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7/7-7/10 Red Sox vs. Yankees Series Thread
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Post by reasonabledoubt on Jul 10, 2022 22:24:25 GMT -5
Only thing that kept it from being a perfect night was Pivetta's tough outing. Yanks got him for a couple of bombs in NY in the 2nd game of the season and another 2 tonight. He also had a rough outing vs the Rays in his last start. Hopefully he'll get back on track in the Bronx on Friday.
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Post by wildsox on Jul 10, 2022 22:26:21 GMT -5
Great win for the Sox. Looks like that momentum from the night before carried over after all. While they gained nothing in the standings, they gained a lot from this series, I think. Those last two games had to be really good for their psyche. That's two comeback wins, one down to their last out and the other one, down 4 runs. When all is said and done, I feel good about their chances of making the playoffs. If they can fix either 1b/rf or both and supplement the bullpen and get their starters back healthy, they should be ready for October with a chance. If they fix enough of their issues, they can be dangerous in the post-season tournament. Of course you can say that about a bunch of teams, but it does fit for the Sox. Yeah this is how I feel, although im no as worried about the pen as other people. Whitlock, Houck and Schreiber plus rotation guys going to the pen for the playoffs… that will be fine. 1B and RF are much bigger needs to me. RF is also a long term need… its basically been ignored. I’ve wanted Joey Votto on this team for years. Professional Hitter and Gold Glover if he’s healthy
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Post by taiwansox on Jul 10, 2022 22:32:52 GMT -5
Yeah this is how I feel, although im no as worried about the pen as other people. Whitlock, Houck and Schreiber plus rotation guys going to the pen for the playoffs… that will be fine. 1B and RF are much bigger needs to me. RF is also a long term need… its basically been ignored. I’ve wanted Joey Votto on this team for years. Professional Hitter and Gold Glover if he’s healthy Yeah I had the same thought, but he has a no-trade clause and will absolutely not leave Cincinnati (very firm on making sure his kids grow up in one place)
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Post by benzinger on Jul 10, 2022 22:38:34 GMT -5
I’ve wanted Joey Votto on this team for years. Professional Hitter and Gold Glover if he’s healthy Yeah I had the same thought, but he has a no-trade clause and will absolutely not leave Cincinnati (very firm on making sure his kids grow up in one place) Votto also makes a zillion dollars, is declining and is injury prone. Think smaller.
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Post by incandenza on Jul 10, 2022 22:40:11 GMT -5
I think you missed my point. The Red Sox had a bunch of great players who played great. Then they had some sucky guys who sucked. Somehow it all came out to 108 wins and a World Series title. The confounding thing about this Yankee team is that they have a bunch of sucky guys playing great. ...But maybe these last two nights are the beginning of the reversion to the mean! (Except for Matt Freaking Carpenter.)
No, I did get your point. Steve Pearce was World Series MVP and pretty damn good during the season. If he wasn't the definition of journeyman, who is? I don't think the Sox had a lot of "great players" on the 2018 team. I mean, who are the HOFers? Probably Betts and Devers. Maybe Kimbrel? Well, Devers and Kimbrel didn't perform like HOFers that season. Great players for the Sox that year? Betts, JDM, arguably X, Sale for half a season and arguably Price. I mean, there were more HOFers on the 1970s Red Sox when they had Yaz, Fisk, Rice, Eckersley who replaced Fergie Jenkins and near HOFers in Evans, Tiant, and perhaps Lynn. The Sox won games with Velazquez and Johnson and Wright pitching well, with Kelly pitching like a god in the post-season. Brandon Phillips won them a game. I just think the 2018 Sox and 2022 Yankees are kind of cut from the same cloth, at least to this point. Hopefully the Yankees are at their worst in October, but until then, they're going to win 105 plus games. Anyways, at least for the last two games, they didn't look like a championship team, so at least there's that. The Sox got something good out of the split in the series. I just really disagree with you here. You're mentioning the Red Sox getting some good postseason performances from randos but that's not the comparison I'm making (obviously, since the Yankees haven't had a postseason yet). The Red Sox had a BUNCH of lousy players who played lousily, as you've pointed out, and it sort of baffles me to this day that they won 108 games.
