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6/15-6/16 Red Sox @ Braves Series Thread
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Post by Guidas on Jun 16, 2021 5:55:11 GMT -5
Great win!
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Post by patford on Jun 16, 2021 6:53:34 GMT -5
Erod lacks stamina. In the 2nd and 3rd innings he was throwing gas and striking out good hitters. By the 4th he couldn't hit the same speeds on his fastball, nor could he control it as well. There could be something physically wrong with him, maybe something related to the problem he had last year. Barnes' curveball has not been nearly as sharp in the last two games as it was earlier. He ought to use it a little less until he can get it back to what it was. He never seems to have a quick inning. Yes he's had some bad luck with cheap hits but even when he strikes out the side it's on close to 20 pitches.
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Post by greatscottcooper on Jun 16, 2021 7:30:00 GMT -5
I think last night was a great win.
Now I think some people would disagree with me so let me share my reasoning. About 12 years and 65 lbs ago I used to do some pro-amateur muay Thai kickboxing fighting all over the country and world. Some words my trainer said to me one day have resonated my whole life. I was sparring at 8 am on Saturday after a Friday night celebrating my birthday and I was just not on my game. When I wanted to just stop and go home he told me "How well we perform on our worst day reflects how great we can be on our best day, get back up and get in there no matter how ugly it is". Yeah, I wasn't going to have my best training day, but I had a much better day than I would have had if I just gave up and went home.
The Sox had a bad day yesterday, they gave up a 5-0 lead, the great Garrett Whitlock looked vulnerable, and our ace closer blew the lead....but we still won and that's what matters. So for me, if you can lose when you're not at your best then that's a good win. My two cents.
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Post by Guidas on Jun 16, 2021 7:38:09 GMT -5
Erod lacks stamina. In the 2nd and 3rd innings he was throwing gas and striking out good hitters. By the 4th he couldn't hit the same speeds on his fastball, nor could he control it as well. There could be something physically wrong with him, maybe something related to the problem he had last year. Barnes' curveball has not been nearly as sharp in the last two games as it was earlier. He ought to use it a little less until he can get it back to what it was. With all the articles coming out about ongoing effects and delayed effects of COVID, you just can't be sure what ERod's situation is. Maybe he doesn't realize that he's being affected (if he is.) Also, the man didn’t pitch for a year. The muscles he needs to recruit for non-fastballs are not large and atrophy quickly. Gotta believe that adds to it.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jun 16, 2021 8:04:10 GMT -5
Big win last night. They really did just about everything to lose that game, but the HR ball was the one thing that was working for the Sox last night (along with some good relief pitching) so they won a game that in many other years they would have blown. Stop me if you've heard that before.
It was disconcerting to see E-Rod go out there and only last 4 innings and not protect a 5 run lead or the bullpen. On one hand, his FIP for the game, the 8/1 K/BB ratio makes me believe that the E-Rod we saw in 2019 and for the first month of the season can still re-emerge. On the other hand, I can't simply say, look at his FIP - he's fine.
I think it's somewhere in between. He is getting wracked. Guys are consistently getting hits off of him. At some point that is real even if FIP doesn't capture that. And on the other hand, there is that element of bad luck with hits falling in. So that's why I do think it's in between. To me he is pitching kind of poorly but he's not hopelessly lost. At some point some of those hits won't fall in, but he does have to pitch better, and I think that can still happen even if his overall numbers won't look great. In a way it kind of reminds me of the funk Jon Lester fell into somewhere in the middle of the 2013 season before straightening out. So I'm not giving up on E-Rod either.
I think Whitock, despite some walks, pitched fine. The defense was brutal behind him. It was encouraging to see Sawamura and Ottavino calm the game down.
It was aggravating to see the Sox let so many scoring chances fall by the wayside by failure of getting the productive out to bring the run home.
Alex Verdugo took the Sox off the hook when Kiké Hernandez failed (again) to get a key RBI.
