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Post by brendan98 on Apr 25, 2013 8:50:39 GMT -5
[/quote]Wow. I didn't know YouTube allowed porn. [/quote]
Great line!! Sorry, but I may have to use it.
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Post by wcsoxfan on Jun 16, 2013 16:30:12 GMT -5
Today Iglesias hit 2nd against a RHP while Middlebrooks hit 8th and Drew batted 9th.
If Farrel sees Iglesias' bat as superior, at this time, then he has to be considered a full-time starter with either Drew or Middlebrooks sitting depending on the matchups.
Not saying this is a long-term decision, but for the short term it would be dumb to bat that at these spots in the lineup and not play Iglesias everyday given his defense superiority to anyone who owns a baseball glove.
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Post by ray88h66 on Jun 16, 2013 16:33:23 GMT -5
Today Iglesias hit 2nd against a RHP while Middlebrooks hit 8th and Drew batted 9th. If Farrel sees Iglesias' bat as superior, at this time, then he has to be considered a full-time starter with either Drew or Middlebrooks sitting depending on the matchups. Not saying this is a long-term decision, but for the short term it would be dumb to bat that at these spots in the lineup and not play Iglesias everyday given his defense superiority to anyone who owns a baseball glove. Correct. Correct me if I'm wrong. I think Iggy could go o for 100 and still have a better ba than Middelbrooks . Didn't figure in Drew but I'm guessing he doesn't fair well either.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jun 16, 2013 20:55:52 GMT -5
There's something to that, but if you think Middlebrooks and Drew are better hitters in the long run, they're not going to get on track if they're not playing either. It's striking a balance between riding the hot hand in Iglesias and trying to get the guys who are better hitters in WMB and Drew going.
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Post by wcsoxfan on Jun 16, 2013 23:00:17 GMT -5
There's something to that, but if you think Middlebrooks and Drew are better hitters in the long run, they're not going to get on track if they're not playing either. It's striking a balance between riding the hot hand in Iglesias and trying to get the guys who are better hitters in WMB and Drew going. Good point. Although I think I would take it one step further and say that they may want to balance the hot-hand vs the better overall player as they would offer the most total value long term. Problem is....who is the better player between Middlebrooks, Iglesias and Drew?
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Post by Legion of Bloom on Jun 16, 2013 23:06:12 GMT -5
Drew is hitting .215/.305/.374 this season. At some point, you've got to cut your losses and give the job to Iglesias, who at the very least, can match that production and has the much superior glove, range and arm at SS.
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Jun 16, 2013 23:11:20 GMT -5
It seems like the Sox are waking up to the concept that they may need to expedite plan X before another month or 2 go by. They are putting themselves in position to be able to implement that a little quicker now. I'm sure Xander earned the promotion and apparently this is all organic and natural without the exigencies involved but it doesn't look like Middlebrooks is coming around anytime soon. It would seem that Drew should pull out of this funk but he has had a decent sample size now and has been relatively healthy. Drew's performance isn't that bad statistically but it doesn't seem that he is playing winning baseball overall. The hits seem to come in bunches and the defense has been steady but not Iglesias level at all. It just seems like we would be winning more games with Iglesias the starter.
The Texas Rangers became a totally different team when Andrus became their SS. And he jumped directly from AA ball. Maybe it's pure coincidence but that top SS defender seems to sharpen everything up. The pitchers seem better. The infield more cohesive. Just increased range alone would help and more DP...etc. Iglesias's fast hands turn more DP. I'm convinced of it.
I know Xander is potentially going to struggle a little and this is unconventional as heck but I would really consider trading Drew even if we lost a little of that salary. And Middlebrooks may never make the transition as a successful mlb player long term. I would probably keep Middlebrooks a while longer but I think we should consider trading Drew at the deadline. If someone gets hurt and we have to bring up Xander or Brock so be it. I think we can trade an OF as well (maybe Gomes ), and potentially a little starter depth ( Aceves ). People will say they are not worth much but there are teams who would give up some talent for any of those guys.
We would still have Webster, RDLR, Ranaudo and Workman for starter depth and it may actually be in our interest to try a few of those guys out right now.
The bottom line to me is Iglesias should be the starter at SS at this point IMO.
