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Rest of the Offseason
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 9, 2022 16:19:45 GMT -5
At this point, I am skeptical that Chaim has the ability to trade Devers even if offered a package that Devers' own mom thinks is way too much. Come on, thats excessive, If you think he is that incompetent, I would like to see you be a GM of a professional baseball team. (and your fantasy team does not count) Defensive, aren't you? Are you telling me he is above reproach and that based on his overall track record or what happened recently he can't be critiqued? Jeez, I guess we can only talk about Bloom if we throw verbal bouquets at him. It is a fair question about his talent judgment. If you can't see that you need to take your head out of the sand.
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Post by ematz1423 on Dec 9, 2022 16:20:01 GMT -5
More than the measly draft pick he'll fetch if they let him leave after next season. Sure, but presumably the difference is about what we'd have to give up to get somebody else to play third base. Sign Brandon Drury or something, I don't know but I do know if they lose Devers for a crummy draft pick it'd just be another crushing blow to my fandom personally. Which I guess at the same end trade Devers for 2-3 prospects, probably could only fetch maybe 1 top 100 type of guy so what's really the difference I guess. Guess I should just get used to losing home grown talent and maybe at some point I won't care so much so long as they start putting a winning team on the field more consistently.
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Post by grandsalami on Dec 9, 2022 16:21:09 GMT -5
Come on, thats excessive, If you think he is that incompetent, I would like to see you be a GM of a professional baseball team. (and your fantasy team does not count) Defensive, aren't you? Are you telling me he is above reproach and that based on his overall track record or what happened recently he can't be critiqued? Jeez, I guess we can only talk about Bloom if we throw verbal bouquets at him. It is a fair question about his talent judgment. If you can't see that you need to take your head out of the sand. I never said that they said "to trade Devers even if offered a package that Devers' own mom thinks is way too much."
You cant see how something like that can be interpreted as calling Bloom an imbecile? You are pretty much saying If Bloom was offered trout or ohtani he is too stupid to accept it
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Post by julyanmorley on Dec 9, 2022 16:21:35 GMT -5
At this point, I am skeptical that Chaim has the ability to trade Devers even if offered a package that Devers' own mom thinks is way too much. Come on, thats excessive, If you think he is that incompetent, I would like to see you be a GM of a professional baseball team. (and your fantasy team does not count) I mean that the option is not available to him.
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Post by 0ap0 on Dec 9, 2022 16:30:15 GMT -5
Which I guess at the same end trade Devers for 2-3 prospects, probably could only fetch maybe 1 top 100 type of guy so what's really the difference I guess. Yeah, that was most of my point. We saw this with Mookie -- true, you could trade him a year before the end of his contract, but what you get back isn't especially compelling. Personally, in that case, I'd rather have had another year of Mookie. I feel like the more positive point of view is that it's not that we're losing Devers for a 4th round pick, we just got to the end of his contract. We stop paying him and he stops playing for us. Or conceivably we re-sign him to a new contract if there's one we both like. The draft pick is just a little bonus if we don't.
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Post by manfred on Dec 9, 2022 16:31:12 GMT -5
I am confident Devers would return a good package. Not his real value, but hopefully closer than the Betts package.
I do not think they *can* do it now. It would be surrender, and as disappointing as this has all been, signing Jansen, Yoshida etc is not waving a white flag. And fans would be subject to histrionics, as they say.
But there is the bind. Does the price go up or down at the deadline? After that, if he’s not extended, he’s probably gone. So it is all kind of chicken.
I’m up to 10/$360million. Judge money.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2022 16:35:57 GMT -5
What could Devers realistically be traded for at this point? I assume whoever is trading for him is A) a contender, and B) is willing to entertain paying him 300+ mil for an extension, C) has a high tier prospect(s) they are okay with giving up for one year of him that would make it worth our while. I don’t know how many options there are
I hate even thinking about it, but it’s hard to have any confidence they’re going to make him an offer he’ll accept to forgo free agency at the present moment.
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Post by scottysmalls on Dec 9, 2022 16:37:44 GMT -5
I am confident Devers would return a good package. Not his real value, but hopefully closer than the Betts package. I do not think they *can* do it now. It would be surrender, and as disappointing as this has all been, signing Jansen, Yoshida etc is not waving a white flag. And fans would be subject to histrionics, as they say. But there is the bind. Does the price go up or down at the deadline? After that, if he’s not extended, he’s probably gone. So it is all kind of chicken. I’m up to 10/$360million. Judge money. I’m at 360/12 for him and I think they should do it asap. I just fear the ownership isn’t willing to go there for anyone any more, and if not they have to trade him and if they do that they should sell the team.