And I have to say - in my forty years of watching the Sox, I don't think I've ever seen a HR quite like Verdugo's. I'm hardly great at a lot of stuff baseball after all of these years, but one thing I've kind of learned to do is read the ball off the bat, and when Verdugo hit his shot, I got annoyed. I thought he got under it and lofted a can of corn flyball to CF. I couldn't believe it when the CF drifted back, and then turned around and watched the ball sail into the stands. I went from totally aggravated to stunned and exhilarated.
That was one of the weirdest most stunning HRs I've ever seen. I have no idea how he could be "under" the ball like that on his swing and have it carry so far.
So through all that weirdness, for the first time in about a month, the Sox actually GAINED a full game on Tampa Bay, who had a huge loss, not just the game, but their one true ace, the guy who could impact the division race.
Before the news yesterday, I felt the Sox were lined up for the wild card game against Oakland or Houston (I figure Oakland), but now the possibility re-emerges that the Sox can catch Tampa, and avoid the sudden death coin toss game, even though I know that Tampa will still survive Glasnow's loss. Guess we'll see if Rich Hill makes it through the season unscathed (same thing can be said about some pitchers on the Sox staff as well as I think of Richards and Eovaldi).
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Post by benzinger on Jun 16, 2021 8:15:20 GMT -5
Erod lacks stamina. In the 2nd and 3rd innings he was throwing gas and striking out good hitters. By the 4th he couldn't hit the same speeds on his fastball, nor could he control it as well. There could be something physically wrong with him, maybe something related to the problem he had last year. Barnes' curveball has not been nearly as sharp in the last two games as it was earlier. He ought to use it a little less until he can get it back to what it was. He never seems to have a quick inning. Yes he's had some bad luck with cheap hits but even when he strikes out the side it's on close to 20 pitches.
I feel like Erod always did the 20 pitches/inning thing even when times were good? He was an early adopter of the 5-6 inning start becoming the norm.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Jun 16, 2021 9:23:40 GMT -5
I legit thought the CF had to take a couple steps in on the Devers bomb, the way the ball carries off his bat is uncanny
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Post by Soxfansince1971 on Jun 16, 2021 9:24:27 GMT -5
These Red Sox are karma stompers. They keep having these games where all the outer gods and chthonic forces seem to be lined up against them but they find a way to win anyway. I don't think this team is as good so I am not predicting the same level of success (obviously I wouldn't do that), but it does feel very 2018-ish The 2021 Red Sox are 41-27 which is only 4 games behind the 2018 team after 67 games. The 2018 had the advantage that there were some really, really terrible teams in the AL. This year there seems to be more teams clustered closer to .500, so there are not as many “easy” games. The 2021 team has way more holes in the lineup and on the bench.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Jun 16, 2021 10:14:20 GMT -5
So it seems based on my casual reading of fangraphs and watching the games that it makes the most sense for Arroyo to play 2B and Kiké to play CF full-time. Kiké is not great with the bat but at least gives you good CF defense, something no one else really gives us at CF right now.
