding out starts after terrible beginnings....
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Post by incandenza on Apr 21, 2021 20:19:14 GMT -5
A tick above replacement level? This is your characterization of a guy with a career 3.66 ERA as a starter?
He's at about 3 fWAR/2 bWAR per 200 IP, which is at least average. The problem, again, is his being huurt for huge swathes of his career. This is a weird kind of retconning some of you are doing to be like, "obviously Garrett Richards is a lousy pitcher, always has been."
being healthy is a part of the whole review. he has pitched over 100 innings 3x in a 10 year period. So we are just gonna start pro-rating a pitchers value. he has great stuff and it hasn't amounted to much over his career. I think he isn't very good. My opinion. Yes, not being healthy definitely compromises his value. But it doesn't make him "a tick above replacement level." That's a measure of ability, and he has - historically - shown plenty of ability.
It's totally reasonable to argue that it's not worth taking a $10 million gamble on a guy who hasn't been able to stay on the field. But that's not his problem now.
And it's also not crazy (though premature, imo) to say that we ought to give up on him after 4 bad starts, since there's no reason to assume he's still the same pitcheer he was 6 years ago.
The thing that doesn't make sense is to say "this guy was never any good and Bloom must be CRAZY to have spent all this money on a guy who stinks."
If you want to cite where you argued after the signing that you expected him to stay healthy but have a total lack of control then I'll give you kudos. But I don't recall that being an issue that people raised.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Apr 21, 2021 20:20:08 GMT -5
I mean considering the injuries it absolutely matched up with his stuff. Prior to this season he had an ERA + over 100 in 6 of 7 seasons. He just didn’t pitch a ton due to a freak leg injury and a UCL he tried to rehab. The one season he was below a 100 was his little taste coming back from TJ So again, this is exactly what I’m talking about. The criticism isn’t grounded in reality i stand corrected on the ERA+, i misread the numbers, thanks for correcting. I dont separate injury history from a players review. if that is unfair, so be it.
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 13,395
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Post by cdj on Apr 21, 2021 20:20:13 GMT -5
Sawamura’s split is absurd, it’s gotta be one of the best pitches in baseball
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