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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Nov 29, 2022 19:30:43 GMT -5
OTOH, he had his best seasons and won his WS MVP with the D-Backs. Also, I think your point about franchises might be an argument in the other direction - I’m sure HOF would love to put up plaques for under-represented clubs Maybe that's a situation where the Hall has the player break a tie, so to speak and if so he'd go in as a Dback. Doesn't matter much to me. His Red Sox accomplishments are still his Red Sox accomplishments and despite everything won't be forgotten. The fan base would be furious if Schilling wore a Red Sox cap. Schilling, in turn, would probably be pissed if he went in as a Sox. He'd probably go in as a Philly or DBack. The player should be in already.
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Post by costpet on Nov 29, 2022 19:46:58 GMT -5
I think there’s a good chance that nobody gets in this year.
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 30, 2022 12:54:17 GMT -5
Maybe that's a situation where the Hall has the player break a tie, so to speak and if so he'd go in as a Dback. Doesn't matter much to me. His Red Sox accomplishments are still his Red Sox accomplishments and despite everything won't be forgotten. The fan base would be furious if Schilling wore a Red Sox cap. Schilling, in turn, would probably be pissed if he went in as a Sox. He'd probably go in as a Philly or DBack. The player should be in already. Why would the Sox fanbase be furious if Schilling was elected and depicted with a Sox cap? His most indelible moment occurred with the Sox and he has 2 rings with them. I don't hate the bloody Sock game just because I don't care for Schilling's nonbaseball opinions. Schilling was a great Red Sox and I'd be quite fine with Curt Schilling the HOF caliber pitcher in a Sox cap. I dont see why the fanbase would be outraged.
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Post by incandenza on Nov 30, 2022 13:03:17 GMT -5
Well I'm just glad the Era Committee picked up the baton on Schilling and the steroids guys. How awful it would have been to go even one year without those controversies to discuss!
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manfred
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Post by manfred on Nov 30, 2022 13:12:15 GMT -5
I hate Schilling with the heat of a million suns, but I am not really clear on why he isn’t in the HOF. It seems like no one makes a statistical case, and I’m not aware of anything like cheating. Is it just that he’s a jerk? I don’t like that. Much as it pains me even to have a *principle* that works in his favor.
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Post by incandenza on Nov 30, 2022 13:20:20 GMT -5
I hate Schilling with the heat of a million suns, but I am not really clear on why he isn’t in the HOF. It seems like no one makes a statistical case, and I’m not aware of anything like cheating. Is it just that he’s a jerk? I don’t like that. Much as it pains me even to have a *principle* that works in his favor. It probably has something to do with the fact that the Hall of Fame is voted on by journalists and Schilling famously implied that journalists ought to be murdered. He also threw a snit and explicitly asked them not to vote for him.
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Nov 30, 2022 13:27:24 GMT -5
The fan base would be furious if Schilling wore a Red Sox cap. Schilling, in turn, would probably be pissed if he went in as a Sox. He'd probably go in as a Philly or DBack. The player should be in already. Why would the Sox fanbase be furious if Schilling was elected and depicted with a Sox cap? His most indelible moment occurred with the Sox and he has 2 rings with them. I don't hate the bloody Sock game just because I don't care for Schilling's nonbaseball opinions. Schilling was a great Red Sox and I'd be quite fine with Curt Schilling the HOF caliber pitcher in a Sox cap. I dont see why the fanbase would be outraged. I'd be fine with him in as a Sox, but I would believe the majority would say otherwise given his post baseball career. Basically, it's politics over everything. I'm not a fan of his views, but he's a hall of famer.
