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Post by orion09 on Jun 15, 2021 18:32:54 GMT -5
Thought I’d start a thread for discussion of the sticky stuff ban.
What I don’t understand is what they’re going to do about sunscreen. Are they just going to ban players from wearing it? Still seems like a grey area to me.
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Post by orion09 on Jun 15, 2021 18:41:20 GMT -5
Meanwhile, lots of players are unhappy. It’ll be interesting to see if injuries tick up because guys are changing their mechanics.
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Post by julyanmorley on Jun 15, 2021 19:04:15 GMT -5
I don't have a problem with anyone that was cheating once it became clear that MLB was going to let everyone get away with it. It's hard to stomach the whining that they only get three weeks notice that the rules are going to be enforced, though.
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Post by wcsoxfan on Jun 15, 2021 19:38:55 GMT -5
I don't have a problem with anyone that was cheating once it became clear that MLB was going to let everyone get away with it. It's hard to stomach the whining that they only get three weeks notice that the rules are going to be enforced, though. I agree that it's whining (Glasnow is essentially saying that he can't throw his pitches without cheating), but it does bring into question the level of MLB's competence. MLB has known that pitchers use just about any sticky substance they can get their hands on to enhance their pitching. If they had been forward looking they could have foreseen that the use of these foreign substances would have continued to grow and push past the envelope as pitchers gain more and more of an advantage. But instead they see pitchers dominating 6 weeks into the season and make a reactionary panic move. They should have issues a warning/reminder that anyone found using a foreign substance will be ejected/fined/suspended, without taking additional measures. This wouldn't have fixed the issue, but it would have given a warning that MLB could follow-up on in the offseason with a more robust plan. I also believe that MLB should conduct analysis of all of the substances and make a re-determination as to what should, and shouldn't, be allowed. |
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Post by greenmonster on Jun 15, 2021 20:30:24 GMT -5
Apparently SpiderTack was holding Glasnow's UCL together
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Jun 15, 2021 22:42:14 GMT -5
I don't have a problem with anyone that was cheating once it became clear that MLB was going to let everyone get away with it. It's hard to stomach the whining that they only get three weeks notice that the rules are going to be enforced, though. I agree that it's whining (Glasnow is essentially saying that he can't throw his pitches without cheating), but it does bring into question the level of MLB's competence. MLB has known that pitchers use just about any sticky substance they can get their hands on to enhance their pitching. If they had been forward looking they could have foreseen that the use of these foreign substances would have continued to grow and push past the envelope as pitchers gain more and more of an advantage. But instead they see pitchers dominating 6 weeks into the season and make a reactionary panic move. They should have issues a warning/reminder that anyone found using a foreign substance will be ejected/fined/suspended, without taking additional measures. This wouldn't have fixed the issue, but it would have given a warning that MLB could follow-up on in the offseason with a more robust plan. I also believe that MLB should conduct analysis of all of the substances and make a re-determination as to what should, and shouldn't, be allowed. That’s actually not at all what Glasnow was saying. As a matter of fact he was pretty much saying the opposite. He has no problem executing the pitches, it’s just requiring more stress to be put on his elbow to control them without any sort of grip substance. Which is true. It doesn’t help that MLB is constantly tinkering with the balls I understand where he’s coming from. This is nothing more than the league trying to increase offense and I’ve had enough of people trying to paint this as a cheating/morality issue when it’s something the games blatantly allowed for years. |
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Post by incandenza on Jun 16, 2021 0:23:57 GMT -5
I agree that it's whining (Glasnow is essentially saying that he can't throw his pitches without cheating), but it does bring into question the level of MLB's competence. MLB has known that pitchers use just about any sticky substance they can get their hands on to enhance their pitching. If they had been forward looking they could have foreseen that the use of these foreign substances would have continued to grow and push past the envelope as pitchers gain more and more of an advantage. But instead they see pitchers dominating 6 weeks into the season and make a reactionary panic move. They should have issues a warning/reminder that anyone found using a foreign substance will be ejected/fined/suspended, without taking additional measures. This wouldn't have fixed the issue, but it would have given a warning that MLB could follow-up on in the offseason with a more robust plan. I also believe that MLB should conduct analysis of all of the substances and make a re-determination as to what should, and shouldn't, be allowed. That’s actually not at all what Glasnow was saying. As a matter of fact he was pretty much saying the opposite. He has no problem executing the pitches, it’s just requiring more stress to be put on his elbow to control them without any sort of grip substance. Which is true. It doesn’t help that MLB is constantly tinkering with the balls I understand where he’s coming from. This is nothing more than the league trying to increase offense and I’ve had enough of people trying to paint this as a cheating/morality issue when it’s something the games blatantly allowed for years. Yeah. For whatever reason baseball tends to bring out an incredibly annoying moralism in people, but for all the talk of "cheating" this is essentially just an equipment management issue. MLB, in their usual fashion, appears to be totally botching it. I don't blame Glasnow for his frustration at all. |
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ericmvan
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Supposed to be working on something more important
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Post by ericmvan on Jun 16, 2021 2:22:56 GMT -5
I don't have a problem with anyone that was cheating once it became clear that MLB was going to let everyone get away with it. It's hard to stomach the whining that they only get three weeks notice that the rules are going to be enforced, though. I agree that it's whining (Glasnow is essentially saying that he can't throw his pitches without cheating), but it does bring into question the level of MLB's competence. MLB has known that pitchers use just about any sticky substance they can get their hands on to enhance their pitching. If they had been forward looking they could have foreseen that the use of these foreign substances would have continued to grow and push past the envelope as pitchers gain more and more of an advantage. But instead they see pitchers dominating 6 weeks into the season and make a reactionary panic move. They should have issues a warning/reminder that anyone found using a foreign substance will be ejected/fined/suspended, without taking additional measures. This wouldn't have fixed the issue, but it would have given a warning that MLB could follow-up on in the offseason with a more robust plan. I also believe that MLB should conduct analysis of all of the substances and make a re-determination as to what should, and shouldn't, be allowed.This^.