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Post by widewordofsport on Jun 16, 2013 23:25:43 GMT -5
When you find the anything but a PTBNL or cash considerations for Gomes, with that contract let me know.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jun 16, 2013 23:26:46 GMT -5
Drew is hitting .215/.305/.374 this season. At some point, you've got to cut your losses and give the job to Iglesias, who at the very least, can match that production and has the much superior glove, range and arm at SS. This assumes, however, that they're ok with that production. If they're not, but think that with playing time Drew will start hitting better, then it's worthwhile to keep giving him PT. Yes, if it were to become clear he's absolutely lost, then they would stop playing him. But this also would kill his trade value. There are many reasons to want Drew to get it going, even if you think he's the inferior option.
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Post by Legion of Bloom on Jun 16, 2013 23:32:41 GMT -5
I want Drew to get going, however, I'm starting to doubt that he ever will. He is a very streaky hitter, and just when you think he's about to snap out of the funk he goes on a slump again.
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Post by wcsoxfan on Jun 17, 2013 0:30:23 GMT -5
This assumes, however, that they're ok with that production. If they're not, but think that with playing time Drew will start hitting better, then it's worthwhile to keep giving him PT. Yes, if it were to become clear he's absolutely lost, then they would stop playing him. But this also would kill his trade value. There are many reasons to want Drew to get it going, even if you think he's the inferior option. That's true. Backup shortstops don't fetch too much on the trade market - then again, neither do shortstops hitting under .220. Best case for trade value is to play him every day and hope. Since Middlebrooks isn't hitting much/any better, and with the recent reports that his back is still bothering his hitting and fielding, they should place him back on the DL. This would enable Drew to get more playing time to add to his trade value while letting Iglesias play full-time at 3B. When Middlebrooks gets fully healthy, they can trade Drew. And if he doesn't rebound then you give Xander some practice at 3B and promote him (I know it starts his clock early - but if it gets them to the playoffs then it is worth it) Who would they promote if Middlebrooks hits the DL? Holt(on the 40-man) or Sutton(would pass through wavers)? (only needed for 2B and 3B backup duties)
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Jun 17, 2013 1:02:49 GMT -5
We only have Drew for a year and it's not like he is going to warrant a qualifying offer. Our best value might just be to trade him now, especially if it makes the team better with Iglesias as the starting SS. He has had some extra base hits and he has been a good defender. He does have a good history and he is needed around the league. He has proven himself to be healthy. I think we can eat some of his contract but get some value back now.
We have a lot more invested in Middlebrooks in terms of player value. Hopefully he comes back around. I know it is not good to rock the boat potentially with a winning team but Iglesias has probably at least proven he deserves a shot at this point. He is a potential ROY if they let him play and he has not hurt the team when he has been in there so far. Top level SS D might be just what this pitching staff needs.
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Post by feez732 on Jun 17, 2013 5:12:17 GMT -5
To me, the most frustrating part of this discussion is that I keep seeing people lump Middlebrooks and Drew together based on their batting average. Their is an enormous difference in the two players performance so far this season. Even if you take out the entire SSS defensive component of his WAR (which isn't even truly fair given his career numbers), he's still been clearly above replacement level this year. Will Middlebrooks in contrast absolutely has not.
Bringing this back to Iglesias though, I think I'm on the same page with the team. I'm actually really encouraged by what he's done so far this year, most notably the uptick in power, but as long as he's averaging 3+ starts a week, I'm not complaining. Ideally I'd like that closer to 4 or 5, but I do not see a point in throwing away solid depth this long before the all-star break. Let's get a longer look all of these guys and see both what the team's needs are and how the players are performing when we are closer to the trade deadline.
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Post by hammerhead on Jun 17, 2013 9:03:46 GMT -5
It seems like the Sox are waking up to the concept that they may need to expedite plan X before another month or 2 go by. They are putting themselves in position to be able to implement that a little quicker now. I'm sure Xander earned the promotion and apparently this is all organic and natural without the exigencies involved but it doesn't look like Middlebrooks is coming around anytime soon. It would seem that Drew should pull out of this funk but he has had a decent sample size now and has been relatively healthy. Drew's performance isn't that bad statistically but it doesn't seem that he is playing winning baseball overall. The hits seem to come in bunches and the defense has been steady but not Iglesias level at all. It just seems like we would be winning more games with Iglesias the starter. What does this even mean? There's plenty of time to see who deserves what as far as playing time etc. This is a good problem to have and it will all sort itself out. You don't trade someone who is at the basement of their potential value. This team needs to get it's starting pitching back to where it was, then we can worry about the other odds and ends. I wouldn't go shaking things up based on one bad series against Baltimore. This team matches up poorly with the Orioles.