Here are some of the guys the Yankees have: -Nestor Cortes, formerly DFA'd, now in the conversation for the Cy Young -Jose Trevino, career high of 0.6 fWAR, currently at 2.4 and on the All-Star team -Matt Freaking Carpenter, who's OPS the last four seasons has gone .726, .639, .580, 1.251 1.306 now
-Marwin Gonzalez - Marwin Gonzalez! - has a 103 wRC+ and 0.7 WAR. Do you remember that guy when he was on *our* team? -Clay Holmes, a nothing of a prospect and a nobody in Pittsburgh, has an 0.46 ERA and 1.5 WAR in 39 innings
Seriously, look at the Red Sox' stats from 2018. I'll give you Steve Pearce (though he only played in 50 games). Beyond that everyone who was really good for them was either a major star or a young blue chipper. In fact, a couple of their stars had negative WAR, in Hanley and Pedroia. You mentioned Johnson and Velazquez but those guys had ERAs in the 4s and worse peripherals; nothing like, say, Nestor Cortes, who has legitimately pitched great.
The Red Sox ended 2018 with 13 players in negative WAR territory; the Yankees currently have 1.
And then there's the fact that the guys on the Yankees who aren't journeymen are almost all playing at the top of any reasonable expectation. Rizzo, on a downward trajectory since 2019, is somehow back at his peak level of offensive performance. Taillon and Severino, with I believe 3 Tommy Johns between them, have somehow been healthy and effective all season (well, until tonight).
Anyways, if there's an upshot to all this, it's that they can't keep this up. Like, Matt Carpenter is not going to end the season with a 1.200 OPS...
ADD: Here's another way to make the comparison: the Red Sox had 15 players contribute 1 fWAR or more. The Yankees already have 16 barely halfway through the season.
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Post by patford on Jul 10, 2022 22:44:25 GMT -5
Am I the only person who is way over Boone's childish meltdowns which come despite the fact the Yankees have the cushiest strike zones in MLB. Umpires used to have a vendetta against Lester because he would give them the stink eye and yet Boone regularly behaves like an ass and gets away with it.
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Post by redsox43 on Jul 10, 2022 22:56:02 GMT -5
Would still love to see bell in this lineup I think Bell would help, but not sure if he's the fix all. I do think it's the most realistic move. *But* if you get Bell, you still have a outfield situation that is a complete mess. So first base is fixed. Franchy to the outfield. Refsnyder platooning with him in RF. You still have JBJ alone in CF. Duran can't play there. Kiké isn't any guarantee to comeback at this point with his bad hip. If he does comeback, he might play worse than JBJ on a platoon split. Or Refsnyder is platooning with JBJ in CF. Franchy is platooning with Christian Arroyo in RF. Add- Maybe Refsnyder just becomes the fix all CF for the rest of year, but you can't guarantee that.
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Post by benzinger on Jul 10, 2022 22:58:10 GMT -5
Brandon Drury(whom I thought was out of baseball) is having a nice season in CINCI. He can play all over, but can definitely play 1B. He seems like a reasonable target. He’s also a FA at season’s end.
I’d add Trey Mancini to this list for 1B, but I doubt the O’s would trade him to the Sox.
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Post by Underwater Johnson on Jul 10, 2022 22:58:32 GMT -5
That was so effing awesome. Was over at my folks for Sunday dinner (smoked a righteous pork loin), so was able to watch on ESPN, mostly with the sound off. That "national" broadcast team was slurping the MFYs so much I thought Buster Olney was going to have a wardrobe malfunction. And the alternative to that was the ESPN2 broadcast with a parade of former MFY players, current MFY broadcasters, and celebrity MFY fans. Are they going to do that for the Sox next weekend, with Damon and Affleck and Papi and Bill Burr and DOB? Jesus. It did make pounding them that much sweeeter -- and especially that amazing Stanton K by Hiro, with Ravech whinging like a schoolgirl about the umpire.
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 15,646
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Post by cdj on Jul 10, 2022 23:01:07 GMT -5
Pivetta is a reliever right? I mean he pitched worse against the Yankees than Big Daddy Winck and I was told he was a reliever This team is a good baseball team, they just split a series with an alleged juggernaut without an entire rotation and their MVP.
