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4/27-4/28 Red Sox @ Mets Series Thread
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Post by unitspin on Apr 29, 2021 4:24:34 GMT -5
Degrom reminds me of felix hernandez years back, dominates game after game and still ends up with the L. That was a good win.
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Post by voiceofreason on Apr 29, 2021 6:19:39 GMT -5
When you fall asleep early, wakeup in the middle of the night and the thought of the game crosses your mind so you have to check on the outcome and find that the Sox won 1-0. Well it makes it hard to go back to sleep. This season has been a series of pleasant surprises!! Richards and then Pivetta with back to back gems.... Matt Barnes doing his best Mariano impression. These are the wins that define a teams personality and the confidence in the clubhouse begins to take shape. This could be a fun summer.
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jimoh
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Post by jimoh on Apr 29, 2021 6:36:46 GMT -5
When thinking about Bryan Mata or Jason Groome, it's fun to think about how at age 25 in 2013 post TJ minor leaguer Jacob deGrom gave up 168 hits in 147 innings. This was a fan site's report: "Fastball was only 91-94 in look, though reports have him touching 96. Labored under the humid conditions and was down to 90-92 by the end of his start." "The projection: 8th inning guy... command can be spotty, but close to major-league-ready with two solid-average fastballs. Will pitch in the majors." www.amazinavenue.com/2013/10/16/4799166/new-york-mets-pitching-prospects-jacob-degrom-scouting-report
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mobaz
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Post by mobaz on Apr 29, 2021 8:23:19 GMT -5
Obviously a long way to go, but I'll be really interested to see where deGrom ends up in the HOF conversation. I think he'll need to maintain his current dominance for 4 more years to even enter the conversation given how late he started. He'll be competing with Verlander/Greinkie/Scherzer/Kershaw, he has the lack of winz against him. He could easily end up in the Santana/Lincecum/Felix tier where memories get short.
Other two-time Cy winner who aren't/won't get in: Kluber, Denny McLain, Bret Saberhagen.
Also wonder about Chris Sale, who has lost 2 years of his prime and has zero Cy Youngs (with 6 Top-5 finishes). He'll have to look like his old self for the rest of his contract to have any chance. Some hardware will help.
Mostly I hate how quickly Era-Defining pitchers are forgotten in the HOF debate. Guys can be studs for 7 years but don't even make a 2nd ballot. I'm actually pretty surprised about Roy Halladay since he didn't hit his stride until 26 and was done as an ace at 34.
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Post by manfred on Apr 29, 2021 8:44:27 GMT -5
Obviously a long way to go, but I'll be really interested to see where deGrom ends up in the HOF conversation. I think he'll need to maintain his current dominance for 4 more years to even enter the conversation given how late he started. He'll be competing with Verlander/Greinkie/Scherzer/Kershaw, he has the lack of winz against him. He could easily end up in the Santana/Lincecum/Felix tier where memories get short. Other two-time Cy winner who aren't/won't get in: Kluber, Denny McLain, Bret Saberhagen. Also wonder about Chris Sale, who has lost 2 years of his prime and has zero Cy Youngs (with 6 Top-5 finishes). He'll have to look like his old self for the rest of his contract to have any chance. Some hardware will help. Mostly I hate how quickly Era-Defining pitchers are forgotten in the HOF debate. Guys can be studs for 7 years but don't even make a 2nd ballot. I'm actually pretty surprised about Roy Halladay since he didn't hit his stride until 26 and was done as an ace at 34. Part of the problem is that it is hard to be era-defining on bad teams in small markets. Felix had a very quiet great career, even with hardware. Same with Santana, whose biggest career highlight was a no hitter in NY when he was past his prime. I really think that hurts guys. If it is media guys who vote, it is media stars they vote for (not exclusively, of course, but it is a finger on the scale). Anyway, that could help Sale and de Grom.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Apr 29, 2021 9:03:04 GMT -5
When thinking about Bryan Mata or Jason Groome, it's fun to think about how at age 25 in 2013 post TJ minor leaguer Jacob deGrom gave up 168 hits in 147 innings. This was a fan site's report: "Fastball was only 91-94 in look, though reports have him touching 96. Labored under the humid conditions and was down to 90-92 by the end of his start." "The projection: 8th inning guy... command can be spotty, but close to major-league-ready with two solid-average fastballs. Will pitch in the majors." www.amazinavenue.com/2013/10/16/4799166/new-york-mets-pitching-prospects-jacob-degrom-scouting-reportFWIW, Amazin' Avenue (and the other SBNation sites) are a bit more than fan sites, and that was written by Jeffrey Paternostro, who's now the head prospect guy at BP.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Apr 29, 2021 9:04:29 GMT -5
And we have 15 prospects ranked higher than Whitlock. Not for long. A tidbit to whet the palate: When I put my initial rankings into the spreadsheet, I thought I was being bullish and would need to defend my ranking of Whitlock to Mike and Ian. I wound up the low man and they talked me higher.
