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Post by redsox04071318champs on Sept 27, 2021 21:53:31 GMT -5
It seemed to me that Vaz DID hold it long enough, It was clear on the replays that he didn't drop it until he stuck his right hand in there to take it out and throw it back to the P. (My memory of this may not be perfect. At the time I was so consumed by rage that it may have affected my ability to see straight, but I'm telling you what I recall.) It's also not CV's job to spoon-feed Joe West, who fancies himself a HOF umpire. Get the call right, Big Man. My biggest beef is that Cora didn't come out and demand that West check with the 1B umpire. As we know, West has famously shown a willingness to huddle with his crew to make sure a big call is correct. If Cora had gone out there and told him the replay clearly showed he was wrong, West would have checked with the 1B ump to avoid the embarrassment of blowing such a big call. I didn't say he didn't hold it long enough for it not to be a missed call. I said it was a missed call. But I don't know why he had to transfer it as quickly as he did. I've seen that kind of play thousands of times and the C always holds it for a second to make sure of the call.It just felt like typical Vazquez, making a style play rather than the smart one. I think you both make a good point. I think Vazquez should have been more careful in getting that ball out of his glove. You can't afford to drop that ball and take that chance that the umpire misses it. I also think the Sox should have been demonstrative that the ball was caught. They can't get a replay but Cora could have come out and asked for more umpire help. Maybe another umpire saw that it was a drop on the transfer. Before replay the Sox got screwed twice on calls in Game 6 of the 2004 ALCS and Francona asked for more help and the umpires conferred and reversed the calls both times, ironically because Joe West saw what actually happened and overruled the original umpire call. At the end of the day while it was huge, it would only have been out 2. The next batter Stanton hit one 9 miles after that.
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Post by tizzle on Sept 27, 2021 22:19:22 GMT -5
I didn't say he didn't hold it long enough for it not to be a missed call. I said it was a missed call. But I don't know why he had to transfer it as quickly as he did. I've seen that kind of play thousands of times and the C always holds it for a second to make sure of the call.It just felt like typical Vazquez, making a style play rather than the smart one. I think you both make a good point. I think Vazquez should have been more careful in getting that ball out of his glove. You can't afford to drop that ball and take that chance that the umpire misses it. I also think the Sox should have been demonstrative that the ball was caught. They can't get a replay but Cora could have come out and asked for more umpire help. Maybe another umpire saw that it was a drop on the transfer. Before replay the Sox got screwed twice on calls in Game 6 of the 2004 ALCS and Francona asked for more help and the umpires conferred and reversed the calls both times, ironically because Joe West saw what actually happened and overruled the original umpire call. At the end of the day while it was huge, it would only have been out 2. The next batter Stanton hit one 9 miles after that. Agree on all points. I'm not sure why people seem to be arguing the call was the reason we lost. Is the idea that Ottavino would have pitched better if he had gotten the K against Judge?
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Post by incandenza on Sept 27, 2021 23:30:44 GMT -5
I think you both make a good point. I think Vazquez should have been more careful in getting that ball out of his glove. You can't afford to drop that ball and take that chance that the umpire misses it. I also think the Sox should have been demonstrative that the ball was caught. They can't get a replay but Cora could have come out and asked for more umpire help. Maybe another umpire saw that it was a drop on the transfer. Before replay the Sox got screwed twice on calls in Game 6 of the 2004 ALCS and Francona asked for more help and the umpires conferred and reversed the calls both times, ironically because Joe West saw what actually happened and overruled the original umpire call. At the end of the day while it was huge, it would only have been out 2. The next batter Stanton hit one 9 miles after that. Agree on all points. I'm not sure why people seem to be arguing the call was the reason we lost. Is the idea that Ottavino would have pitched better if he had gotten the K against Judge? Well, yeah, that's the idea. He might not have, but he might've. A butterfly flaps its wings and all that. If, say, Ottavino was a hair less shaken up, and his pitch to Stanton was a hair closer to the edge of the zone, maybe it's a 390-foot flyout to center for the third out instead of a 450-foot homer.
Before the Judge double the Red Sox had a 53% win expectancy, which would have gone up to like 60% if he had K'd. After he doubled it was down to 25%, a 35% swing. So let's say the blown call was worth a third of a loss, maybe? Or since they lost in actual fact but would have had a 60% chance of winning if not for the blown call, say it's worth 60% of a loss? Or 50%, if you think Ottavino's chances against Stanton were poor in any case?
Kiké's called strike 3 on a ball 8 inches off the plate in the 7th was another big one...
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Post by tizzle on Sept 27, 2021 23:47:38 GMT -5
Agree on all points. I'm not sure why people seem to be arguing the call was the reason we lost. Is the idea that Ottavino would have pitched better if he had gotten the K against Judge? Well, yeah, that's the idea. He might not have, but he might've. A butterfly flaps its wings and all that. If, say, Ottavino was a hair less shaken up, and his pitch to Stanton was a hair closer to the edge of the zone, maybe it's a 390-foot flyout to center for the third out instead of a 450-foot homer.
Before the Judge double the Red Sox had a 53% win expectancy, which would have gone up to like 60% if he had K'd. After he doubled it was down to 25%, a 35% swing. So let's say the blown call was worth a third of a loss, maybe?
Kiké's called strike 3 on a ball 8 inches off the plate in the 7th was another big one...
Yeah, and maybe if they'd called it a strike, our entire staring rotation would've irreparably shrined their anuses int he resulting celebration. So, thank you, Joe West.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Sept 28, 2021 12:23:33 GMT -5
Spent the weekend outside taking the garden apart, getting ready for winter (if it comes!). I did peek at my phone as the games progressed and that got systematically uglier in the late innings. By Sunday I was fearful of my cellphone and what it would report. Can't imagine what it was like for the people in the Fenway stands.
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