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Post by freddysthefuture2003 on Nov 30, 2022 13:29:01 GMT -5
He also took a crap ton of taxpayer funds from Rhode Island and flamed out on delivering what was promised
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Post by Guidas on Dec 1, 2022 15:57:42 GMT -5
I hate Schilling with the heat of a million suns, but I am not really clear on why he isn’t in the HOF. It seems like no one makes a statistical case, and I’m not aware of anything like cheating. Is it just that he’s a jerk? I don’t like that. Much as it pains me even to have a *principle* that works in his favor. It probably has something to do with the fact that the Hall of Fame is voted on by journalists and Schilling famously implied that journalists ought to be murdered. He also threw a snit and explicitly asked them not to vote for him. Also, journalists are perfect human beings so their assessment of a players' qualifications and "character" are definitive when it comes to selection to the hall of fame. They all seem to magically know who did and did not use PEDs. Some of the guys they point to as clean have all the earmarks of PED use. And others, who never tested positive, are excluded because, "Hey, we can tell!" Can we just turn this process over to an algorithm based on performance as a player? These arbitrary assessment components by people who aren't always great judges of actual performance or on field talent, right down to "does he like journalists?" and "was he a great interview?" for some guys and not others, just delegitimizes the whole thing.
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Post by Guidas on Dec 1, 2022 16:01:29 GMT -5
He also took a crap ton of taxpayer funds from Rhode Island and flamed out on delivering what was promised Rhode Island gave him the money. And every entrepreneur flames out at one time or another and loses big bucks for his/her investors. That's the risk in the system. On the field, I am glad he was on the Red Sox and he delivered when it counted. Big game pitcher. Yes, he lost money in business deals, had a big mouth and the maturity of a 16-year-old, but if those were criteria for keeping guys out of the hall, they'd have to flush a significant percentage of the current occupants.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 1, 2022 16:49:18 GMT -5
The reason is the character clause. Agree or disagree with how it's interpreted, but it's there in the voting charge, that voters are to include a player's character in their voting, and there's no real further guidance that I'm aware of.
Imperfect system, but I get why.
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TearsIn04
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Post by TearsIn04 on Dec 1, 2022 17:32:43 GMT -5
I hate Schilling with the heat of a million suns, but I am not really clear on why he isn’t in the HOF. It seems like no one makes a statistical case, and I’m not aware of anything like cheating. Is it just that he’s a jerk? I don’t like that. Much as it pains me even to have a *principle* that works in his favor. I haven't heard anyone make a vehement statistical case against him, but I think some of the old-school writers don't understand the statistical case that is overwhelmingly in his favor. They look at the 216 W's and say "Eh." They don't have a clue how elite 80-WAR is. But the bigger reason that he's not in is clearly his character. I'm not big on voters invoking the character clause, but he has displayed such incredible levels of bigotry, embrace of violence, hatred for the country and general douchery that I wouldn't be able to check his name.
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Post by incandenza on Dec 1, 2022 17:45:55 GMT -5
I hate Schilling with the heat of a million suns, but I am not really clear on why he isn’t in the HOF. It seems like no one makes a statistical case, and I’m not aware of anything like cheating. Is it just that he’s a jerk? I don’t like that. Much as it pains me even to have a *principle* that works in his favor. I haven't heard anyone make a vehement statistical case against him, but I think some of the old-school writers don't understand the statistical case that is overwhelmingly in his favor. They look at the 216 W's and say "Eh." They don't have a clue how elite 80-WAR is. But the bigger reason that he's not in is clearly his character. I'm not big on voters invoking the character clause, but he has displayed such incredible levels of bigotry, embrace of violence, hatred for the country and general douchery that I wouldn't be able to check his name. I do think the old school writers' lack of appreciation for him kept him out in the first several years he was on the ballot, and while his on-the-field case was catching on, he was simultaneously self-immolating in public in multiple ways.