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 15,646
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Post by cdj on Jul 10, 2022 23:03:17 GMT -5
Thats get someone halfway decent to play first base before we cue the duck boats fellas. I saw our first basement go 430 to center tonight in a huge win, idk idk Sure he sucks at 1B but so, he’s the Franchyse
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Post by bosoxnation on Jul 10, 2022 23:08:00 GMT -5
Once Kiké is back i say we do Kiké/Duran CF. Rob/JBJ in RF and Franchy the full time 1st baseman.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 10, 2022 23:17:53 GMT -5
No, I did get your point. Steve Pearce was World Series MVP and pretty damn good during the season. If he wasn't the definition of journeyman, who is? I don't think the Sox had a lot of "great players" on the 2018 team. I mean, who are the HOFers? Probably Betts and Devers. Maybe Kimbrel? Well, Devers and Kimbrel didn't perform like HOFers that season. Great players for the Sox that year? Betts, JDM, arguably X, Sale for half a season and arguably Price. I mean, there were more HOFers on the 1970s Red Sox when they had Yaz, Fisk, Rice, Eckersley who replaced Fergie Jenkins and near HOFers in Evans, Tiant, and perhaps Lynn. The Sox won games with Velazquez and Johnson and Wright pitching well, with Kelly pitching like a god in the post-season. Brandon Phillips won them a game. I just think the 2018 Sox and 2022 Yankees are kind of cut from the same cloth, at least to this point. Hopefully the Yankees are at their worst in October, but until then, they're going to win 105 plus games. Anyways, at least for the last two games, they didn't look like a championship team, so at least there's that. The Sox got something good out of the split in the series. I just really disagree with you here. You're mentioning the Red Sox getting some good postseason performances from randos but that's not the comparison I'm making (obviously, since the Yankees haven't had a postseason yet). The Red Sox had a BUNCH of lousy players who played lousily, as you've pointed out, and it sort of baffles me to this day that they won 108 games. Here are some of the guys the Yankees have: -Nestor Cortes, formerly DFA'd, now in the conversation for the Cy Young -Jose Trevino, career high of 0.6 fWAR, currently at 2.4 and on the All-Star team -Matt Freaking Carpenter, who's OPS the last four seasons has gone .726, .639, .580, 1.251 1.306 now
-Marwin Gonzalez - Marwin Gonzalez! - has a 103 wRC+ and 0.7 WAR. Do you remember that guy when he was on *our* team? -Clay Holmes, a nothing of a prospect and a nobody in Pittsburgh, has an 0.46 ERA and 1.5 WAR in 39 innings Seriously, look at the Red Sox' stats from 2018. I'll give you Steve Pearce (though he only played in 50 games). Beyond that everyone who was really good for them was either a major star or a young blue chipper. In fact, a couple of their stars had negative WAR, in Hanley and Pedroia. You mentioned Johnson and Velazquez but those guys had ERAs in the 4s and worse peripherals; nothing like, say, Nestor Cortes, who has legitimately pitched great. The Red Sox ended 2018 with 13 players in negative WAR territory; the Yankees currently have 1.
And then there's the fact that the guys on the Yankees who aren't journeymen are almost all playing at the top of any reasonable expectation. Rizzo, on a downward trajectory since 2019, is somehow back at his peak level of offensive performance. Taillon and Severino, with I believe 3 Tommy Johns between them, have somehow been healthy and effective all season (well, until tonight).
Anyways, if there's an upshot to all this, it's that they can't keep this up. Like, Matt Carpenter is not going to end the season with a 1.200 OPS... ADD: Here's another way to make the comparison: the Red Sox had 15 players contribute 1 fWAR or more. The Yankees already have 16 barely halfway through the season.
Ok. I see your point. Then consider this....is it possible that the instruction/coaching at the major league level for the Yankees might just be superior to the Red Sox? I mean all of these stiffs are suddenly playing like all-stars. Maybe these guys were coached up. To me that seems to be the most simplest plausible explanation. I mean, Cashman saw something in Holmes and perhaps they "fixed" something in him that unlocked potential. Perhaps not that dissimilar to what Bloom saw in Schreiber, but it seems they did this with a lot of guys. Of course it seems a bunch of them came from Pittsburgh where perhaps the organization was really bad at coaching and developing their players and the Yankees saw diamonds in the rough in need of an organization that can develop talent at the major league level. Perhaps that's what's going on here. You say Carpenter. I say Refsnyder. So how much of this is random dumb luck versus some coaching go on, whether it's mechanical or statistical stuff like, eliminate your cutter Michael Wacha and suddenly you'll pitch a helluva lot better, who knows.
