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Tangent about lawyers being bad for the country or something
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Post by voiceofreason on Dec 26, 2021 15:32:22 GMT -5
It's interesting to think about what would happen if a CBA were established based on basic principles of fairness and justice, rather than just an ad hoc jury-rigged legal contraption anchored to status quo bias and the power of ownership. Like what would the system look like if everything were based upon these two principles: 1) People should be free to enter into whatever sort of contracts they want (with a minimum wage floor to prevent exploitation and unfair advantage to players who come from wealthier families). 2) MLB should aim for competitive balance among all teams. First, institute a very high level of revenue sharing. Second, you'd get rid of the draft entirely. It's really an abomination from the perspective of basic principles of justice and fairness. Instead teams and players would be free to enter into any sort of contract they'd like. But to maintain competitive balance each team would be able to spend only a fixed amount of money. The total pool would be set by an independent arbiter based on the actual value of all potential free agents - not the current artificially suppressed draft slot levels - along the lines of something like this analysis. There'd be lots of interesting approaches to the amateur free agent market. Some players would prefer guaranteed long-term contracts (10 year/$2 million contracts, that sort of thing); others might want highly incentive-laden deals. Teams would want enough years of control to last into a player's potential major league career, obviously, but there would be endless possible permutations in how they'd approach it: some would go all in on a small number of guys, others would spread their money around, etc.
Extensions could be offered at any point in a player's minor league career so that they'd have a chance at more guaranteed money just by improving their prospect status. The art of team resource allocation would be fascinating. Having given this multiple minutes of thought, I'm convinced it's the only system that would really be fair, and would also be very cool from a fan's perspective.
Fairness and justice when there are attorneys involved doesn't happen. Lawyers are paid to fight for their clients regardless of fairness or justice and more often than not the deeper pockets win. Justice has become an oxymoron in our country. Just look at all the legal arguments that the Trump loyalists tried to conjure up to keep him in office, the law is forever twisted by the powers that be. |
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Post by incandenza on Dec 26, 2021 17:24:36 GMT -5
It's interesting to think about what would happen if a CBA were established based on basic principles of fairness and justice, rather than just an ad hoc jury-rigged legal contraption anchored to status quo bias and the power of ownership.
Like what would the system look like if everything were based upon these two principles: 1) People should be free to enter into whatever sort of contracts they want (with a minimum wage floor to prevent exploitation and unfair advantage to players who come from wealthier families). 2) MLB should aim for competitive balance among all teams.
First, institute a very high level of revenue sharing.
Second, you'd get rid of the draft entirely. It's really an abomination from the perspective of basic principles of justice and fairness. Instead teams and players would be free to enter into any sort of contract they'd like.
But to maintain competitive balance each team would be able to spend only a fixed amount of money. The total pool would be set by an independent arbiter based on the actual value of all potential free agents - not the current artificially suppressed draft slot levels - along the lines of something like this analysis.
There'd be lots of interesting approaches to the amateur free agent market. Some players would prefer guaranteed long-term contracts (10 year/$2 million contracts, that sort of thing); others might want highly incentive-laden deals. Teams would want enough years of control to last into a player's potential major league career, obviously, but there would be endless possible permutations in how they'd approach it: some would go all in on a small number of guys, others would spread their money around, etc.
Extensions could be offered at any point in a player's minor league career so that they'd have a chance at more guaranteed money just by improving their prospect status. The art of team resource allocation would be fascinating.
Having given this multiple minutes of thought, I'm convinced it's the only system that would really be fair, and would also be very cool from a fan's perspective.
Fairness and justice when there are attorneys involved doesn't happen. Lawyers are paid to fight for their clients regardless of fairness or justice and more often than not the deeper pockets win. Justice has become an oxymoron in our country. Just look at all the legal arguments that the Trump loyalists tried to conjure up to keep him in office, the law is forever twisted by the powers that be. But those arguments... failed. So where was the injustice?
Anyway, I am aware this CBA scenario isn't going to happen and lots of unfair stuff happens in society. But I also think we're too quick to put ourselves in a box of thinking in terms of what's feasible; too quick to adopt the cynical knowing stance that limits the scope of our imaginations. It's worth it sometimes to go back to first principles, if for no other reason than to remind ourselves that there really are injustices in the world.
(Okay, that may be a little too lofty an idea for a CBA thread. Consider it a cogitation for the holiday season.)
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Post by voiceofreason on Dec 26, 2021 19:29:54 GMT -5
Fairness and justice when there are attorneys involved doesn't happen. Lawyers are paid to fight for their clients regardless of fairness or justice and more often than not the deeper pockets win. Justice has become an oxymoron in our country. Just look at all the legal arguments that the Trump loyalists tried to conjure up to keep him in office, the law is forever twisted by the powers that be. But those arguments... failed. So where was the injustice?
