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Will the Red Sox completely clean house this offseason?
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Post by ematz1423 on Sept 20, 2022 17:27:59 GMT -5
Probably. I can't see Xander JD Eovaldi Hill or Wacha back next year. Devers will either sign and extension or traded. This will truly be Chaims team next year. Wouldn't rule out Chaim using Devers to rid the Sox of Sale either. itd be one thing to trade Devers but The sox payroll is fine, sales contract doesn't have that many years left. If Bloom attaches sale to a Devers deal and takes back a presumably worse trade package then Bloom is an idiot. I'm going to assume Bloom is not an idiot and that sale will not be attached to a Devers deal.
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Post by crossedsabres8 on Sept 20, 2022 18:04:03 GMT -5
The other side to "why not just keep Plawecki for 3 more weeks" is "why is cutting Plawecki 3 weeks before the season ends that harsh"
He was not coming back next year anyways, and wanting to see more of Wong and McGuire is perfectly reasonable. Cut him so he can find another team to finish the year with instead of doing nothing on the bench. I don't understand what the hoopla is all about.
To the point of the thread, there does seem to be a lot of chemistry in the clubhouse that has slowly been corroding away throughout this year. Some of these guys won a World Series together and most of them had a very fun ALCS run last year so I understand how they want to hold on to that and wanted the Front Office to keep the band together.
But on the other hand, Xander's comments at the trade deadline and the comments about Plawecki leaving are a little out of line. Player performance matters too, and someone who puts up negative value on the field not expect to keep their job for long.
Having a tight knit group is great but when that group is not good enough it's time to move on.
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Post by xdmo on Sept 20, 2022 18:09:37 GMT -5
Probably. I can't see Xander JD Eovaldi Hill or Wacha back next year. Devers will either sign and extension or traded. This will truly be Chaims team next year. Wouldn't rule out Chaim using Devers to rid the Sox of Sale either. Sale has 10/5 no trade clause rights.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Sept 20, 2022 18:40:47 GMT -5
Kind of unnecessary, really. I don't care if Plawecki is on the roster or not, but it seems to me that Bloom could have avoided ticking off a large segment of his team's clubhouse by DFAing Almonte who is as useless to the Sox and their future as Plawecki is. So it seems this stuff could have been headed off without having to make waves. I mean if it's Almonte or Plawecki does it really make much difference to keep Almonte over Plawecki? Almonte's tenure with the Sox is basically a brief cup of coffee. "Sorry, Abe, the guys like Kevin better. You gotta go." Among other things that seem bad about turning roster management into a popularity contest is that it would call into question some of the cultural/racial dynamics mentioned on the previous page. Not that I am assuming the team has issues with that, but if there are these sort of cultural factions on the club and the team was deferring to the most numerous and outspoken faction... well. That would be bad.
Like how would Xander and Rafi and the other Latin players feel about the team trading Vazquez but keeping the much worse Plawecki around just because certain guys liked him?
To me, you're picking between a well respected guy who has been part of the team for 3 years versus a guy who has been there for 3 minutes. Both equally are useless to the current team and future, so I would DFA Almonte, but believe me, Kevin Plawecki isn't a hill I'd choose to die on.
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Post by Guidas on Sept 20, 2022 18:41:16 GMT -5
But everyone NEEDS to see Yu Chang!!!! Because we don’t have enough info on a career minor leaguer/org guy and this absolute garbage time small sample will tell us so much!!! Would you prefer they go with a 28 man roster that contains zero backup infielders Well, 1) this was sarcasm to a degree, but brought on by someone saying, “they want to get a look at certain guys.” Like Chang is a future difference maker? He’s no different than 3 dozen other minor league free agents. 2) They do still have Kiké and Arroyo who are human Swiss Army knives, but if it’s a legit exercise in “wanting to get a look at certain guys” then why not Valdez, the great trade deadline prize? Or Rafaela, just to give him a taste of MLB pitching? If you want to add an org guy to the 40 man just to cover your ass and give him 3 weeks of MLB pay, then add Fitzi, who has a lot of positional flexibility and more occasional pop than some other journeyman.
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Post by julyanmorley on Sept 20, 2022 19:16:27 GMT -5
Yu Chang keeps getting claimed on waivers and has put up about 1 WAR in 2/3rds of a season's worth of PA the last three years. I'd be surprised if they keep him on the 40 all offseason, but he'd be one of the best minor league free agents on the market. Convincing him to stick around would be of actual value to the organization. Valdez and Rafaela are prospects playing every day in the minor leagues. Fitzgerald would have to get added to the 40 man and then DFA'ed later.
Not really seeing anything to be mad about here.