They caused the current problem my not realizing that a lighter ball would lead to even more strikeouts, and now they seem to be compensating for their mistake in an equally slipshod manner.
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Post by manfred on Jun 16, 2021 8:27:36 GMT -5
I agree that it's whining (Glasnow is essentially saying that he can't throw his pitches without cheating), but it does bring into question the level of MLB's competence. MLB has known that pitchers use just about any sticky substance they can get their hands on to enhance their pitching. If they had been forward looking they could have foreseen that the use of these foreign substances would have continued to grow and push past the envelope as pitchers gain more and more of an advantage. But instead they see pitchers dominating 6 weeks into the season and make a reactionary panic move. They should have issues a warning/reminder that anyone found using a foreign substance will be ejected/fined/suspended, without taking additional measures. This wouldn't have fixed the issue, but it would have given a warning that MLB could follow-up on in the offseason with a more robust plan. I also believe that MLB should conduct analysis of all of the substances and make a re-determination as to what should, and shouldn't, be allowed.This^.
They caused the current problem my not realizing that a lighter ball would lead to even more strikeouts, and now they seem to be compensating for their mistake in an equally slipshod manner.
I agree with all the bashing of MLB, but the one problem with the analysis of substances is… how do you police that on the field? If a guy has a streak of stuff on the back of his neck, is it the test-approved stuff or cheating? They get a rosin bag. I guess they could be provided with a squirt bottle. But once you start allowing some goo, it just seems like we’re back to where we are now. That said, I’m ok with it if there is a way I haven’t considered. |
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Post by voiceofreason on Jun 16, 2021 9:10:47 GMT -5
MLB has done everything you guys are saying they should have done.
They sent out a warning memo during Spring training.
They have been analyzing balls during the season and keeping them for evidence.
They gave the players plenty of notice that this was coming.
AND the batters were finally speaking up so it needed to be addressed. There are even pitchers out there who are glad this is happening as they were not doing it and that costs them performance, hence money.
SOME of the pitchers have taken this too far as the use of sunscreen and rosin has been considered acceptable thru the years for control reasons but SOME had to go further. So I say sour grapes to anyone complaining as those are the guys who took it too far period!! Is a corked bat any different? Cheaters are lucky they haven't been called out earlier.
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shagworthy
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Post by shagworthy on Jun 16, 2021 9:35:16 GMT -5
I don't have a problem with anyone that was cheating once it became clear that MLB was going to let everyone get away with it. It's hard to stomach the whining that they only get three weeks notice that the rules are going to be enforced, though. I agree that it's whining (Glasnow is essentially saying that he can't throw his pitches without cheating), but it does bring into question the level of MLB's competence. MLB has known that pitchers use just about any sticky substance they can get their hands on to enhance their pitching. If they had been forward looking they could have foreseen that the use of these foreign substances would have continued to grow and push past the envelope as pitchers gain more and more of an advantage. But instead they see pitchers dominating 6 weeks into the season and make a reactionary panic move. They should have issues a warning/reminder that anyone found using a foreign substance will be ejected/fined/suspended, without taking additional measures. This wouldn't have fixed the issue, but it would have given a warning that MLB could follow-up on in the offseason with a more robust plan. I also believe that MLB should conduct analysis of all of the substances and make a re-determination as to what should, and shouldn't, be allowed. My biggest issue with this isn't even the cheating/using of foreign substances. If you want to enforce the rules, fine, enforce the rules, but can the clown show of MLB or the Players Union litigate anything away from a camera or news column? I've never seen an industry so intent on torching itself from the inside out. Unilaterally doing this mid-season in a very public fashion in a year that when it concludes will feature an acrimonious battle between the Players Union and MLB will pretty much negate anything the industry is trying to do to grow the game. You can't publicly discredit the athletes and stars who put your sport on the map and expect anything good to come of it. |
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Post by julyanmorley on Jun 16, 2021 9:44:08 GMT -5
K rate by month:
April: 24.4%
May: 23.9%
June: 23.4%
Any guesses for July? I'll say 23.2%.