Why not play Kiké at center everyday? He doesnât seem that great at 2B (or, at least he seems like a much better fit at CF) unless Im missing something. Im not sure what he gives you there that Marwin or Arroyo donât. When they need to rest him, I guess we put Verdugo in center? Iâm assuming Santana wonât be here long and Duran isnât up for center yet.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jun 16, 2021 10:23:05 GMT -5
I don't think this team is as good so I am not predicting the same level of success (obviously I wouldn't do that), but it does feel very 2018-ish The 2021 Red Sox are 41-27 which is only 4 games behind the 2018 team after 67 games. The 2018 had the advantage that there were some really, really terrible teams in the AL. This year there seems to be more teams clustered closer to .500, so there are not as many “easy” games. The 2021 team has way more holes in the lineup and on the bench. I sometimes think the biggest undermining factor on the 2021 Red Sox is the difference of walks the Sox pitching staff gives up versus the lack of walks the Red Sox offense is willing to take. Basically the Sox have to string together hits (and when they don't make productive outs, it gets glaring) or hit HRs to score runs. I think they struggle to draw a leadoff walk, have a single move the runner to 3rd and then hit a sac fly to score the run - that kind of offense. The Sox have to string together 2 or 3 hits to make it work or hit the long ball. The 2018 Sox certainly had their holes and two bad teams to beat up in the division but the 2021 team isn't in their league. The 2018 Red Sox basically played .667 baseball for most of the year and then got ridiculously hot in August and were actually playing .710 baseball through 3/4 of the season. Then they coasted in late August/September as they auditioned for the setup man that they need really needed (with the exception of Joe Kelly in the World Series. Steven Wright had won the role, but got hurt just before the playoffs started). They played a little over .500 ball which dropped them down to .667. This team reminds me more of the 2013 Red Sox, who wound up playing .599 baseball. This team has hovered around .600 consistently. I do think the Sox at some point will fall off a bit but they do have every opportunity to win 90 - 95 games or even a little more, which I would have thought was the 1% scenario (if that!) when the season began. Just hope for the Sox' sake, that the Glasnow injury deflates the Rays to the point the Sox finish ahead of them in the standings and hopefully if they're the wild card, they can knock off Houston in a Wild Card game because Houston is the one team I wouldn't want to see the Sox play in the playoffs. I'd take my chances with any other AL team at this point, as good as Oakland, TB, and the ChiSox are.
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Post by patford on Jun 16, 2021 10:49:42 GMT -5
The 2021 Red Sox are 41-27 which is only 4 games behind the 2018 team after 67 games. The 2018 had the advantage that there were some really, really terrible teams in the AL. This year there seems to be more teams clustered closer to .500, so there are not as many “easy” games. The 2021 team has way more holes in the lineup and on the bench. I sometimes think the biggest undermining factor on the 2021 Red Sox is the difference of walks the Sox pitching staff gives up versus the lack of walks the Red Sox offense is willing to take. Basically the Sox have to string together hits (and when they don't make productive outs, it gets glaring) or hit HRs to score runs. I think they struggle to draw a leadoff walk, have a single move the runner to 3rd and then hit a sac fly to score the run - that kind of offense. The Sox have to string together 2 or 3 hits to make it work or hit the long ball. The 2018 Sox certainly had their holes and two bad teams to beat up in the division but the 2021 team isn't in their league. The 2018 Red Sox basically played .667 baseball for most of the year and then got ridiculously hot in August and were actually playing .710 baseball through 3/4 of the season. Then they coasted in late August/September as they auditioned for the setup man that they need really needed (with the exception of Joe Kelly in the World Series. Steven Wright had won the role, but got hurt just before the playoffs started). They played a little over .500 ball which dropped them down to .667. This team reminds me more of the 2013 Red Sox, who wound up playing .599 baseball. This team has hovered around .600 consistently. I do think the Sox at some point will fall off a bit but they do have every opportunity to win 90 - 95 games or even a little more, which I would have thought was the 1% scenario (if