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TearsIn04
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Post by TearsIn04 on Dec 1, 2022 17:53:13 GMT -5
It probably has something to do with the fact that the Hall of Fame is voted on by journalists and Schilling famously implied that journalists ought to be murdered. He also threw a snit and explicitly asked them not to vote for him. Also, journalists are perfect human beings so their assessment of a players' qualifications and "character" are definitive when it comes to selection to the hall of fame. They all seem to magically know who did and did not use PEDs. Some of the guys they point to as clean have all the earmarks of PED use. And others, who never tested positive, are excluded because, "Hey, we can tell!" Can we just turn this process over to an algorithm based on performance as a player? These arbitrary assessment components by people who aren't always great judges of actual performance or on field talent, right down to "does he like journalists?" and "was he a great interview?" for some guys and not others, just delegitimizes the whole thing. Steve Carlton, Eddie Murray, Jim Rice. Each of these guys was contemptuous of the media and the writers voted each of them in. That has nothing to do with why Schilling isn't in. And if the writers gave points to guys who "gave great interviews," as you suggest, he'd be in on the first ballot. He never saw a notebook or mic that he didn't like and always had something, um, interesting to say. It's legitimate to count his call for lynching journalists as a reason to oppose him on the basis of character, not because they're journalists but because calling for the lynching of anyone based on their profession is morally repugnant. I'd feel as strongly about it if he endorsed lynching plumbers, engineers or ditch diggers. As far as an algorithm goes, who's going to write the algorithm? Some people will scream that the algorithm sets too high a standard because how can so and so not be chosen. Others will make the opposite argument. The algorithm would be written based on subjective opinions and judgments. So you're back to square one.
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Post by incandenza on Dec 1, 2022 18:00:06 GMT -5
I wonder what algorithmic value you'd assign to Big Papi's "This is our ****** City" speech. Or Kirk Gibson's World Series homer. Or Schilling's bloody sock. Or Pedro Martinez' sheer joyfulness...
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TearsIn04
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Post by TearsIn04 on Dec 1, 2022 18:17:38 GMT -5
I wonder what algorithmic value you'd assign to Big Papi's "This is our ****** City" speech. Or Kirk Gibson's World Series homer. Or Schilling's bloody sock. Or Pedro Martinez' sheer joyfulness... I would purposely write an algorithm that would assign tremendous value to Papi's speech and Pedro's persona. It would assign some value to Kirk's HR and none to Schilling's bloody sock. That's because I love Papi and Pedro, respect Kirk and despise Schilling. So yes, I agree with you that the algorithm would reflect the biases, prejudices and agendas of the people designing it. It's not the solution.
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Post by Guidas on Dec 1, 2022 19:27:40 GMT -5
The reason is the character clause. Agree or disagree with how it's interpreted, but it's there in the voting charge, that voters are to include a player's character in their voting, and there's no real further guidance that I'm aware of. Imperfect system, but I get why. Great - let's go through all current members of the HOF and apply the character clause.
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Post by Guidas on Dec 1, 2022 19:59:52 GMT -5
I wonder what algorithmic value you'd assign to Big Papi's "This is our ****** City" speech. Or Kirk Gibson's World Series homer. Or Schilling's bloody sock. Or Pedro Martinez' sheer joyfulness... Javy Baez is pretty joyful but I wouldn't suggest he goes into the HOF. Ditto Sean Casey. For an algorithm, it could be as easy as assigning an fWAR or bWAR for each position creating an acceptable threshold, or it could be an even more multivariable weighting for post-season performance and including a calculation for players who were in the league at least X amount of years (10? 12) and who were on a HOF pace but whose career was cut short because of injuries, illness, war, etc. Guys who failed PED tests while playing (ARod, Pettitte, Manny, etc.) are out but could be addressed by a veteran's committee. What's acceptable? That's the debate, but certainly lower for guys who were primarily DHs, closers/relievers and catchers. So, say a WAR standard for outfielders is 60.0 fWAR or better, but the WAR for DHs is 50 (and I am using thresholds based on current HOF players. Then Dwight Evans (65.1 fWAR) and Tim Raines (66.4 fWAR) are in automatically 5 years after retirement (whereas Jim Rice would not have been selected). Whereas closers/relievers would be, say, 30 fWAR. That puts Gossage in (barely), but Hoffman wouldn't have made it. Anyway, that's one approach. I just believe the current process is subject to far too much bias. And while there are some great baseball writers out there, the BBWA has its share of hacks. I mean, if they really want to keep it subjective but informed, then give the votes to every player who was in the league for at least 8 or 10 years. They would be far better judges of talent than the writers. And I say this as someone who worked as a journalist for more than 7 years (NY Times, Hfd Courant, Media News Group. The people from that profession are by and large very clique-ish and many have among the thinnest skins on the planet.