By the way, what's going on in the minors? The strikeout numbers are insane, is everyone using the stuff down there?
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Post by manfred on Jun 16, 2021 9:51:58 GMT -5
K rate by month: April: 24.4% May: 23.9% June: 23.4% Any guesses for July? I'll say 23.2%. By the way, what's going on in the minors? The strikeout numbers are insane, is everyone using the stuff down there? I don’t think this is all sticky stuff… which is part of the issue. As Eric pointed out, MLB changed the ball, then they do this crackdown… they react so quickly and at least what appears to be a bit thoughtlessly. Yet… watching ERod yesterday, he was striking out Braves batters throwing almost all fastballs in the first few innings. The Braves K’d 15 times! There is something far more fundamentally wrong, and it seems like MLB sort of hopes they can fix structural problems with quick fixes. I’m not arguing the sticky stuff isn’t a factor or that this won’t help a bit. But it seems like there is a much bigger problem that is harder to address. |
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Jun 16, 2021 10:02:14 GMT -5
i feel bad for Glasnow, it is awful to get hurt. I am not really sure whether MLB should integrate this during the season or not, but I am inclined to think that they are right to do so.
More importantly, for pitchers like Glasnow who think that the unintended consequences driven by the switch could have negative health outcomes, the unintended consequences began when they started abusing what was agreed upon (for years) privileges with hitters. He won't see that and give the negative press to the league, but that is how this should be viewed. The pitchers abused their limits, if injuries occur, while unfortunate, it is on them.
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Post by voiceofreason on Jun 16, 2021 10:19:34 GMT -5
K rate by month: April: 24.4% May: 23.9% June: 23.4% Any guesses for July? I'll say 23.2%. By the way, what's going on in the minors? The strikeout numbers are insane, is everyone using the stuff down there? It was 17.5% in 2008.... Sure a big part of that is the K becoming more acceptable while swinging for the fences but this makes for a boring game when balls aren't put in play. |
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Post by mandelbro on Jun 16, 2021 10:23:31 GMT -5
I don't have a problem with anyone that was cheating once it became clear that MLB was going to let everyone get away with it. It's hard to stomach the whining that they only get three weeks notice that the rules are going to be enforced, though. I have to disagree with the 3 weeks notice being reasonable. Like it or not, these aren't the days of Old Hoss Radbourn gambling and smoking and pitching 9 innings every night. MLB pitchers are extremely fine-tuned machines, that push the limit of how much velocity and spin homo sapiens can impart on a ball. It's unnatural, and that is evidenced in how many of them end up getting Tommy John surgery, having weird problems like Thoracic Outlet Syndrome, etc. Forget all of baseball - how many Red Sox pitchers and prospects have broken in the past 5 years? Immediately I can think of Carson Smith, Tyler Thornburg, Chris Sale, Eovaldi, Jay Groome, Anderson Espinoza, Bryan Mata shut down for the year, Josh Pennington had his career ended shortly after we traded him iirc. Kopech missed over a year. The fact that the pitchers can't do their job as described without getting hurt is a reflection of how fine the line is, that they have to walk to do it. So yeah, when Tyler Glasnow (a 6'7" human who throws 100 mph all game) says that a sudden mechanical tweak caused him to partially tear his UCL? I totally believe it. Introduce changes in the offseason. |
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Post by scottysmalls on Jun 16, 2021 10:24:03 GMT -5
MLB, in my opinion, needs to come up with an approved substance for pitchers to use which they have studied and measured the spin rate impact for. This could also allow them to come up with an easy way of testing that the substance the pitcher is using is in fact that same substance.
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Post by voiceofreason on Jun 16, 2021 10:26:22 GMT -5
MLB did try to get these guys to stop on their own but the guys cheating wouldn't stop, that is the bottom line. They were warned repeatedly but thought the league was bluffing.