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Post by James Dunne on Apr 29, 2021 9:13:33 GMT -5
You are killing us with the rankings tease. But yeah, with Dalbec graduating and Mata getting TJS I could see an argument for pushing him all the way up to #5. He at least has be in that grouping with Houck, Ward, and Seabold.
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Post by manfred on Apr 29, 2021 9:14:41 GMT -5
On the basis of what he has *done* to MLB hitters, as opposed to guys who look like they *could* be great, I think Whitlock could fairly be as high as #1.
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Post by unitspin on Apr 29, 2021 9:59:09 GMT -5
A tidbit to whet the palate: When I put my initial rankings into the spreadsheet, I thought I was being bullish and would need to defend my ranking of Whitlock to Mike and Ian. I wound up the low man and they talked me higher. I don't remember anyone thinking he was going to be as good as he has been. So I think the ranking on him was a good one.
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Post by cba82 on Apr 29, 2021 10:20:15 GMT -5
I don't know where to post this, and I'm sorry to be negative, but I've been listening to the games on the radio and Will Fleming is simply a terrible announcer.
It's not just his voice and his delivery, both of which bother me, but he's also not very attentive -- last night when Franchy Cordero came up to pinch hit Fleming said this might have been a spot for Alex Verdugo, but that Cora was probably saving him to hit later in the game...until Fleming realized that Verdugo had started and was playing right field.
We're a long way from Martin and Woods, that's for sure.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Apr 29, 2021 10:50:06 GMT -5
A tidbit to whet the palate: When I put my initial rankings into the spreadsheet, I thought I was being bullish and would need to defend my ranking of Whitlock to Mike and Ian. I wound up the low man and they talked me higher. I don't remember anyone thinking he was going to be as good as he has been. So I think the ranking on him was a good one. To be clear, I'm talking about the coming May 4 update.
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Post by voiceofreason on Apr 29, 2021 10:59:33 GMT -5
I would really like this team if Kiki and Marwin were coming off the bench as the starters were all legit every day players. They are really really good in the super utility role. If the Sox can make that happen if not this year then next, that is a tough team. If of course the pitching resembles what they have been doing.
