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7/2/-7/4 Red Sox @ Athletics Series Thread
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Post by wildsox on Jul 3, 2021 23:55:47 GMT -5
Cora says Santana stole on his own. Inexcusable
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Post by Jimmy on Jul 3, 2021 23:57:52 GMT -5
I guess I don't understand the difficulty of DFA Andriese for Valdez and then swap him out for Houck. Eventually Rios goes to AAA when Sale is ready. Chavis to AAA when Arroyo is ready. DFA Santana. I'd call up Duran but can understand them wanting to see if Franchy can handle 1b instead. At some point somebody will get injured and they can have both Cordero and Duran on the roster. I think the difficulty is that you need an innings eater in the pen. Andriese can go 3IP, Valdez 1IP. I agree with you and probably would do it anyways but that is the counter argument.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 4, 2021 0:04:15 GMT -5
I guess I don't understand the difficulty of DFA Andriese for Valdez and then swap him out for Houck. Eventually Rios goes to AAA when Sale is ready. Chavis to AAA when Arroyo is ready. DFA Santana. I'd call up Duran but can understand them wanting to see if Franchy can handle 1b instead. At some point somebody will get injured and they can have both Cordero and Duran on the roster. I think the difficulty is that you need an innings eater in the pen. Andriese can go 3IP, Valdez 1IP. I agree with you and probably would do it anyways but that is the counter argument. The idea is that Houck comes up and provides those innings. Keep on mind eventually Sale will displace somebody from the rotation into the pen and that pitcher can provide long relief.
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Post by benzinger on Jul 4, 2021 0:05:45 GMT -5
I guess I don't understand the difficulty of DFA Andriese for Valdez and then swap him out for Houck. Eventually Rios goes to AAA when Sale is ready. Chavis to AAA when Arroyo is ready. DFA Santana. I'd call up Duran but can understand them wanting to see if Franchy can handle 1b instead. At some point somebody will get injured and they can have both Cordero and Duran on the roster. I think the difficulty is that you need an innings eater in the pen. Andriese can go 3IP, Valdez 1IP. I agree with you and probably would do it anyways but that is the counter argument. Are you SURE Andriese can go 3 innings?
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Jul 4, 2021 0:10:42 GMT -5
Andriese has been toast for like two months and isn’t even going to be on the team next year so its weird that he has to blow a big game for it to be OK to DFA him.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Jul 4, 2021 0:15:03 GMT -5
He would clear waivers right now, I think. Valdez is the guy you'd recall. Had Andriese been this bad in his last outing, and they had done that then, they win this game. Both Andriese and Santana were absolutely brutal in this game and there is no reason they shouldn’t have been dfa-ed already. Arroyo is coming off the IL Monday in Anaheim. Put your hand up if you think Chavis should be optioned rather than Santana DFA'd.
Didn't think so.
Santana's making $1.3M and Andriese $2.1M. No one's going to claim them when they can get them for MLB minimum once they clear, so (as has been mentioned) the Sox can do something creative, but only if there is more than 1 team interested in taking the flyer. Note that the DFA'd player is going to end up as a free agent who can choose from any suitors, so a team that is interested but doesn't think they'll be chosen might be willing to take on a bit above MLB minimum, and you could strike a deal to that effect. It would basically be an auction: how much of the remaining salary are you willing to pay?
The creative part would be including a PTBNL in return for yet more cash. The list of guys, of course, is all those on the Rule 5 cusp, and the PTBNL is either a guy you're sure will be claimed, or, if no one fits that description, just the weakest of the bunch. I'm not sure this is actually a good strategy, but it is interesting!
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Post by manfred on Jul 4, 2021 0:16:55 GMT -5
You can’t say send Workman back out without acknowledging that is purely retrospect. If Cora sends him out for a third inning and he loses, these boards flame him for that.
I don’t disagree that Andriese is woeful. But it is a long season… if Whitlock and Barnes need a day, he is basically what you have. Maybe the blame goes back to Richards who can’t give innings on a day you know your best relievers can’t throw?
Cora can only work with what he has.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Jul 4, 2021 0:22:28 GMT -5
Both Andriese and Santana were absolutely brutal in this game and there is no reason they shouldn’t have been dfa-ed already. Arroyo is coming off the IL Monday in Anaheim. Put your hand up if you think Chavis should be optioned rather than Santana DFA'd.
Didn't think so.