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Jun 17, 2013 10:15:08 GMT -5
It seems like the Sox are waking up to the concept that they may need to expedite plan X before another month or 2 go by. They are putting themselves in position to be able to implement that a little quicker now. I'm sure Xander earned the promotion and apparently this is all organic and natural without the exigencies involved but it doesn't look like Middlebrooks is coming around anytime soon. It would seem that Drew should pull out of this funk but he has had a decent sample size now and has been relatively healthy. Drew's performance isn't that bad statistically but it doesn't seem that he is playing winning baseball overall. The hits seem to come in bunches and the defense has been steady but not Iglesias level at all. It just seems like we would be winning more games with Iglesias the starter. What does this even mean? There's plenty of time to see who deserves what as far as playing time etc. This is a good problem to have and it will all sort itself out. You don't trade someone who is at the basement of their potential value. This team needs to get it's starting pitching back to where it was, then we can worry about the other odds and ends. I wouldn't go shaking things up based on one bad series against Baltimore. This team matches up poorly with the Orioles. What it means to me is that we probably get nothing for Drew at year end, ergo why worry about him being at the basement of his potential value if that is even the case. Something is better than nothing. And I think the team plays better baseball with Iglesias as the starter at SS. We have a lot more concerns about the player value of Middlebrooks, since we control him another 4 years or so and he is a more valuable asset. And Iglesias is not primarily a 3rd baseman. I think we try to move Drew up to the trading deadline. Take the best offer then unless something changes like an injury...etc. We would lose some depth but it wouldn't kill us to have to call up Xander in a month. I'm pretty sure if Iglesias or Middlebrooks got hurt, Xander can hit .215 with some pop.
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Post by hammerhead on Jun 17, 2013 11:02:22 GMT -5
For what it's worth Xander will do better than that...
You are saying that the sox get nothing by keeping Drew. That's not entirely true, they get his above average play at SS and his clubhouse presence. I'm not saying don't trade Drew. I'm saying there is no reason to trade him until the deadline. He very well could have more value by then, you get another month of service out of him and you will know where the left side of the infield stands offensively at that point.
There is a non-zero chance that you trade Drew now and Iglesias goes back to his AAA level of play. Or there is a rash of injury, or Xander struggles at AAA. As much as I think Xander is a star and will be killing it by the AS break, there is a real possibility that he has a long adjustment period at AAA.
I just don't think it's a smart move to trade a player with all this flux going on. There is playing time for everyone now why mess with a team that's in 1st place. That is until you have to (at the deadline).
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Jun 17, 2013 11:41:02 GMT -5
Hammerdude! I think we are actually in agreement on Drew to a degree. I'd shop Drew but do it right up to the deadline. It wouldn't be a fire sale and if Drew gets real hot I could change my mind.
We would potentially lose a year of control over Xander if we had to bring him up too early. That is a factor but if we are in a pennant race and he might make a difference we may want to do that anyway. Xander seems to have his approach together pretty well.
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Post by Matt Huegel on Jun 17, 2013 12:58:19 GMT -5
Drew is 11th in OPS right now out of the 20 MLB shortstops that qualify, and that's including his slow start where he was basically still in spring training mode. I wouldn't be so quick to call him nearly worthless. We forget so soon all the shortstops the Red Sox went through since Nomar. It's a good problem to have.
Though I might think about something at the deadline if Iglesias keeps it up, I need to see more out of Iglesias' bat before I'm ready to forget his performance at the plate over the last three-plus years in minors.
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Post by wcsoxfan on Jun 17, 2013 22:57:41 GMT -5
Drew is 11th in OPS right now out of the 20 MLB shortstops that qualify, and that's including his slow start where he was basically still in spring training mode. I wouldn't be so quick to call him nearly worthless. We forget so soon all the shortstops the Red Sox went through since Nomar. It's a good problem to have. Though I might think about something at the deadline if Iglesias keeps it up, I need to see more out of Iglesias' bat before I'm ready to forget his performance at the plate over the last three-plus years in minors. For these reasons - putting Middlebrooks on the DL to get him healthy and find out what the Red Sox have in the other two. Drew is 10th in WAR per Fangraphs. The golden age of shortstops is dead and maybe we have to readjust our expectations.