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Post by iakovos11 on Sept 20, 2022 19:25:39 GMT -5
uhhh, everyone? if you are being paid millions of dollars to perform, and you play like poop, you dont think people will be upset? Second bolded: thats fine with me, If these people call themselves "leaders" they are not acting like it that is fine. I can understand this. However, leadership can take many forms and 1 of them is speaking truth to power. Perhaps. But in this format it's the opposite of leadership. Calling out your bosses (if that's even what was done - just seems many here assume that's what Eovaldi did) in public is NOT leadership. It's being a whiner, a loser, someone willing to let the situation take over. When was the last time Bill Belichick, one of his coaches or a captain (hell, any player) called out a teammate (or coach) in public? They don't do that shite. Disagreements, concerns, whatever, are discussed behind closed doors. A true leader would go to Bloom (if he had serious issues with the Plawecki move or any other move) and have a conversation man to man.
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Post by Guidas on Sept 20, 2022 19:26:32 GMT -5
Yu Chang keeps getting claimed on waivers and has put up about 1 WAR in 2/3rds of a season's worth of PA the last three years. I'd be surprised if they keep him on the 40 all offseason, but he'd be one of the best minor league free agents on the market. Convincing him to stick around would be of actual value to the organization. Valdez and Rafaela are prospects playing every day in the minor leagues. Fitzgerald would have to get added to the 40 man and then DFA'ed later. Not really seeing anything to be mad about here.
I wasn’t really mad. Chang’s a known quantity.
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Post by greenmonster on Sept 20, 2022 19:28:29 GMT -5
The Golden Rule of Leadership...."Praise in Public, Reprimand in Private"
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Post by benzinger on Sept 20, 2022 20:04:08 GMT -5
Wasn't a fan of the Plawecki or Vasquez move. That being said, we can all debate till we are blue in the face about the importance of continuity and chemistry, but we also must acknowledge that losing teams rarely have either. It was a calculated risk by Bloom in both cases, we won't know until after the offseason if it was worth it. I wish Plow and Vasquez well, and I wish the guys on the roster who are making this as big of a deal as they are actually came to the post. They didn't, and so attrition was inevitable. Let's take a moment to celebrate each players contributions, both on the field and off (The Laundry Cart doesn't happen without plow) and then just move on. All I see is a lot of finger pointing with no appreciable personal responsibility. It's not like any of these guys will immediately become Oliver Twist anyways. They'll be ok, I can’t tell if the blurb about the laundry cart is satire, or not, so I’m guessing it’s serious? Plawecki was pretty useful for a couple years but he was HORRENDOUS this year. The players always want things to go one way while failing to acknowledge that it’s a performance-based business and Plawecki simply didn’t perform. I’m actually amazed they kept him as long as they did. Side note: I can’t believe they went over the tax by $4m with this awful team. Just mismanagement to the highest degree. Now they’ll get almost nothing when Xander leaves.
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Post by incandenza on Sept 20, 2022 20:10:54 GMT -5
that is fine. I can understand this. However, leadership can take many forms and 1 of them is speaking truth to power. Perhaps. But in this format it's the opposite of leadership. Calling out your bosses (if that's even what was done - just seems many here assume that's what Eovaldi did) in public is NOT leadership. It's being a whiner, a loser, someone willing to let the situation take over. When was the last time Bill Belichick, one of his coaches or a captain (hell, any player) called out a teammate (or coach) in public? They don't do that shite. Disagreements, concerns, whatever, are discussed behind closed doors. A true leader would go to Bloom (if he had serious issues with the Plawecki move or any other move) and have a conversation man to man. Yeah, there was actually nothing in the Eovaldi quote that was actually critical - he just praised Plawecki like a mensch. So this all just comes down to Hill being mildly crabby about it.
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Post by benzinger on Sept 20, 2022 20:55:15 GMT -5
Did anyone else feel awkward when reading that two white American guys were complaining about losing the leadership of three white American guys? With Xander (Aruban) unhappy about losing the leadership of Vazquez (Puerto Rican), which is far more understandable in my opinion, it makes me wonder if there's a strong white/latin or American/non-American split within the clubhouse. Or maybe that's fairly common throughout baseball? I guess it mainly hit me when reading about Renfroe who was only around for a year or Schwarber who wasn't even around for half of a season. Is this what you read in the sports section of Huffington Post? Give me a break.