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Post by Underwater Johnson on Jul 10, 2022 23:22:07 GMT -5
Yeah they just swept the sad sack Angels. Trout and Ohtani going to waste. The Rendon contract might be one of the worst ever. Ugggh! The Angels are famous for handing out terrible FA contracts, in general. Rendon is up there, but Josh Hamilton, Pujols, Justin Upton and Gary Matthews Jr. are all in the running. I’d like to see an analysis of these deals actually. Matthews was short money compared to the others, but was almost completely useless for them. Rendon was easily one of the very best RHH in the game when he signed that deal. His bad injury luck since that signing is all that makes the signing look bad.
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Post by incandenza on Jul 10, 2022 23:30:31 GMT -5
I just really disagree with you here. You're mentioning the Red Sox getting some good postseason performances from randos but that's not the comparison I'm making (obviously, since the Yankees haven't had a postseason yet). The Red Sox had a BUNCH of lousy players who played lousily, as you've pointed out, and it sort of baffles me to this day that they won 108 games. Here are some of the guys the Yankees have: -Nestor Cortes, formerly DFA'd, now in the conversation for the Cy Young -Jose Trevino, career high of 0.6 fWAR, currently at 2.4 and on the All-Star team -Matt Freaking Carpenter, who's OPS the last four seasons has gone .726, .639, .580, 1.251 1.306 now
-Marwin Gonzalez - Marwin Gonzalez! - has a 103 wRC+ and 0.7 WAR. Do you remember that guy when he was on *our* team? -Clay Holmes, a nothing of a prospect and a nobody in Pittsburgh, has an 0.46 ERA and 1.5 WAR in 39 innings Seriously, look at the Red Sox' stats from 2018. I'll give you Steve Pearce (though he only played in 50 games). Beyond that everyone who was really good for them was either a major star or a young blue chipper. In fact, a couple of their stars had negative WAR, in Hanley and Pedroia. You mentioned Johnson and Velazquez but those guys had ERAs in the 4s and worse peripherals; nothing like, say, Nestor Cortes, who has legitimately pitched great. The Red Sox ended 2018 with 13 players in negative WAR territory; the Yankees currently have 1.
And then there's the fact that the guys on the Yankees who aren't journeymen are almost all playing at the top of any reasonable expectation. Rizzo, on a downward trajectory since 2019, is somehow back at his peak level of offensive performance. Taillon and Severino, with I believe 3 Tommy Johns between them, have somehow been healthy and effective all season (well, until tonight).
Anyways, if there's an upshot to all this, it's that they can't keep this up. Like, Matt Carpenter is not going to end the season with a 1.200 OPS... ADD: Here's another way to make the comparison: the Red Sox had 15 players contribute 1 fWAR or more. The Yankees already have 16 barely halfway through the season.
Ok. I see your point. Then consider this....is it possible that the instruction/coaching at the major league level for the Yankees might just be superior to the Red Sox? I mean all of these stiffs are suddenly playing like all-stars. Maybe these guys were coached up. To me that seems to be the most simplest plausible explanation. I mean, Cashman saw something in Holmes and perhaps they "fixed" something in him that unlocked potential. Perhaps not that dissimilar to what Bloom saw in Schreiber, but it seems they did this with a lot of guys. Of course it seems a bunch of them came from Pittsburgh where perhaps the organization was really bad at coaching and developing their players and the Yankees saw diamonds in the rough in need of an organization that can develop talent at the major league level. Perhaps that's what's going on here. You say Carpenter. I say Refsnyder. So how much of this is random dumb luck versus some coaching go on, whether it's mechanical or statistical stuff like, eliminate your cutter Michael Wacha and suddenly you'll pitch a helluva lot better, who knows. Yeah, the disturbing possibility is that they're just a very well-run organization. They have an uncanny ability to spot diamonds in the rough (which they'd already been doing for years, with guys like Urshela and Voit and LeMahieu). I'm sure a fair amount of it is dumb luck - they weren't nearly so lucky last season - but I think specifically in terms of the bullpen they've figured something out that no one else has. Every other team is just rolling dice out there, but the Yankees have been consistently getting lockdown relievers out of nowhere for a few years now.