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Post by wcsoxfan on Jun 17, 2013 23:03:43 GMT -5
Also
Jurickson Profar WAR: 0 Andrelton Simmons WAR: .9 Iglesias WAR: 1.4
He's got a shot to hold off Myers, Gausman and Profar for AL ROY if he gets the playing time.
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jimoh
Veteran
Posts: 3,990
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Post by jimoh on Jun 19, 2013 7:14:34 GMT -5
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Post by hammerhead on Jun 19, 2013 7:48:36 GMT -5
AS much as I'm not sold on Iglesias's offensive surge, this article (if you can call it that) sounds like someone trying to justify why they were wrong (sour grapes). A ground ball that finds a hole isn't always luck and a bloop that falls in front of an outfielder isn't always miss-hit. Ichiro made a living out of getting hits because he was so quick out of the box, Iglesias is no Ichiro, but it isn't a bad approach for someone with quick hands and speed. Has there been some luck? absolutely, but Iglesias seems to be putting himself in a good position for that luck to occur (keeping the ball down, quick out of the box, finding a pitch he can do something with). The guy seems to be carrying that luck for long enough where you start to wonder if something he's doing is increasing the odds.
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Post by jmei on Jun 19, 2013 7:55:44 GMT -5
AS much as I'm not sold on Iglesias's offensive surge, this article (if you can call it that) sounds like someone trying to justify why they were wrong (sour grapes). A ground ball that finds a hole isn't always luck and a bloop that falls in front of an outfielder isn't always miss-hit. Ichiro made a living out of getting hits because he was so quick out of the box, Iglesias is no Ichiro, but it isn't a bad approach for someone with quick hands and speed. Has there been some luck? absolutely, but Iglesias seems to be putting himself in a good position for that luck to occur (keeping the ball down, quick out of the box, finding a pitch he can do something with). The guy seems to be carrying that luck for long enough where you start to wonder if something he's doing is increasing the odds. Ichiro also sprayed line drives to all fields and basically never struck out. Ichiro's career LD% is 20.5%, Iglesias' is 16.8%. I will say that it is good that Iglesias is hitting a lot of ground balls (57.3% career), as he doesn't have enough raw power to drive fly balls out of the park. What's more likely: that Iglesias is the rare hitter able to sustain .350+ BABIPs or that his current 102 PA stretch is mostly good luck? Remember, the sample size here is still tiny tiny tiny. For a full-time hitter, it's basically a months worth of at bats. Can we wait a little longer before deciding to ignore basically his entire career prior to this year?
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Post by soxcentral on Jun 19, 2013 8:11:53 GMT -5
The Iglesias debate here has become awfully polarized. As is often the case, reality lies somewhere in the middle of the two sides.
Maybe it is time for the doubters to admit that the added slight power and maturity to his offensive game have made him at least a passable hitter, and promise to avoid giving the impending 'I told you so!' as soon as he goes into a 1 for 20 slump.
On the flip side, supporters of Iglesias (myself included) need to temper expectations that he has not all of a sudden become an elite hitter, and admit only that he's learned to hit enough to justify starting him at SS because of his defense. He is looking less like the black hole relegated to the #9 spot forever but is not now or ever going to be playing BECAUSE OF his hitting. His streak is certainly luck-inflated and is not going to last forever.
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Jun 19, 2013 8:34:54 GMT -5
What Iglesias's numbers tell me is that he is clearly a statistical outlier but the sample size is now large enough to indicate that at least something is going on besides luck. I think he has shown some skill along the way in terms of bunting and getting out of the box. Those personal attributes which give him range in the field also give him potentially an explosive start out of the box and his intense need to succeed right now is enhancing that. The kid is giving it all he has and in sports often that is the person who wins. He just wants it more. It's game 7 of the NBA playoffs every day of the week for him. He is in survival mode. And it's paying off for him. Every aspect of his being is tied up in this. His whole world has been baseball since day one of his life. And he is on his own here in the states.
Perhaps if every player could show that level of awareness they could use it in their game. Little guy Pedroia has used that to his advantage as well. I say run with it. It's a good thing.
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