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Post by patford on Sept 20, 2022 22:53:46 GMT -5
that is fine. I can understand this. However, leadership can take many forms and 1 of them is speaking truth to power. Perhaps. But in this format it's the opposite of leadership. Calling out your bosses (if that's even what was done - just seems many here assume that's what Eovaldi did) in public is NOT leadership. It's being a whiner, a loser, someone willing to let the situation take over. When was the last time Bill Belichick, one of his coaches or a captain (hell, any player) called out a teammate (or coach) in public? They don't do that shite. Disagreements, concerns, whatever, are discussed behind closed doors. A true leader would go to Bloom (if he had serious issues with the Plawecki move or any other move) and have a conversation man to man. 100% spot on. The past few months should put to rest forever any notion that Red Sox fans are smart and know baseball. A bigger collection of fools would be hard to find.
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Post by James Dunne on Sept 20, 2022 23:38:47 GMT -5
I've been sort of gathering my thoughts on this for a couple days, and here's where I stand right now.
-The move from Plawecki to German is a roster upgrade. That, in a vacuum, is good. -The timing of the Plawecki/German move was kinda silly. The time to make that move was a month ago - German doesn't look any more ready than he did then, and Plawecki didn't look any more like toast. I guess to some extent Wong has given them a little bit more confidence that they could move on, but he's not really someone who has a different profile than he did at the beginning of the month either. -If they wanted German on the roster (which, again, should've happened in August), there are other ways they could've gotten him there. -Releasing Plawecki with two weeks to go is kind of crummy to Plawecki. I know it's a business and I'm sure Plawecki will tell you that, but it isn't great. -Releasing Plawecki with other guys on the roster who also don't appear to be long-term or short-term solutions ruffled feathers in the clubhouse unnecessarily. -HOWEVER, given the way they've played this season, not ruffling feathers in this particular underachieving clubhouse shouldn't be a top priority. They should've treated Plawecki better just for the sake of doing right by him, not because Bloom should be fearful of losing confidence in the locker room. -A disconnect between management and the players is fine. Maybe it's even a positive on a team that underachieves. A disconnect between baseball ops and field management is a bigger problem, and I think that is starting to feel like a legitimate concern.
Going back to my initial point - when I say this move makes sense in a vacuum, I feel like that's a phrase I've used too many times since the start of the Bloom era. Too often, there are moves that are defensible on their own but sort of nonsensical as a team-building exercise. The Benintendi trade was fine, but where was the follow-up move? Same with the Renfroe trade last winter, a value-building deal that left a hole that wasn't filled? What was the strategy at this trading deadline, as they sold and bought at the same time while failing to get under the tax threshold? The time to make this move was a month ago. What's the benefit of doing it now? There's not enough time to get a look at German, there wasn't a roster crunch that necessitated dumping Plawecki, and the season is too far gone and too close to the end for it to make a difference in the standings.
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Post by danredhawk on Sept 20, 2022 23:39:50 GMT -5
Perhaps. But in this format it's the opposite of leadership. Calling out your bosses (if that's even what was done - just seems many here assume that's what Eovaldi did) in public is NOT leadership. It's being a whiner, a loser, someone willing to let the situation take over. When was the last time Bill Belichick, one of his coaches or a captain (hell, any player) called out a teammate (or coach) in public? They don't do that shite. Disagreements, concerns, whatever, are discussed behind closed doors. A true leader would go to Bloom (if he had serious issues with the Plawecki move or any other move) and have a conversation man to man. 100% spot on. The past few months should put to rest forever any notion that Red Sox fans are smart and know baseball. A bigger collection of fools would be hard to find. As a fan still assessing the Bloom era - I am awfully tired of watching the pro-Bloom at all costs crowd attempt to dunk on the anti-Bloom at all costs crowd, as if they've been any less foolish, disingenuous and dishonest about the conversation. Just quite a bit holier...
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Post by incandenza on Sept 21, 2022 9:04:59 GMT -5
Going back to my initial point - when I say this move makes sense in a vacuum, I feel like that's a phrase I've used too many times since the start of the Bloom era. Too often, there are moves that are defensible on their own but sort of nonsensical as a team-building exercise. The Benintendi trade was fine, but where was the follow-up move? Same with the Renfroe trade last winter, a value-building deal that left a hole that wasn't filled? What was the strategy at this trading deadline, as they sold and bought at the same time while failing to get under the tax threshold? The time to make this move was a month ago. What's the benefit of doing it now? There's not enough time to get a look at German, there wasn't a roster crunch that necessitated dumping Plawecki, and the season is too far gone and too close to the end for it to make a difference in the standings. I think this is an interesting point and something worth looking out for going forward. I'm not sure it's that strong of a pattern, though.