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Post by Underwater Johnson on Jul 10, 2022 23:32:17 GMT -5
This is so stupid. When the Red Sox were great in 2018, it was because they had a whole bunch of great players. With these Yankees it's Jose Trevino, Nestor Cortes, Michael King, Matt Freaking Carpenter... Judge, Stanton, Cole, and a bunch of journeymen are gonna win 110 games. They'll all be forgotten when the Sox show them the door in the second round of the playoffs...
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Post by Underwater Johnson on Jul 10, 2022 23:39:48 GMT -5
No, I don't think we have to resign my least favorite player Christian Vazquez Ouch. But I agree. I'm ready for the Wong era, with a veteran Chaim special to pair with him.
I predict they'll offer Vazquez a one-year-plus-club-option, though, and I think he'll take it. I further predict that Wong will be the de facto starter by the 2023 All-star break.
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Post by Underwater Johnson on Jul 10, 2022 23:42:03 GMT -5
This is so stupid. When the Red Sox were great in 2018, it was because they had a whole bunch of great players. With these Yankees it's Jose Trevino, Nestor Cortes, Michael King, Matt Freaking Carpenter... Judge, Stanton, Cole, and a bunch of journeymen are gonna win 110 games. Agreed. Before the season, I joked that Cashman was assembling the 2017 all-star team. This was only reinforced with the addition of Carpenter. But this lineup is just full of patient professional hitters. They are all a pain in the ass. But the REAL secret is that their pitching has been otherworldly this year. Chapman has been the worst guy on the staff. He's been assembling 5-year-old all-star teams for 20 years now. How has that worked out, particularly the last dozen years?
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Jul 10, 2022 23:53:03 GMT -5
When was the last time the Sox came from behind (< 25% win chance) in successive games in a series?
June 5th and 6th of last year, to complete the sweep of the Yanks in the Bronx.
Last time they did it in B2B games period was in the following homestand, June 10 vs. Hou and June 11 vs. Tor.
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Post by Underwater Johnson on Jul 11, 2022 0:49:02 GMT -5
Dalbec with the worst AB of the season, just zero baseball IQ there. It's so obvious that the bigger the moment, the worse he gets.
I hope it's not too late to get some value back for him but at the very least, he has to take the Franchy route through Worcester.
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Post by congusgambler33 on Jul 11, 2022 1:44:05 GMT -5
Judge Judge Judge Judge Judge ...Oh yeah and a baseball game going on.
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Post by redsox43 on Jul 11, 2022 2:03:00 GMT -5
Thats get someone halfway decent to play first base before we cue the duck boats fellas. I saw our first basement go 430 to center tonight in a huge win, idk idk Sure he sucks at 1B but so, he’s the Franchyse He isn't good at first base. I think this is his last season playing first base defensively outside of a emergency situation once Casas is up. I at least hope it is. Good pinch hitter/maybe a DH in the future type?
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Jul 11, 2022 3:26:00 GMT -5
This is so stupid. When the Red Sox were great in 2018, it was because they had a whole bunch of great players. With these Yankees it's Jose Trevino, Nestor Cortes, Michael King, Matt Freaking Carpenter... Judge, Stanton, Cole, and a bunch of journeymen are gonna win 110 games. They'll all be forgotten when the Sox show them the door in the second round of the playoffs...
... which would be the first round for the Yankees. Which team will be under more pressure to advance?
----
On May 12th the Sox were 12 games behind the Yankees.
Since them the Yankees had gone 38-17 and the Sox have gone 36-19.
In that stretch, the Yankees have had 11 starts by their ace and the Sox have had 0.
As a result, the Yankees have needed 0 starts from their 6th starter and the Sox have needed 11 ... but he's missed his last 2 with an injury.
The Yankees 2 through 5 starers have missed 0 starts, while the Sox 2 through 5 have missed another 11.