that!) when the season began. Just hope for the Sox' sake, that the Glasnow injury deflates the Rays to the point the Sox finish ahead of them in the standings and hopefully if they're the wild card, they can knock off Houston in a Wild Card game because Houston is the one team I wouldn't want to see the Sox play in the playoffs. I'd take my chances with any other AL team at this point, as good as Oakland, TB, and the ChiSox are. Yes the difference is incredible. The Rays have nearly 100 more walks than the Sox. They have a guy like Yandy Diaz who can't hit and has very little power who walks at an amazing rate. Are pitchers afraid of him? I've got my frequently stated opinions and will only be convinced I'm wrong after MLB begins using robot balls and strikes. The Rays in particular are the poster boy for exactly what everyone is saying is the problem with MLB. Their offense consists of walks and HR. Their team BA is .230.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jun 16, 2021 10:57:57 GMT -5
I sometimes think the biggest undermining factor on the 2021 Red Sox is the difference of walks the Sox pitching staff gives up versus the lack of walks the Red Sox offense is willing to take. Basically the Sox have to string together hits (and when they don't make productive outs, it gets glaring) or hit HRs to score runs. I think they struggle to draw a leadoff walk, have a single move the runner to 3rd and then hit a sac fly to score the run - that kind of offense. The Sox have to string together 2 or 3 hits to make it work or hit the long ball. The 2018 Sox certainly had their holes and two bad teams to beat up in the division but the 2021 team isn't in their league. The 2018 Red Sox basically played .667 baseball for most of the year and then got ridiculously hot in August and were actually playing .710 baseball through 3/4 of the season. Then they coasted in late August/September as they auditioned for the setup man that they need really needed (with the exception of Joe Kelly in the World Series. Steven Wright had won the role, but got hurt just before the playoffs started). They played a little over .500 ball which dropped them down to .667. This team reminds me more of the 2013 Red Sox, who wound up playing .599 baseball. This team has hovered around .600 consistently. I do think the Sox at some point will fall off a bit but they do have every opportunity to win 90 - 95 games or even a little more, which I would have thought was the 1% scenario (if that!) when the season began. Just hope for the Sox' sake, that the Glasnow injury deflates the Rays to the point the Sox finish ahead of them in the standings and hopefully if they're the wild card, they can knock off Houston in a Wild Card game because Houston is the one team I wouldn't want to see the Sox play in the playoffs. I'd take my chances with any other AL team at this point, as good as Oakland, TB, and the ChiSox are. Yes the difference is incredible. The Rays have nearly 100 more walks than the Sox. They have a guy like Yandy Diaz who can't hit and has very little power who walks at an amazing rate. Are pitchers afraid of him? I've got my frequently stated opinions and will only be convinced I'm wrong after MLB begins using robot balls and strikes. The Rays in particular are the poster boy for exactly what everyone is saying is the problem with MLB. Their offense consists of walks and HR. Their team BA is .230. They don't get themselves out as much as the Sox do. They can't hit like the Sox can. I get that some of the function of being less passive at the plate is swinging and missing and chasing more, but I just feel like the Sox do too much chasing at times. There are a lot of pitchers who are in the majors because they can throw hard, not because they have any sense of command, yet the Sox should be patient to get themselves into good hitters' count and then zone in on pitches, but I feel like (and I could be wrong - this is anecdotal) that they chase too often and find themselves in pitchers count and then chase outside the strike zone. Or as Cora says, "Do damage in the strike zone", which is what the 2018 Red Sox were really good at. It's harder for the Sox because they have guys that are hackers. They're leading one off even. Hell, I like Arroyo but he doesn't walk either. Too many guys in the lineup who don't utilize the free pass. I get that the desire to get the starter out after 5 isn't as much when every reliever throws 100, but still. It's hard seeing the Sox get like 2 walks a game while they're doling out 4 or 5. I love grinding types of ABs, which the Sox don't have as much as I'd like. They can hit somewhat thought (or at least 2 - 5 can), and that will put you above the average team in the league in this era.