Anyway, I am aware this CBA scenario isn't going to happen and lots of unfair stuff happens in society. But I also think we're too quick to put ourselves in a box of thinking in terms of what's feasible; too quick to adopt the cynical knowing stance that limits the scope of our imaginations. It's worth it sometimes to go back to first principles, if for no other reason than to remind ourselves that there really are injustices in the world.
(Okay, that may be a little too lofty an idea for a CBA thread. Consider it a cogitation for the holiday season.)
Take your second thought and apply it to your first. In the imaginations of those who push those lies they have planted a seed that has taken root in millions and are growing. To what end we have yet to see. I know no politics so that's the end of that. It is too bad that what is fair probably won't happen when it comes to the CBA. |
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Post by chrisfromnc on Dec 26, 2021 23:30:30 GMT -5
Take your second thought and apply it to your first. In the imaginations of those who push those lies they have planted a seed that has taken root in millions and are growing. To what end we have yet to see . I know no politics so that's the end of that.It is too bad that what is fair probably won't happen when it comes to the CBA. Apparently you don't care even if you do know. You dropped a turd in the punch bowl and want everyone to ignore it. You had 3 zillion different examples to choose from to illustrate an attorney advocating for a client, but you choose to use the most politically polarizing guy in our time. Brilliant. It baffles me why several posters here simply cannot follow a simple rule. The fifth time a moderator said to keep politics out of this board was not enough? |
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Post by incandenza on Dec 27, 2021 11:40:16 GMT -5
Take your second thought and apply it to your first. In the imaginations of those who push those lies they have planted a seed that has taken root in millions and are growing. To what end we have yet to see . I know no politics so that's the end of that.It is too bad that what is fair probably won't happen when it comes to the CBA. Apparently you don't care even if you do know. You dropped a turd in the punch bowl and want everyone to ignore it. You had 3 zillion different examples to choose from to illustrate an attorney advocating for a client, but you choose to use the most politically polarizing guy in our time. Brilliant. It baffles me why several posters here simply cannot follow a simple rule. The fifth time a moderator said to keep politics out of this board was not enough? Well now that this is an off-topic thread, let me go ahead and say that it's completely bananas to treat this question as "polarizing" - the question, that is, of whether the results of a presidential election ought to have been overturned, and democracy essentially ended in this country.
It's not actually the case that we never, or shouldn't, mention politics on this board. We can say that racism is bad. Or that it was good that the Allies won WWII. "Free and fair election results should be respected" ought to be one of those completely unobjectionable, uncontested statements. The fact that it isn't is what's so troubling.
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Post by voiceofreason on Dec 27, 2021 12:53:07 GMT -5
Chris I don't know what kind of lawyer you are but there are many that are not the problem with this country and I'm going to guess that you are in that group. I knew you were a lawyer and was not in any way directing that comment at you.
Truth be told you know I am not wrong, lawyers are paid to represent one side in a conflict. That is their job, not working towards what is fair. The better they are at winning the more they make and they create demand for their services. The examples of "being too good" are endless but I get it, they are doing their job.
Keeping it to sports. It is going on right now in baseball but a great example is how they drove up the signing costs for 1st rd picks in the NFL, those guys were great salesman and negotiators. But it was terrible for the sport, terrible for the teams and the NFL did the right thing in changing the system. Bottom line is they used the leverage they had over teams to the extreme.
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Post by voiceofreason on Dec 27, 2021 13:07:59 GMT -5
Apparently you don't care even if you do know. You dropped a turd in the punch bowl and want everyone to ignore it. You had 3 zillion different examples to choose from to illustrate an attorney advocating for a client, but you choose to use the most politically polarizing guy in our time. Brilliant. It baffles me why several posters here simply cannot follow a simple rule. The fifth time a moderator said to keep politics out of this board was not enough? Well now that this is an off-topic thread, let me go ahead and say that it's completely bananas to treat this question as "polarizing" - the question, that is, of whether the results of a presidential election ought to have been overturned, and democracy essentially ended in this country.
It's not actually the case that we never, or shouldn't, mention politics on this board. We can say that racism is bad. Or that it was good that the Allies won WWII. "Free and fair election results should be respected" ought to be one of those completely unobjectionable, uncontested statements. The fact that it isn't is what's so troubling.