MLB needs to come up with a ball that is consistent with a certain level of tackiness, it isn't rocket science. LOL or maybe actually it is when considering everything like keeping the ball in the park a bit more.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jun 16, 2021 10:27:18 GMT -5
K rate by month: April: 24.4% May: 23.9% June: 23.4% Any guesses for July? I'll say 23.2%. By the way, what's going on in the minors? The strikeout numbers are insane, is everyone using the stuff down there? I don’t think this is all sticky stuff… which is part of the issue. As Eric pointed out, MLB changed the ball, then they do this crackdown… they react so quickly and at least what appears to be a bit thoughtlessly. Yet… watching ERod yesterday, he was striking out Braves batters throwing almost all fastballs in the first few innings. The Braves K’d 15 times! There is something far more fundamentally wrong, and it seems like MLB sort of hopes they can fix structural problems with quick fixes. I’m not arguing the sticky stuff isn’t a factor or that this won’t help a bit. But it seems like there is a much bigger problem that is harder to address. Maybe part of it is what JD Martinez says when he says "it's a stuff over command league". What if you limit the pitchers on a roster to 10 or 11? Maybe it forces starters to stay in longer, stop throwing 110 MPH and actually pitch instead of throw as hard as they can to dodge contact? I mean I've watched some of these old classic games from the 1960s/1970s and you can see the slop that guys like Mike Cuellar or Bill Lee would throw, but their command was so good they could generate weak contact consistently. And yes, the changing of the ball every five minutes doesn't help either. Consistent strike zones would help as well. |
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Jun 16, 2021 10:36:32 GMT -5
That’s actually not at all what Glasnow was saying. As a matter of fact he was pretty much saying the opposite. He has no problem executing the pitches, it’s just requiring more stress to be put on his elbow to control them without any sort of grip substance. Which is true. It doesn’t help that MLB is constantly tinkering with the balls I understand where he’s coming from. This is nothing more than the league trying to increase offense and I’ve had enough of people trying to paint this as a cheating/morality issue when it’s something the games blatantly allowed for years. I don't agree to put this on the league officers, if that is what you are saying. They were forced to act quickly because the hitters began speaking out. Apparently, the hitters recognized that what was allowable bending of the rules has been taken to an extreme. I don't think you can look at this as anything but a cheating / morality issue. It took a lot for players to put this in the public domain. |
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Post by voiceofreason on Jun 16, 2021 10:53:12 GMT -5
For those who don't think it matters.
Percentage of fastballs with a spin rate over 2400 in 2017 21%.
2018 22%
2019 26%
2020 33%
Percentage of fastballs with a spin rate over 2400 in 2021 34%.
HBP is up also so it isn't about control as the pitchers are just looking for speed and spin at the expense of control.
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Post by incandenza on Jun 16, 2021 11:23:13 GMT -5
For those who don't think it matters. Percentage of fastballs with a spin rate over 2400 in 2017 21%. 2018 22% 2019 26% 2020 33% Percentage of fastballs with a spin rate over 2400 in 2021 34%. HBP is up also so it isn't about control as the pitchers are just looking for speed and spin at the expense of control. How much of this is due to, uh, substance abuse, and how much is due to statcast technology making it possible to measure spin rate and thus train/select pitchers for high spin rates? |
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Post by Oregon Norm on Jun 16, 2021 11:41:35 GMT -5
As I've suggested before, changes to the baseball have brought the law of unintended consequences into play. The visible break on many of the pitches I've watched being thrown is eye opening. That may be a direct reflection of the weight change to the ball.
That dovetails with the emphasis on spin rate, and pitchers having felt free to experiment with different substances to help them ramp that up. Given this perfect storm, MLB's goal of reducing K rates has been largely subverted.
The result is a hard (and fast) clampdown on additives. I'd be interested in the details of exactly what pitchers were told and how that differed from past admonitions if anyone knows.
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Post by foreverred9 on Jun 16, 2021 15:55:09 GMT -5
I don't have a problem with anyone that was cheating once it became clear that MLB was going to let everyone get away with it. It's hard to stomach the whining that they only get three weeks notice that the rules are going to be enforced, though. Especially given that they were notified in spring training that this would happen, so them complaining about it being just 3 weeks is them playing the spin game: www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2021/03/24/mlb-foreign-substances-baseball-pitchers-crackdown/And I'm not condoning MLB here, their behavior (or lack of) essentially forced players into this situation. But listening to players complain is like getting caught going 85 MPH in a 65 MPH zone. Just because everyone else is doing it doesn't mean that you get a free pass. You just happened to be the one caught. |
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Jun 16, 2021 17:12:35 GMT -5
Supposedly the Red Sox have gained the 3rd highest spin rate since last year, but is there any data that shows a change in the Red Sox spin rate since the change?
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