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Post by James Dunne on Dec 1, 2022 20:29:15 GMT -5
The reason is the character clause. Agree or disagree with how it's interpreted, but it's there in the voting charge, that voters are to include a player's character in their voting, and there's no real further guidance that I'm aware of. Imperfect system, but I get why. Great - let's go through all current members of the HOF and apply the character clause. They did. They all got in. One semi-ironic thing is that, when he played, the media liked Schilling MUCH more than his fellow players did. They polled the players a couple years back about Hall of Fame stuff, and Schilling was the only one who did worse than his percentage on the writers' ballot. Players accused him at the time of putting on an act for the camera, the way he'd be the first one ready for an interview, the way he'd write in his notebook to chart pitches directly in front of the camera, that sort of thing. Then he decided the media was his enemy too! Oh well.
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Post by Guidas on Dec 2, 2022 8:09:05 GMT -5
Great - let's go through all current members of the HOF and apply the character clause. They did. They all got in. One semi-ironic thing is that, when he played, the media liked Schilling MUCH more than his fellow players did. They polled the players a couple years back about Hall of Fame stuff, and Schilling was the only one who did worse than his percentage on the writers' ballot. Players accused him at the time of putting on an act for the camera, the way he'd be the first one ready for an interview, the way he'd write in his notebook to chart pitches directly in front of the camera, that sort of thing. Then he decided the media was his enemy too! Oh well. See Cobb, Ty. Landis, Kennisaw Mountain Yawky, Tom We could go much, much deeper.
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Post by jmei on Dec 2, 2022 22:51:57 GMT -5
Knock off the politics. You’ve been warned about this before.
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Post by Jimmy on Dec 3, 2022 1:04:48 GMT -5
ARod Ramirez
Bonus: Schilling & Pete Rose
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Post by cdj on Dec 3, 2022 2:00:21 GMT -5
ARod and Manny need to be in as far as I’m concerned. PED’s have existed since the dawn of time and what’s made illegal is arbitrary. The disdain for them is the product on the war on drugs, which has proven to be ridiculous
I’m not even an ARod guy but how are we going to pretend he’s not deserving???
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 3, 2022 8:44:56 GMT -5
ARod and Manny need to be in as far as I’m concerned. PED’s have existed since the dawn of time and what’s made illegal is arbitrary. The disdain for them is the product on the war on drugs, which has proven to be ridiculous I’m not even an ARod guy but how are we going to pretend he’s not deserving??? There's a second line drawn in the sand for A-Rod and Manny because they did their PEDs when there were actually rules in place for them unlike Bonds and Clemens and the others. In fact Manny got popped twice after the rules went into effect. Everybody draws their own line. Right now my line allows for Schilling to be in despite his statements but my line won't allow for Vizquel for the things he has done. My line allows for Helton, but that guy could have killed somebody with his drunk driving. He didn't so I think I could vote him in, but if he had....I don't think I could. And that would be accidental/preventable death. I couldn't vote for somebody who murders somebody else even if he was an all-time GOAT. And you can say....well that doesn't change what Helton actually did, regardless of the outcome.....and you'd have a point. And you can say, well make it easy....stick to the field of play. OK. Pete Rose. We know that he bet on baseball. Big no-no. I don't think he threw games, though. And we hear the allegations of his off-field behavior, but stick to the field....ok, there are allegations that he corked his bat. Sosa did the same thing and has the steroid rap hanging above his head. Bonds and Clemens are HOFers, before they ever touched anything. Beltran had a HOF caliber career before that final season where he was a big part of the Astros cheating scandal. Does the fact that they did at all mean they shouldn't get in? Or is the likelihood of these things insignificant because it happened after they accumulated their career HOFer status? Then you have guys like Landis who refused integration, Cap Anson, who was a big reason why integration was needed in the first place, and Speaker, who I believe was in the KKK....they're all in. Of course it was a lso a different era among the electors as to what was acceptable in their worldviews at that point in time. It's so damn confusing. I'd love to stick to the field, but even that field is tainted, too with PEDs, corked bats, cheating to gain advantage - anybody notice how Gaylord Perry's spitball is kind of brushed off because the pitcher was so damn likable? There is just no cut and dry thing. I wind up with more questions than I do answers and that's even before you figure out if you're a small HOF and larger HOF type of guy where if you have to debate as to whether the player was a HOFer, then he isn't and that the HOF is only for uper echelon all-time greats or if it's to honor the greatest players and you don't want to see other really great players get forgotten in time because they're not up in the Babe Ruth circle of greatness and then where do you draw the line with their performances?