-The criticism totally applies to the Renfroe trade, which I think most everyone agrees with. -The follow-up move to the Benintendi trade was getting Renfroe so I don't see the problem there. -I thought the trade deadline approach made a lot of sense, for reasons I won't repeat yet again. And I think it's looking even better in retrospect - they actually upgraded at catcher. (IMO, Bloom has had three great trade deadlines in a row.)
-A month ago the Red Sox still had 7% playoff odds. Not great! But not quite throw-in-the-towel-and-see-what-the-kids-can-do bad. If you want to say they should have made the move two weeks ago I wouldn't argue. But by the same taken I'm not going to lose sleep over that difference in timing.
So it's something to watch. But it mostly comes down to the sort of inexplicable handling of RF this year. Hopefully that was a one-off screw-up. If something like that happens again this offseason I'll be worried.
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Post by manfred on Sept 21, 2022 9:35:24 GMT -5
To the split of FO and field management, I saw a discussion of GMs around the deadline that suggest Bloom was not a great communicator with the clubhouse (I guess he wasn’t traveling with the team to talk about moves etc). Anyway, who knows, but *if* the FO makes moves and leaves Cora to smooth the ruffled feathers, that definitely puts Cora in a terrible position.
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Post by julyanmorley on Sept 21, 2022 9:54:53 GMT -5
Eovaldi had some more things to say yesterday: “I love being here. It’s the front office, it’s the coaching staff, the training staff. Here, they all want to win. When you’re a player, that’s what you want to be a part of is an organization that’s going to do whatever it takes to win and put the best team out there to win ballgames.” “The Red Sox have always been that organization that, they’re going to do whatever it takes to be competing team,” Eovaldi said. “Not only competing, but (they) have that opportunity to win a World Series. I’ve felt that way every year, that we’ve had guys here (who could win). It’s never like we’re throwing in the towel and giving up. We may be giving other guys looks now, but those guys are extremely capable of helping a club win.”
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Post by rico6 on Sept 21, 2022 10:34:40 GMT -5
Going back to my initial point - when I say this move makes sense in a vacuum, I feel like that's a phrase I've used too many times since the start of the Bloom era. Too often, there are moves that are defensible on their own but sort of nonsensical as a team-building exercise. The Benintendi trade was fine, but where was the follow-up move? Same with the Renfroe trade last winter, a value-building deal that left a hole that wasn't filled? What was the strategy at this trading deadline, as they sold and bought at the same time while failing to get under the tax threshold? The time to make this move was a month ago. What's the benefit of doing it now? There's not enough time to get a look at German, there wasn't a roster crunch that necessitated dumping Plawecki, and the season is too far gone and too close to the end for it to make a difference in the standings. I think this is an interesting point and something worth looking out for going forward. I'm not sure it's that strong of a pattern, though.
-The criticism totally applies to the Renfroe trade, which I think most everyone agrees with. -The follow-up move to the Benintendi trade was getting Renfroe so I don't see the problem there. -I thought the trade deadline approach made a lot of sense, for reasons I won't repeat yet again. And I think it's looking even better in retrospect - they actually upgraded at catcher. (IMO, Bloom has had three great trade deadlines in a row.)
-A month ago the Red Sox still had 7% playoff odds. Not great! But not quite throw-in-the-towel-and-see-what-the-kids-can-do bad. If you want to say they should have made the move two weeks ago I wouldn't argue. But by the same taken I'm not going to lose sleep over that difference in timing.
So it's something to watch. But it mostly comes down to the sort of inexplicable handling of RF this year. Hopefully that was a one-off screw-up. If something like that happens again this offseason I'll be worried.
I still think there had to be another shoe to drop after trading Renfroe and replacing him with JBJ. Was there a part of that plan that fell apart after coming back from the lockout? If not, it was a terrible plan. Yes, you picked up two prospects that can create excitement in the minors and added depth but most likely they will never see the majors with the Sox. Hopefully, Bloom comes away this offseason with some solid moves to strengthen this team.
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 15,659
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Post by cdj on Sept 21, 2022 10:34:58 GMT -5
Honestly I don’t even think releasing Plawecki was a crappy thing to do to him- he gets paid the same amount of money and now he gets to go audition for a team where he may actually have a 2023 spot
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Post by julyanmorley on Sept 21, 2022 10:42:25 GMT -5
I still think there had to be another shoe to drop after trading Renfroe and replacing him with JBJ. Was there a part of that plan that fell apart after coming back from the lockout? If not, it was a terrible plan. Yes, you picked up two prospects that can create excitement in the minors and added depth but most likely they will never see the majors with the Sox. Hopefully, Bloom comes away this offseason with some solid moves to strengthen this team. Chaim has said they expected to make another move in the OF after the JBJ trade and he regrets that it didn't happen. We know they were talking to Pham and it's still a little strange that deal didn't happen. They were in on AJ Pollack, but the Dodgers ended up getting Craig Kimbrel for him.