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Post by greenmonster on Jun 16, 2021 12:25:08 GMT -5
............ Barnes' curveball has not been nearly as sharp in the last two games as it was earlier. He ought to use it a little less until he can get it back to what it was. I wonder what could be different
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Post by patford on Jun 16, 2021 14:18:06 GMT -5
Yes the difference is incredible. The Rays have nearly 100 more walks than the Sox. They have a guy like Yandy Diaz who can't hit and has very little power who walks at an amazing rate. Are pitchers afraid of him? I've got my frequently stated opinions and will only be convinced I'm wrong after MLB begins using robot balls and strikes. The Rays in particular are the poster boy for exactly what everyone is saying is the problem with MLB. Their offense consists of walks and HR. Their team BA is .230. They don't get themselves out as much as the Sox do. They can't hit like the Sox can. I get that some of the function of being less passive at the plate is swinging and missing and chasing more, but I just feel like the Sox do too much chasing at times. There are a lot of pitchers who are in the majors because they can throw hard, not because they have any sense of command, yet the Sox should be patient to get themselves into good hitters' count and then zone in on pitches, but I feel like (and I could be wrong - this is anecdotal) that they chase too often and find themselves in pitchers count and then chase outside the strike zone. Or as Cora says, "Do damage in the strike zone", which is what the 2018 Red Sox were really good at. It's harder for the Sox because they have guys that are hackers. They're leading one off even. Hell, I like Arroyo but he doesn't walk either. Too many guys in the lineup who don't utilize the free pass. I get that the desire to get the starter out after 5 isn't as much when every reliever throws 100, but still. It's hard seeing the Sox get like 2 walks a game while they're doling out 4 or 5. I love grinding types of ABs, which the Sox don't have as much as I'd like. They can hit somewhat thought (or at least 2 - 5 can), and that will put you above the average team in the league in this era. Is it possible the Sox begin to chase because they consciously or subconsciously recognize they aren't getting a lot of the close calls? Or even some calls which aren't close. Case in point being Dalbec who was generally viewed as having a good eye and the ability to draw a decent amount of walks having to expand his zone because he can't get a call?
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jun 16, 2021 14:46:56 GMT -5
They don't get themselves out as much as the Sox do. They can't hit like the Sox can. I get that some of the function of being less passive at the plate is swinging and missing and chasing more, but I just feel like the Sox do too much chasing at times. There are a lot of pitchers who are in the majors because they can throw hard, not because they have any sense of command, yet the Sox should be patient to get themselves into good hitters' count and then zone in on pitches, but I feel like (and I could be wrong - this is anecdotal) that they chase too often and find themselves in pitchers count and then chase outside the strike zone. Or as Cora says, "Do damage in the strike zone", which is what the 2018 Red Sox were really good at. It's harder for the Sox because they have guys that are hackers. They're leading one off even. Hell, I like Arroyo but he doesn't walk either. Too many guys in the lineup who don't utilize the free pass. I get that the desire to get the starter out after 5 isn't as much when every reliever throws 100, but still. It's hard seeing the Sox get like 2 walks a game while they're doling out 4 or 5. I love grinding types of ABs, which the Sox don't have as much as I'd like. They can hit somewhat thought (or at least 2 - 5 can), and that will put you above the average team in the league in this era. Is it possible the Sox begin to chase because they consciously or subconsciously recognize they aren't getting a lot of the close calls? Or even some calls which aren't close. Case in point being Dalbec who was generally viewed as having a good eye and the ability to draw a decent amount of walks having to expand his zone because he can't get a call? Hard to know. I'm not a big fan of the "blame game" as far as umpires go, but it will be good once the strike zone, whatever it exactly is, gets standardized.
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Post by patford on Jun 16, 2021 15:09:23 GMT -5
Is it possible the Sox begin to chase because they consciously or subconsciously recognize they aren't getting a lot of the close calls? Or even some calls which aren't close. Case in point being Dalbec who was generally viewed as having a good eye and the ability to draw a decent amount of walks having to expand his zone because he can't get a call? Hard to know. I'm not a big fan of the "blame game" as far as umpires go, but it will be good once the strike zone, whatever it exactly is, gets standardized. Just after I typed my previous comment I was watching the Rays-White Sox. Yandy Diaz drew a lead off walk on five pitches without swinging the bat. The first pitch was a ball. The second pitch was right down the middle and was called a strike. The third pitch was clearly a strike and was called a ball. Big change right there. 1-2 v. 2-1. A complete reversal from hitter to pitcher. A hitter down two strikes with one ball is in a bad spot. Two of the remaining three pitches called balls were close. One was on the edge. Can a hitter take those pitches when he is down in the count?