You would hope that people would be big enough to admit they were wrong and the man is what his Chief of Staff General Kelly said he was, which is the most flawed human being he has ever met. Or his Secretary of Defense, 4 star General Mattis when he said he was a threat to the Constitution and the country bent on dividing us. Two staunch Republicans by the way. I consider myself an Independent and you are right, facts are facts they aren't debatable but that is what we have in America today, alternative facts. We should be able to discuss policy and people are entitled to their opinions but racism isn't a position that should be debated, their isn't really two sides. There is right and there is wrong. Morality is disappearing. |
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 27, 2021 13:29:43 GMT -5
All the talk about facts, alternate facts, fake news and eliminating debate or even questioning anything is an assault on the freedom of speech. Either we can live in a world with state-sponsored media without ever questioning it, or we can be free once again.
Facts that are actually facts, can withstand scrutiny. Same with science. If there are a bunch of corrupt liars telling you what the facts are, you better scrutinize it. I tend to question the 'truth' that is told by people who are fighting for the trillions of dollars and unlimited political power that are at stake. That is the exact place where corruption begins and absolutely anything will be said and done to make unlimited gains.
Sorry, I was raised to question everything. On all sides. Even when it's uncomfortable. No one can tell me what the facts are without me doing my own research and using the critical reasoning skills that I have developed over a lifetime of questioning everything. What they do to people like me doesn't work because there are a lot more than two sides to absolutely every issue that they try to lump people into over.
Or in other words, divide and conquer so that you fight with each other do not notice that the political and financial elite have destroyed everything for their complete takeover of the planet. That's the main fact.
Also, things aren't going to be fixed by voting for a different person. They won't even get better.
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 27, 2021 13:50:25 GMT -5
Apparently you don't care even if you do know. You dropped a turd in the punch bowl and want everyone to ignore it. You had 3 zillion different examples to choose from to illustrate an attorney advocating for a client, but you choose to use the most politically polarizing guy in our time. Brilliant. It baffles me why several posters here simply cannot follow a simple rule. The fifth time a moderator said to keep politics out of this board was not enough? Well now that this is an off-topic thread, let me go ahead and say that it's completely bananas to treat this question as "polarizing" - the question, that is, of whether the results of a presidential election ought to have been overturned, and democracy essentially ended in this country.
It's not actually the case that we never, or shouldn't, mention politics on this board. We can say that racism is bad. Or that it was good that the Allies won WWII. "Free and fair election results should be respected" ought to be one of those completely unobjectionable, uncontested statements. The fact that it isn't is what's so troubling.
Yup, yup, and totally yup. Wonder if there was this much freaking debate when Nixon resigned over the Watergate scandal. Absolutely ridiculous what's going on. Now we're actually "debating" what actually occurred on January 6, 2021 and who is responsible? Really? |
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Post by voiceofreason on Dec 27, 2021 15:08:11 GMT -5
All the talk about facts, alternate facts, fake news and eliminating debate or even questioning anything is an assault on the freedom of speech. Either we can live in a world with state-sponsored media without ever questioning it, or we can be free once again. Facts that are actually facts, can withstand scrutiny. Same with science. If there are a bunch of corrupt liars telling you what the facts are, you better scrutinize it. I tend to question the 'truth' that is told by people who are fighting for the trillions of dollars and unlimited political power that are at stake. That is the exact place where corruption begins and absolutely anything will be said and done to make unlimited gains. Sorry, I was raised to question everything. On all sides. Even when it's uncomfortable. No one can tell me what the facts are without me doing my own research and using the critical reasoning skills that I have developed over a lifetime of questioning everything. What they do to people like me doesn't work because there are a lot more than two sides to absolutely every issue that they try to lump people into over. Or in other words, divide and conquer so that you fight with each other do not notice that the political and financial elite have destroyed everything for their complete takeover of the planet. That's the main fact. Also, things aren't going to be fixed by voting for a different person. They won't even get better. I do more reading and research than I should. I walk around the statue and look at it from all perspectives, reading many points of view. I hardly ever watch anything political as they are all slanted. I prefer to read and have a solid enough foundation of knowledge to know when I am reading something that is slanted or biased. And that goes for both the right and the left. When incandeza says their should be universal agreement that doing everything you can to overthrow an election and push for an insurrection there really isn't much to debate there. Period end of story. Of course this country is built on what you said about questioning, that is why there are checks and balances. As for the elite you are right, their greed is at the root of many problems. We are all entitled to opinions but it isn't our right to accept blatant lies that threaten the country. Like the Big Lie that has so many people on the right believing the election was stolen, it is planting seeds of unrest that could lead to doom. That is not ok. Every court in the land including every single GOP appointee has said as much. |
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 27, 2021 16:31:14 GMT -5