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Post by soxin8 on Apr 29, 2021 11:24:40 GMT -5
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gerry
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Post by gerry on Apr 29, 2021 13:06:38 GMT -5
I would really like this team if Kiki and Marwin were coming off the bench as the starters were all legit every day players. They are really really good in the super utility role. If the Sox can make that happen if not this year then next, that is a tough team. If of course the pitching resembles what they have been doing. To your point, in 2022 todayâs core four of Verdugo, Bogaerts, JDM, Devers plus Dalbec and Vasquez, could/should be augmented with Casas, Downs and Duran. Itâs mind blowing to imagine a mostly homegrown lineup of, say, Duran, XB, Verdugo, JDM, Devers, Downs, Casas, Dalbec, CV with both Kiké and Marwin giving everyone days off. And the great âwhat ifâ of Franchyâ, Santana, Wong, Arauz, Chavis, etc. And still having depth in AAA. And even better pitching. That is an exciting thought experiment. Oh happy day.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Apr 29, 2021 13:13:01 GMT -5
I would really like this team if Kiki and Marwin were coming off the bench as the starters were all legit every day players. They are really really good in the super utility role. If the Sox can make that happen if not this year then next, that is a tough team. If of course the pitching resembles what they have been doing. To your point, in 2022 todayâs core four of Verdugo, Bogaerts, JDM, Devers plus Dalbec and Vasquez, could/should be augmented with Casas, Downs and Duran. Itâs mind blowing to imagine a mostly homegrown lineup of, say, Duran, XB, Verdugo, JDM, Devers, Downs, Casas, Dalbec, CV with both Kiké and Marwin giving everyone days off. And the great âwhat ifâ of Franchyâ, Santana, Wong, Arauz, Chavis, etc. And still having depth in AAA. And even better pitching. That is an exciting thought experiment. Oh happy day. I don't see a scenario where JDM, Casas, Duran, and Devers wind up on the same roster. More likely JDM strongly considers opting out - if there is a DH in the NL come 2022. I don't know that Casas would be ready to start in 2022, although later that season is certainly not out of the question. Marwin Gonzalez is only signed for this season as is Santana if he's brought up soon. I don't know that they'd be on the 2022 roster. But I wouldn't discount Jonathan Arauz as a guy who could play a lot in the infield. Perhaps Munoz winds up the all-over-the-place utility man.
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Post by Soxfansince1971 on Apr 29, 2021 13:15:08 GMT -5
That may have been even a more impressive win than the previous night. DeGrom showed why he is so dominating. But Pivetta had his best five and dive tonight. Whitlock was Whitlock. No drama from Ottavino tonight and Barnes was absolutely devastating again. Just enough offense and the road warriors pulled out another tough victory. As great as Pivetta was tonight I have to wonder if he has it in him to do what Garrett Richards did the night before which is to be somebody who can pitch into the 7th inning. Even when he is unhittable Pivetta's lack of control causes his pitch count to get high very quickly so he doesn't eat up a lot of innings. You have to figure he was an his most unhittable best the past two outings. And in the previous outing he was actually at a pitch count that would have made a no-hitter a possibility until he lost control with two outs in the 6th. Tonight he was nearing 100 pitches when he was done after 5 because of the 3 walks and a HBP. Fortunately they could not hit him. I know today's pitchers' goals are to throw as hard as possible for as long as possible and if it's 5 innings so be it, but I wonder if Pivetta can harness his control and still be good enough to not give up too many hits and still be able to stay in the game longer. I would think that's the progression they're still trying to get from him. I just wonder if he can do it. I mean what he's doing now is certainly working. A back-end starter who's really tough to hit and can give you five quality innings is a good thing, but if he can take that next step he can become more than a back-end starter. Fortunately with Whitlock available to pitch tonight it made the 5 innings from Pivetta more than acceptable, plus it also allowed Andriese to be used in a short situation last night, and of course, it was a perfect chance to use Whitlock in a high leverage situation, so that worked out perfectly. I would take 5 innings - 0 runs in all 33 starts per year (165 innings 0 ERA = Cy Young😀
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Post by Soxfansince1971 on Apr 29, 2021 13:37:17 GMT -5
On the basis of what he has *done* to MLB hitters, as opposed to guys who look like they *could* be great, I think Whitlock could fairly be as high as #1. Casas, Downs, Mata.....Manfred is correct as Whitlock is doing it: IN 13.1, hits 6, R 0, ER 0, BB 2, SO 18.....WOW