Ironically, they did make the single best RH OF move that any team could have made - sign Rob Refsnyder. But then they gave the 4th OF job to Christian Arroyo out of spring training (in part to find the flexibility to keep Travis Shaw on the team), which was a serious error that deserves more scorn.
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Post by Guidas on Sept 21, 2022 11:15:12 GMT -5
Eovaldi had some more things to say yesterday: “I love being here. It’s the front office, it’s the coaching staff, the training staff. Here, they all want to win. When you’re a player, that’s what you want to be a part of is an organization that’s going to do whatever it takes to win and put the best team out there to win ballgames.” “The Red Sox have always been that organization that, they’re going to do whatever it takes to be competing team,” Eovaldi said. “Not only competing, but (they) have that opportunity to win a World Series. I’ve felt that way every year, that we’ve had guys here (who could win). It’s never like we’re throwing in the towel and giving up. We may be giving other guys looks now, but those guys are extremely capable of helping a club win.” Translation: "My agent called me, and..."
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Post by incandenza on Sept 21, 2022 11:26:50 GMT -5
I still think there had to be another shoe to drop after trading Renfroe and replacing him with JBJ. Was there a part of that plan that fell apart after coming back from the lockout? If not, it was a terrible plan. Yes, you picked up two prospects that can create excitement in the minors and added depth but most likely they will never see the majors with the Sox. Hopefully, Bloom comes away this offseason with some solid moves to strengthen this team. Chaim has said they expected to make another move in the OF after the JBJ trade and he regrets that it didn't happen. We know they were talking to Pham and it's still a little strange that deal didn't happen. They were in on AJ Pollack, but the Dodgers ended up getting Craig Kimbrel for him.
Ironically, they did make the single best RH OF move that any team could have made - sign Rob Refsnyder. But then they gave the 4th OF job to Christian Arroyo out of spring training (in part to find the flexibility to keep Travis Shaw on the team), which was a serious error that deserves more scorn.
Ugh, what an ugly chain of decisions. And yet still this all could have turned out decently if Kiké had been healthy - a JBJ/Refsnyder platoon in RF and Kiké in CF would have been totally viable. Instead we got way more Duran and more JBJ than was ideal.
That's not exculpatory, though; you can never assume everyone's going to stay healthy.
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Post by ematz1423 on Sept 21, 2022 11:34:03 GMT -5
Eovaldi had some more things to say yesterday: “I love being here. It’s the front office, it’s the coaching staff, the training staff. Here, they all want to win. When you’re a player, that’s what you want to be a part of is an organization that’s going to do whatever it takes to win and put the best team out there to win ballgames.” “The Red Sox have always been that organization that, they’re going to do whatever it takes to be competing team,” Eovaldi said. “Not only competing, but (they) have that opportunity to win a World Series. I’ve felt that way every year, that we’ve had guys here (who could win). It’s never like we’re throwing in the towel and giving up. We may be giving other guys looks now, but those guys are extremely capable of helping a club win.” Translation: "My agent called me, and..." Or perhaps he has just genuinely enjoyed his time in Boston? He did win a WS here. If he genuinely does believe what he said in this interview, the question becomes would he perhaps give the Sox a home team discount? If so would the Red Sox even be interested? I am sure they would be at some price/year point but what is that point and is it close enough to get a deal done? Personally I kind of think it best for the Sox to move on outside of some big time home team discount for a max of 2 seasons.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Sept 21, 2022 16:09:01 GMT -5
that is fine. I can understand this. However, leadership can take many forms and 1 of them is speaking truth to power. Perhaps. But in this format it's the opposite of leadership. Calling out your bosses (if that's even what was done - just seems many here assume that's what Eovaldi did) in public is NOT leadership. It's being a whiner, a loser, someone willing to let the situation take over. When was the last time Bill Belichick, one of his coaches or a captain (hell, any player) called out a teammate (or coach) in public? They don't do that shite. Disagreements, concerns, whatever, are discussed behind closed doors. A true leader would go to Bloom (if he had serious issues with the Plawecki move or any other move) and have a conversation man to man. We can agree that it is the best method is behind closed doors, but we don't even know if that is possible. Also, that isn't the way it is in any major sports league anymore and it appears to annoy some fans, but I don't have a problem with it. I also don't think it can be summarized at all as you wrote in the bolded text. As far as Belichick, fair minded people are slowly realizing that his success was probably more rooted in his synergetic relationship with Brady more than anything else. Heck,, some people might actually say his success was because of Brady.
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