The Yankees have used three AAA pitcher to start a total of 4 games, each designed to give the five starters an extra day of rest (none of them has missed a start all season). The Sox have needed to use four AAA pitchers for 13 starts, and it's not as if the they were trying one guy after another; in the just concluded series, all four guys were in the rotation.
That the Yankees have only gained 2 games on the Sox despite all that makes the quoted assertion quite credible.
There's a big potential irony upcoming, in that the likeliest matchups for the DS are Yankees (1 seed) versus Red Sox (4) and Astros (2) vs. Tampa Bay or Toronto (2nd w/c beating the 3 seed Central champ, plus no re-seading). The odds are actually against beating both the Sox and Astros in successive series. I think the Astros are actually the favorite to win the ALCS.
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Post by Guidas on Jul 11, 2022 6:38:13 GMT -5
No, I did get your point. Steve Pearce was World Series MVP and pretty damn good during the season. If he wasn't the definition of journeyman, who is? I don't think the Sox had a lot of "great players" on the 2018 team. I mean, who are the HOFers? Probably Betts and Devers. Maybe Kimbrel? Well, Devers and Kimbrel didn't perform like HOFers that season. Great players for the Sox that year? Betts, JDM, arguably X, Sale for half a season and arguably Price. I mean, there were more HOFers on the 1970s Red Sox when they had Yaz, Fisk, Rice, Eckersley who replaced Fergie Jenkins and near HOFers in Evans, Tiant, and perhaps Lynn. The Sox won games with Velazquez and Johnson and Wright pitching well, with Kelly pitching like a god in the post-season. Brandon Phillips won them a game. I just think the 2018 Sox and 2022 Yankees are kind of cut from the same cloth, at least to this point. Hopefully the Yankees are at their worst in October, but until then, they're going to win 105 plus games. Anyways, at least for the last two games, they didn't look like a championship team, so at least there's that. The Sox got something good out of the split in the series. I just really disagree with you here. You're mentioning the Red Sox getting some good postseason performances from randos but that's not the comparison I'm making (obviously, since the Yankees haven't had a postseason yet). The Red Sox had a BUNCH of lousy players who played lousily, as you've pointed out, and it sort of baffles me to this day that they won 108 games. Here are some of the guys the Yankees have: -Nestor Cortes, formerly DFA'd, now in the conversation for the Cy Young -Jose Trevino, career high of 0.6 fWAR, currently at 2.4 and on the All-Star team -Matt Freaking Carpenter, who's OPS the last four seasons has gone .726, .639, .580, 1.251 1.306 now
-Marwin Gonzalez - Marwin Gonzalez! - has a 103 wRC+ and 0.7 WAR. Do you remember that guy when he was on *our* team? -Clay Holmes, a nothing of a prospect and a nobody in Pittsburgh, has an 0.46 ERA and 1.5 WAR in 39 innings Seriously, look at the Red Sox' stats from 2018. I'll give you Steve Pearce (though he only played in 50 games). Beyond that everyone who was really good for them was either a major star or a young blue chipper. In fact, a couple of their stars had negative WAR, in Hanley and Pedroia. You mentioned Johnson and Velazquez but those guys had ERAs in the 4s and worse peripherals; nothing like, say, Nestor Cortes, who has legitimately pitched great. The Red Sox ended 2018 with 13 players in negative WAR territory; the Yankees currently have 1.
And then there's the fact that the guys on the Yankees who aren't journeymen are almost all playing at the top of any reasonable expectation. Rizzo, on a downward trajectory since 2019, is somehow back at his peak level of offensive performance. Taillon and Severino, with I believe 3 Tommy Johns between them, have somehow been healthy and effective all season (well, until tonight).
Anyways, if there's an upshot to all this, it's that they can't keep this up. Like, Matt Carpenter is not going to end the season with a 1.200 OPS... ADD: Here's another way to make the comparison: the Red Sox had 15 players contribute 1 fWAR or more. The Yankees already have 16 barely halfway through the season.
I smell secret sauce (that's not coming up in the PED screenings).
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Post by Underwater Johnson on Jul 11, 2022 11:10:36 GMT -5
Verdugo with a nice read to be able to score I rewound and played back the replay and for a second all three baserunners were on the third base line. Verdugo rounded third before JD reached the plate with Bogie halfway between them.
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