Santana's making $1.3M and Andriese $2.1M. No one's going to claim them when they can get them for MLB minimum once they clear, so (as has been mentioned) the Sox can do something creative, but only if there is more than 1 team interested in taking the flyer. Note that the DFA'd player is going to end up as a free agent who can choose from any suitors, so a team that is interested but doesn't think they'll be chosen might be willing to take on a bit above MLB minimum, and you could strike a deal to that effect. It would basically be an auction: how much of the remaining salary are you willing to pay?
The creative part would be including a PTBNL in return for yet more cash. The list of guys, of course, is all those on the Rule 5 cusp, and the PTBNL is either a guy you're sure will be claimed, or, if no one fits that description, just the weakest of the bunch. I'm not sure this is actually a good strategy, but it is interesting!
Actually, the best creative thing: hey, we'll pay more of / the whole salary if you give us a low-minors PTBNL. Give us a list.
And if the list includes someone on the Arozarena Report (the ml equivalent of the Renfroe-Pivetta Report), you make the deal. Trade would be "Danny Santana and cash for a PTBNL."
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Post by tizzle on Jul 4, 2021 0:26:09 GMT -5
You can’t say send Workman back out without acknowledging that is purely retrospect. If Cora sends him out for a third inning and he loses, these boards flame him for that. I don’t disagree that Andriese is woeful. But it is a long season… if Whitlock and Barnes need a day, he is basically what you have. Maybe the blame goes back to Richards who can’t give innings on a day you know your best relievers can’t throw? Cora can only work with what he has. Nonsense. He had thrown 13 pitches. And I asked why Workamn couldn't go out for another inning before that happened. Lots of people here said they didn't want Andriese out there.
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Post by Jimmy on Jul 4, 2021 0:26:31 GMT -5
I think the difficulty is that you need an innings eater in the pen. Andriese can go 3IP, Valdez 1IP. I agree with you and probably would do it anyways but that is the counter argument. Are you SURE Andriese can go 3 innings? I didn’t say *pretty* innings!
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 4, 2021 0:28:47 GMT -5
Are you SURE Andriese can go 3 innings? I didn’t say *pretty* innings! You can always find a Ryan Weber out there to get pounded, DFA him and move on to the next one. It doesn't have to be Andriese and when Hiuck is available it becomes a moot point.
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Post by soxinsf on Jul 4, 2021 0:37:33 GMT -5
Cora says Santana stole on his own. Inexcusable There are always lots of Boston fans at the Coliseum when the Sox visit. There was a loud chorus of oh no and WTF, etc when Santana took off and got thrown out. If I could have posted in that moment, I would probably blamed Cora for trying a fast one rather than blaming Danny for a mistake we learned to avoid in sixth grade. Sadly, Danny has proven himself lacking again.
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Post by DesignatedForAssignment on Jul 4, 2021 0:38:07 GMT -5
Do you replace JD in LF now? JD, still not a late-inning defensive specialist
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Post by benzinger on Jul 4, 2021 0:49:32 GMT -5
Why Rios in the 8th?
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Post by tizzle on Jul 4, 2021 0:50:02 GMT -5
I’m still trying to figure out why Rios was out there after Taylor. If Ottavino was available(and we know he pitched later), why not just go to Ottavino in the 8th? He had looked OK in the last few outings and Cora wanted to see if he could be relied on in higher-leverage spots. I don't agree with it, but I didn't hate it. There's at least a rationale for it on a day where Barnes and Whitlock aren't available. Sending Richards out for another inning and putting in Andriese were the decisions that he deserves to be flayed for.
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Post by blizzards39 on Jul 4, 2021 2:02:06 GMT -5
I’m still trying to figure out why Rios was out there after Taylor. If Ottavino was available(and we know he pitched later), why not just go to Ottavino in the 8th? He had looked OK in the last few outings and Cora wanted to see if he could be relied on in higher-leverage spots. I don't agree with it, but I didn't hate it. There's at least a rationale for it on a day where Barnes and Whitlock aren't available. Sending Richards out for another inning and putting in Andriese were the decisions that he deserves to be flayed for. Was also bottom of the order. But ended up using Hernandez and O anyway. Made no sense. Workman was also a better option.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Jul 4, 2021 2:47:20 GMT -5
I’m still trying to figure out why Rios was out there after Taylor. If Ottavino was available(and we know he pitched later), why not just go to Ottavino in the 8th? He had looked OK in the last few outings and Cora wanted to see if he could be relied on in higher-leverage spots. I don't agree with it, but I didn't hate it. There's at least a rationale for it on a day where Barnes and Whitlock aren't available. Sending Richards out for another inning and putting in Andriese were the decisions that he deserves to be flayed for. Andriese Exit Velo his last outing, the Royals blowout: 88.5, 85.3, 51.6; 63.3, 92.3, 65.4, 103.3. He fanned 2 and walked nobody. That was after 7 days of inactivity where he presumably worked on the side to bring about those results. Giving him another shot was perfectly defensible. I actually had high hopes.