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Post by fanofredsox on Jun 16, 2021 16:08:27 GMT -5
BOS Lineup
M Gonzalez (S) 2B A Verdugo (L) CF J Martinez (R) LF X Bogaerts (R) SS R Devers (L) 3B H Renfroe (R) RF C Vázquez (R) C B Dalbec (R) 1B G Richards (R) P
ATL Lineup
R Acuña (R) RF F Freeman (L) 1B O Albies (S) 2B A Almonte (S) LF A Riley (R) 3B D Swanson (R) SS K Smith (R) C G Heredia (R) CF I Anderson (R) P
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Post by Soxfansince1971 on Jun 16, 2021 16:19:31 GMT -5
Hard to know. I'm not a big fan of the "blame game" as far as umpires go, but it will be good once the strike zone, whatever it exactly is, gets standardized. Just after I typed my previous comment I was watching the Rays-White Sox. Yandy Diaz drew a lead off walk on five pitches without swinging the bat. The first pitch was a ball. The second pitch was right down the middle and was called a strike. The third pitch was clearly a strike and was called a ball. Big change right there. 1-2 v. 2-1. A complete reversal from hitter to pitcher. A hitter down two strikes with one ball is in a bad spot. Two of the remaining three pitches called balls were close. One was on the edge. Can a hitter take those pitches when he is down in the count? It seems I have heard and read a lot about umpires getting calls wrong this year (way more than normal). Is it because of the possibility of robo umpires or because the umpires are worse than before (maybe covid affected their eyesight and judgement)....?
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jun 16, 2021 16:36:02 GMT -5
BOS Lineup M Gonzalez (S) 2B A Verdugo (L) CF J Martinez (R) LF X Bogaerts (R) SS R Devers (L) 3B H Renfroe (R) RF C Vázquez (R) C B Dalbec (R) 1B G Richards (R) P ATL Lineup R Acuña (R) RF F Freeman (L) 1B O Albies (S) 2B A Almonte (S) LF A Riley (R) 3B D Swanson (R) SS K Smith (R) C G Heredia (R) CF I Anderson (R) P Geez, why must Marwin play virtually every day?
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Post by scottysmalls on Jun 16, 2021 17:20:30 GMT -5
BOS Lineup M Gonzalez (S) 2B A Verdugo (L) CF J Martinez (R) LF X Bogaerts (R) SS R Devers (L) 3B H Renfroe (R) RF C Vázquez (R) C B Dalbec (R) 1B G Richards (R) P ATL Lineup R Acuña (R) RF F Freeman (L) 1B O Albies (S) 2B A Almonte (S) LF A Riley (R) 3B D Swanson (R) SS K Smith (R) C G Heredia (R) CF I Anderson (R) P Geez, why must Marwin play virtually every day? He's been a great fielder, but man the lineup feels short with him and a pitcher both in it.
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Post by Guidas on Jun 16, 2021 17:43:20 GMT -5
Marwin, Kiké, Santana and Arroyo should all be practicing bunting against the shift. Every day. And then employing it.
It would run up their OBPs and BAs and force teams to either adjust or give the Sox free baserunners who otherwise would be nearly automatic outs (except for Arroyo).
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Post by julyanmorley on Jun 16, 2021 17:47:47 GMT -5
Santana missing three straight starts makes me think he's nearing the end of the line. Cora had been splitting playing time pretty equally between the worst starters and the bench.
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Post by voiceofreason on Jun 16, 2021 18:20:13 GMT -5
Marwin, Kiké, Santana and Arroyo should all be practicing bunting against the shift. Every day. And then employing it. It would run up their OBPs and BAs and force teams to either adjust or give the Sox free baserunners who otherwise would be nearly automatic outs (except for Arroyo). I agree completely, at their level they should be able to bunt effectively.
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Post by Soxfansince1971 on Jun 16, 2021 18:25:53 GMT -5
Santana missing three straight starts makes me think he's nearing the end of the line. Cora had been splitting playing time pretty equally between the worst starters and the bench. Santana is 5 for 48 which is BA of .104 and OBP of .189. He needs more time in the batting cage than the lineup!
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Post by manfred on Jun 16, 2021 18:28:07 GMT -5
I do not get shifting on Verdugo. He seems more able to go the other way than anyone on the team.
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