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Post by manfred on Dec 3, 2022 9:48:17 GMT -5
ARod and Manny need to be in as far as I’m concerned. PED’s have existed since the dawn of time and what’s made illegal is arbitrary. The disdain for them is the product on the war on drugs, which has proven to be ridiculous I’m not even an ARod guy but how are we going to pretend he’s not deserving??? There's a second line drawn in the sand for A-Rod and Manny because they did their PEDs when there were actually rules in place for them unlike Bonds and Clemens and the others. In fact Manny got popped twice after the rules went into effect. Everybody draws their own line. Right now my line allows for Schilling to be in despite his statements but my line won't allow for Vizquel for the things he has done. My line allows for Helton, but that guy could have killed somebody with his drunk driving. He didn't so I think I could vote him in, but if he had....I don't think I could. And that would be accidental/preventable death. I couldn't vote for somebody who murders somebody else even if he was an all-time GOAT. And you can say....well that doesn't change what Helton actually did, regardless of the outcome.....and you'd have a point. And you can say, well make it easy....stick to the field of play. OK. Pete Rose. We know that he bet on baseball. Big no-no. I don't think he threw games, though. And we hear the allegations of his off-field behavior, but stick to the field....ok, there are allegations that he corked his bat. Sosa did the same thing and has the steroid rap hanging above his head. Bonds and Clemens are HOFers, before they ever touched anything. Beltran had a HOF caliber career before that final season where he was a big part of the Astros cheating scandal. Does the fact that they did at all mean they shouldn't get in? Or is the likelihood of these things insignificant because it happened after they accumulated their career HOFer status? Then you have guys like Landis who refused integration, Cap Anson, who was a big reason why integration was needed in the first place, and Speaker, who I believe was in the KKK....they're all in. Of course it was a lso a different era among the electors as to what was acceptable in their worldviews at that point in time. It's so damn confusing. I'd love to stick to the field, but even that field is tainted, too with PEDs, corked bats, cheating to gain advantage - anybody notice how Gaylord Perry's spitball is kind of brushed off because the pitcher was so damn likable? There is just no cut and dry thing. I wind up with more questions than I do answers and that's even before you figure out if you're a small HOF and larger HOF type of guy where if you have to debate as to whether the player was a HOFer, then he isn't and that the HOF is only for uper echelon all-time greats or if it's to honor the greatest players and you don't want to see other really great players get forgotten in time because they're not up in the Babe Ruth circle of greatness and then where do you draw the line with their performances? I start by being a small-Hall guy. It helps. Therefore before I even consider Visquel’s character, I’m already wondering… is he really in? I mean, I guess he is a kinda poor-man’s Ozzie Smith? In 24 years, his OPS+ was over 100 twice. So you have a great defensive SS who accumulated a good hit total by playing forever. His career WAR is almost exactly the 7-year peak for SS in the Hall. He’s out of my small-Hall. Never reaches character. I wouldn’t vote for Helton either. By age 30, he’s Mark Grace playing at altitude. He had a huge prime — in Colorado — and fell off fast. Not an all-timer. This means the character issue is left for the big boys.
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