The alternative was bringing in Workman for a third inning. It is true that sitting down and getting back up is a thing. Some arms don't respond well to it, after years of not doing it more than once. Yes, Workman's pitch count was low. That wasn't the issue. Saying that Cora was wrong to stay away from having him try to work a third inning is claiming you know more about Workman's ability to do that than Cora does, which is absurd. And as manfred pointed out, had he coughed it up, people would have been all over Cora for asking Workman to do something he's essentially never done once he became a regular in MLB.
Furthermore, let me gently point this out:
After Workman surprised us all by not sucking, you wanted Cora to push his luck by letting him try a 3rd inning, which is something he essentially never does. And yet earlier ... After Richards surprised us all by not sucking, and Cora pushed his luck by letting him continue to face batters the third time, something he essentially never does well ... you say he should be flayed for it.
You can't have it both ways.
Personally, I agree with you about Richards. He had Rios, Taylor, Darwinzon and Sawamura to cover three innings to get to Ottavino as closer. I agree with trying Rios in higher lev, because he'd been so great his last 3 outings (I have to post what I have about him). Why not give him the sixth, as a clean inning? A lot less pressure than the eighth. If he does that, I think they win the game.
And the general problem does seem to go back to the game Barnes pitched with a 4-run lead, that ultimately made him unavailable tonight. You have to warm up a lesser pitcher along side him and have Barnes sit down the moment you score a 4th run, right? Or give a save opportunity to someone else, if you know that using him tonight will render him unavailable very soon -- as Bill James pointed out long ago, 3-run saves are very easy to convert. But it's likely that Cora considered both of those options and rejected them, for reasons we're not privy to.
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Post by unitspin on Jul 4, 2021 6:32:53 GMT -5
What I have noticed in the last month hernandez is being babied to the point they are not even getting a full inning from him in some appearances. He was suppose to be a multi inning rp. Andriese has been woeful, we have better options in the minors. With the sox this year they are hesitant to call guys up I do not understand it.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Jul 4, 2021 7:12:42 GMT -5
Workman looked pretty good. Andriese was throwing 92 with no control. If workman had blown the game I don’t think the blowback would’ve been that bad knowing the only other option was Andriese.
As far as Yack Daddy goes, I actually liked the move at the time. He hit 99 the other day and had decent control. That one just didn’t work out.
As far as Chavis goes, yeah I’d rather keep him than Santana and bringup Franchy. Chavis has sucked as well at least he makes good decisions.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Jul 4, 2021 7:23:41 GMT -5
Why was Andriese not DFA-ed already though? Valdez has been pretty good and helped us win an important game vs the MFYs.
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Post by greenmonster on Jul 4, 2021 7:57:23 GMT -5
Gonna have to be some kind of move today.....need a fresh arm in the pen and some length by Pivetta
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Post by patford on Jul 4, 2021 8:00:46 GMT -5
Funny to see people complaining about Barnes being overused one day and upset he wasn't used the next. I do agree about Andriese but who else was going to be used there?
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Post by scottysmalls on Jul 4, 2021 8:14:54 GMT -5
What strikes me as the biggest mistake is using Barnes in the 4 run game the other day, which rendered him unavailable today. On another note I agree with the sentiment that Andriese no longer belongs on the roster, they just simply have multiple better relief options in AAA, and they probably win with any of those guys (Valdez, Ort, Bazardo, Houck) up today. My guess is they don’t make the change until they get back from the west coast, and that Houck is the guy who comes up.
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Post by unitspin on Jul 4, 2021 8:55:38 GMT -5
Funny to see people complaining about Barnes being overused one day and upset he wasn't used the next. I do agree about Andriese but who else was going to be used there? Id like to see ort given a shot with the big club, he has looked good in his time in AAA.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Jul 4, 2021 9:18:45 GMT -5
Frustrating loss. Santana needs to go. Give Franchy or Duran a chance. Andriese needs to stick to pitching in 10-1 situations. I'd rather see Renfroe pitch in extras before him.
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