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gerry
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Post by gerry on Apr 29, 2021 13:59:17 GMT -5
To your point, in 2022 todayâÂÂs core four of Verdugo, Bogaerts, JDM, Devers plus Dalbec and Vasquez, could/should be augmented with Casas, Downs and Duran. ItâÂÂs mind blowing to imagine a mostly homegrown lineup of, say, Duran, XB, Verdugo, JDM, Devers, Downs, Casas, Dalbec, CV with both Kiké and Marwin giving everyone days off. And the great âÂÂwhat ifâ of FranchyâÂÂ, Santana, Wong, Arauz, Chavis, etc. And still having depth in AAA. And even better pitching. That is an exciting thought experiment. Oh happy day. I don't see a scenario where JDM, Casas, Duran, and Devers wind up on the same roster. More likely JDM strongly considers opting out - if there is a DH in the NL come 2022. I don't know that Casas would be ready to start in 2022, although later that season is certainly not out of the question. Marwin Gonzalez is only signed for this season as is Santana if he's brought up soon. I don't know that they'd be on the 2022 roster. But I wouldn't discount Jonathan Arauz as a guy who could play a lot in the infield. Perhaps Munoz winds up the all-over-the-place utility man. As I said, âthought experimentâ. If JDM opts out couldnât you see a still lethal rotation with Bogaerts, Casas, Dalbec and Devers rotating through the DH spot? As has been often speculated on this board, Duran is a likely call up by mid-year, and possibly Downs and Casas by year end, assuming all goes well; which isnât always the case, but who expected the Sox to be 16 - 9 in April with high grades across the stat universe. Would you be surprised if Kiké and/or Marwin become so integral to Sox success going forward? Bloom will have the $$ to sign them. .
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Apr 29, 2021 14:46:45 GMT -5
I don't see a scenario where JDM, Casas, Duran, and Devers wind up on the same roster. More likely JDM strongly considers opting out - if there is a DH in the NL come 2022. I don't know that Casas would be ready to start in 2022, although later that season is certainly not out of the question. Marwin Gonzalez is only signed for this season as is Santana if he's brought up soon. I don't know that they'd be on the 2022 roster. But I wouldn't discount Jonathan Arauz as a guy who could play a lot in the infield. Perhaps Munoz winds up the all-over-the-place utility man. As I said, âthought experimentâ. If JDM opts out couldnât you see a still lethal rotation with Bogaerts, Casas, Dalbec and Devers rotating through the DH spot? As has been often speculated on this board, Duran is a likely call up by mid-year, and possibly Downs and Casas by year end, assuming all goes well; which isnât always the case, but who expected the Sox to be 16 - 9 in April with high grades across the stat universe. Would you be surprised if Kiké and/or Marwin become so integral to Sox success going forward? Bloom will have the $$ to sign them. I suspect that's part of the plan. I figure either JDM will opt in (less likely as his annual salary drops, he has a monster year, and if the NL adpots the DH) meaning Casas eventually taking 1b and either Dalbec or Devers at 3b/dh. The lesser possibility is JDM returning, Devers at 3b, Casas at 1b, and Dalbec being traded. I think you're right that we'll see Duran this year, Downs next year, and I can see Wong taking Plawecki's spot. Hernandez is already signed up for 2022, but I think it's likely Marwin moves on. Bloom isn't Dombrowski. I don't think he's a guy who's going to extend players if he can find somebody to take on the same function for cheaper, which is why I think he moves on from Marwin and then eventually Hernandez. He has Munoz in the farm system who can play all over. Arauz can back up the infield. He found Santana on the cheap this year, too. I don't think handing out extensions will be how he handles utility players. He'll just find another one.
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Post by orion09 on Apr 29, 2021 17:17:39 GMT -5
I don't know where to post this, and I'm sorry to be negative, but I've been listening to the games on the radio and Will Fleming is simply a terrible announcer. It's not just his voice and his delivery, both of which bother me, but he's also not very attentive -- last night when Franchy Cordero came up to pinch hit Fleming said this might have been a spot for Alex Verdugo, but that Cora was probably saving him to hit later in the game...until Fleming realized that Verdugo had started and was playing right field. We're a long way from Martin and Woods, that's for sure. Agreed, don't care much for Will Flemming either. He never seems like he's paying attention. I really like Sean McDonough, who I wish they would use for every game. He's got great chemistry with Joe Castiglione.