All the talk about facts, alternate facts, fake news and eliminating debate or even questioning anything is an assault on the freedom of speech. Either we can live in a world with state-sponsored media without ever questioning it, or we can be free once again. Facts that are actually facts, can withstand scrutiny. Same with science. If there are a bunch of corrupt liars telling you what the facts are, you better scrutinize it. I tend to question the 'truth' that is told by people who are fighting for the trillions of dollars and unlimited political power that are at stake. That is the exact place where corruption begins and absolutely anything will be said and done to make unlimited gains. Sorry, I was raised to question everything. On all sides. Even when it's uncomfortable. No one can tell me what the facts are without me doing my own research and using the critical reasoning skills that I have developed over a lifetime of questioning everything. What they do to people like me doesn't work because there are a lot more than two sides to absolutely every issue that they try to lump people into over. Or in other words, divide and conquer so that you fight with each other do not notice that the political and financial elite have destroyed everything for their complete takeover of the planet. That's the main fact. Also, things aren't going to be fixed by voting for a different person. They won't even get better. I do more reading and research than I should. I walk around the statue and look at it from all perspectives, reading many points of view. I hardly ever watch anything political as they are all slanted. I prefer to read and have a solid enough foundation of knowledge to know when I am reading something that is slanted or biased. And that goes for both the right and the left. When incandeza says their should be universal agreement that doing everything you can to overthrow an election and push for an insurrection there really isn't much to debate there. Period end of story. Of course this country is built on what you said about questioning, that is why there are checks and balances. As for the elite you are right, their greed is at the root of many problems. We are all entitled to opinions but it isn't our right to accept blatant lies that threaten the country. Like the Big Lie that has so many people on the right believing the election was stolen, it is planting seeds of unrest that could lead to doom. That is not ok. Every court in the land including every single GOP appointee has said as much. Pretty much every election is stolen before it even begins because all candidates are carefully chosen as acceptable by those really in power. Including Trump. It's not as if a candidate that wants to take money creation away from banks can possibly ever win even if 99.9% of the voters wanted it. What happened to Bernie Sanders and Ron Paul other than the Democrat and Republican parties doing everything in their power to make sure that they didn't get the nomination? Was there a single Democrat voter who had Joe Biden as their first choice? There are way bigger lies than what you're talking about. Threaten the country? It's long gone already. Covid and inflation finished off the middle class forever. |
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Post by voiceofreason on Dec 28, 2021 11:49:00 GMT -5
I know what you are referring to and I partially agree, I have seen it upclose on more than one occasion. Friends who were really successful, popular and charismatic approached to run for office by the local operatives. Sometimes by a party that they completely disagreed with, how ironic. People still need to vote though and the integrity of the vote is what must be protected, that I believe is what is important. That is what is being attacked at the moment.
The rich elite have too much to do with who gets elected for sure but that is why Citizens United needs to be revoked. If you take a look at who gets elected and who is pulling their strings it isn't easy to see the negative effects. I mean really is their any doubt that Madison Cauthorn, Lauren Boebert and MTG are in over their heads? I know this reads like I am a staunch Dem but I assure you that is not the case. If I was to handpick the 2016 President it would have been John Kasich. He has a great record as a politician that gets things done and is willing to work across the aisle to do what is best for the people. Something that is unheard of these days and much needed rather than than the sabre rattling of today. He wasn't elected because he lacks charisma, is too matter of fact and doesn't completely bend to the will of the GOP.
The fact is Cauthorn has never even had a real job and Boebert got her GED months before her campaign, they are simply electable mouth pieces. He is handsome and well spoken, she is attractive and promotes guns, that's enough to get those local votes along with the right people behind them.
I am friends with people who are high up on the list of political operatives in my area. I was at many political events for the candidates in 2016 as they were the ones putting them on. One is so influential she had many of these in her barn, it is no ordinary barn. I am only saying this as a way to say yeah I have had just a little bit of an upfront view of politics behind the curtain. And sure this has been going on forever.
But Jimed we have not lost, all is not lost. Once the GOP is not held hostage by Trump they will have the chance to rebound and be a serious party once again. And with the hope that Citizens United is repealed then maybe the playing field won't be controlled by big money interests quite as much. The important thing right now is the integrity of the vote, once that is lost then Democracy is on a very slippery slope.
Last thought in regards to your comment about banks is that white collar crime needs to be addressed. It is a huge problem and nobody ever goes to jail let alone have to truly pay for their misdeeds. That is another subject along with the politicizing of the Supreme Court, sure politics has always been involved but the Federalist Society has been working for 40 years to change the court. They have finally got a pretty strong hold on it and that is not a good thing.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 30, 2021 12:47:39 GMT -5
Yeah politics isn't ok in off-topic either. Locking.
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