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mobaz
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Post by mobaz on Apr 29, 2021 18:08:31 GMT -5
I don't know where to post this, and I'm sorry to be negative, but I've been listening to the games on the radio and Will Fleming is simply a terrible announcer. It's not just his voice and his delivery, both of which bother me, but he's also not very attentive -- last night when Franchy Cordero came up to pinch hit Fleming said this might have been a spot for Alex Verdugo, but that Cora was probably saving him to hit later in the game...until Fleming realized that Verdugo had started and was playing right field. We're a long way from Martin and Woods, that's for sure. Agreed, don't care much for Will Flemming either. He never seems like he's paying attention. I really like Sean McDonough, who I wish they would use for every game. He's got great chemistry with Joe Castiglione. Bring Sean back to TV and send Obie back to radio!
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Post by voiceofreason on Apr 29, 2021 19:04:59 GMT -5
I would really like this team if Kiki and Marwin were coming off the bench as the starters were all legit every day players. They are really really good in the super utility role. If the Sox can make that happen if not this year then next, that is a tough team. If of course the pitching resembles what they have been doing. To your point, in 2022 todayâs core four of Verdugo, Bogaerts, JDM, Devers plus Dalbec and Vasquez, could/should be augmented with Casas, Downs and Duran. Itâs mind blowing to imagine a mostly homegrown lineup of, say, Duran, XB, Verdugo, JDM, Devers, Downs, Casas, Dalbec, CV with both Kiké and Marwin giving everyone days off. And the great âwhat ifâ of Franchyâ, Santana, Wong, Arauz, Chavis, etc. And still having depth in AAA. And even better pitching. That is an exciting thought experiment. Oh happy day. That could be an awesome 2023 lineup.
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Post by voiceofreason on Apr 29, 2021 19:11:03 GMT -5
On the basis of what he has *done* to MLB hitters, as opposed to guys who look like they *could* be great, I think Whitlock could fairly be as high as #1. Casas, Downs, Mata.....Manfred is correct as Whitlock is doing it: IN 13.1, hits 6, R 0, ER 0, BB 2, SO 18.....WOW Thank you Cashmen
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Post by orion09 on Apr 29, 2021 20:15:48 GMT -5
As I said, âthought experimentâ. If JDM opts out couldnât you see a still lethal rotation with Bogaerts, Casas, Dalbec and Devers rotating through the DH spot? As has been often speculated on this board, Duran is a likely call up by mid-year, and possibly Downs and Casas by year end, assuming all goes well; which isnât always the case, but who expected the Sox to be 16 - 9 in April with high grades across the stat universe. Would you be surprised if Kiké and/or Marwin become so integral to Sox success going forward? Bloom will have the $$ to sign them. I suspect that's part of the plan. I figure either JDM will opt in (less likely as his annual salary drops, he has a monster year, and if the NL adpots the DH) meaning Casas eventually taking 1b and either Dalbec or Devers at 3b/dh. The lesser possibility is JDM returning, Devers at 3b, Casas at 1b, and Dalbec being traded. I think there's a bit of a tendency on this board to underappreciate how good JDM has been. He's actually a guy that I hope they would resign, even if he opts out, so long as the contract isn't obscenely long or expensive. He's had a 146 wRC+ with the Red Sox, which is tied for 7th in MLB over that time period. He's a true Top 10 hitter. My hunch is that he'll age pretty well too, given his outstanding hit tool and knowledge of hitting. As Eric pointed out a few days ago, the Sox no doubt have a model that predicts how well he'll age, though my fear is that Bloom may err on the side of "no big contracts" to guys like JDM. Of course, we haven't seen him in that position, so we don't know that yet. Even if Dalbec and Casas both hit their 80th percentile projections, it's just hard to overstate how much longer and more dangerous the lineup looks with a guy like JDM in the middle, versus Devers/Bogaerts/Dalbec/Casas with no JDM.
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