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Post by ematz1423 on Dec 9, 2022 16:38:33 GMT -5
Which I guess at the same end trade Devers for 2-3 prospects, probably could only fetch maybe 1 top 100 type of guy so what's really the difference I guess. Yeah, that was most of my point. We saw this with Mookie -- true, you could trade him a year before the end of his contract, but what you get back isn't especially compelling. Personally, in that case, I'd rather have had another year of Mookie. I feel like the more positive point of view is that it's not that we're losing Devers for a 4th round pick, we just got to the end of his contract. We stop paying him and he stops playing for us. Or conceivably we re-sign him to a new contract if there's one we both like. The draft pick is just a little bonus if we don't. The Mookie package was bogged down because they attached the David Price contract, they'd have gotten quite a bit more than that for Mookie if it was just him. Looking at that trade though, let's say Devers brought back in essence what Mookie did. That was a ML starter in Verdugo, at the time a top 50-75 prospect in Downs, a decent catching prospect in Wong and I think that's it perhaps I'm forgetting something. Verdugo hasn't taken that next step obviously and yea Downs didn't work out but honestly if either had we'd all be looking at the Mookie trade probably quite a bit differently. So theoretically if they could get an ML starter, a top 50-75 prospect that they actually hit on this time around and a guy who could slot somewhere in the top 25 of the Red Sox farm you have to think about doing it if you know you can't get him signed long term.
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Post by pasadenasox on Dec 9, 2022 16:44:42 GMT -5
Yeah, the drag of the David Price contract albatross seems to be typically (conveniently?) forgotten.
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Post by Guidas on Dec 9, 2022 16:46:20 GMT -5
At this point, I am skeptical that Chaim has the ability to trade Devers even if offered a package that Devers' own mom thinks is way too much. Come on, thats excessive, If you think he is that incompetent, I would like to see you be a GM of a professional baseball team. (and your fantasy team does not count) I'll do it for half of Bloom's salary! Who do I need to call?
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Post by ematz1423 on Dec 9, 2022 16:46:49 GMT -5
I am confident Devers would return a good package. Not his real value, but hopefully closer than the Betts package. I do not think they *can* do it now. It would be surrender, and as disappointing as this has all been, signing Jansen, Yoshida etc is not waving a white flag. And fans would be subject to histrionics, as they say. But there is the bind. Does the price go up or down at the deadline? After that, if he’s not extended, he’s probably gone. So it is all kind of chicken. I’m up to 10/$360million. Judge money. He's probably not worth that in terms of pure production on the field but he's probably worth it to the organization and the goodwill for the fans. On the flipside though if they don't want to give him a deal he would accept and they know he's going to leave next offseason, in a way just rip the band-aid now. Fans will be doubly pissed losing them both but in time things will even out and Sox fans will continue to be Sox fans. We've had a garbage offseason either way as Sox fans seeing Xandy go, I'd personally almost rather just lose them both now than one year from now going through the same exact gut punch all over again. Probably a strange way to look at it but give me the pain the now so I can start the healing rather than re-opening the wound again next year so to speak.
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Post by julyanmorley on Dec 9, 2022 16:48:24 GMT -5
What could Devers realistically be traded for at this point? I assume whoever is trading for him is A) a contender, and B) is willing to entertain paying him 300+ mil for an extension, C) has a high tier prospect(s) they are okay with giving up for one year of him that would make it worth our while. I don’t know how many options there are I hate even thinking about it, but it’s hard to have any confidence they’re going to make him an offer he’ll accept to forgo free agency at the present moment. He's underpaid by like 25-30 million. If they could get the #50 prospect in baseball for him they'd be getting the better side of the deal. Sometimes teams lose their minds chasing a guy like Devers so who knows just what they could get.
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Post by Guidas on Dec 9, 2022 17:16:23 GMT -5
What could Devers realistically be traded for at this point? I assume whoever is trading for him is A) a contender, and B) is willing to entertain paying him 300+ mil for an extension, C) has a high tier prospect(s) they are okay with giving up for one year of him that would make it worth our while. I don’t know how many options there are I hate even thinking about it, but it’s hard to have any confidence they’re going to make him an offer he’ll accept to forgo free agency at the present moment. He's underpaid by like 25-30 million. If they could get the #50 prospect in baseball for him they'd be getting the better side of the deal. Sometimes teams lose their minds chasing a guy like Devers so who knows just what they could get. Lord, I'd hate to deal Devers, but I'd want a top 20 MLB guy who's MLB-ready/near-MLB ready back, plus another 2 top 100 guys, which will likely be further away. You'd also likely be dealing with teams that think they've got a shot at the playoffs and need a third baseman. Bonus if they think they can extend him. So in terms of having at least 1 top 20 prospect to deal ( Baseball America as reference), a playoff chance and the dollars to extend LAD, NYM, SFG, NYY and maybe St.L. For one-year rentals only, you can add TB, MIA if they think this would put them in the hunt, and maybe TOR if they think they have a place to play him.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2022 17:20:34 GMT -5
If we got a stud prospect for someone FSG doesn’t plan to pay, in a vacuum I’d consider it. If you’re Bloom though I don’t know how you avoid last place without Devers, which he probably needs to avoid to keep his job. I was looking at biggest deals in Sox history and number two is still Manny’s 8/160 from… 2000? What I hadn’t remembered is that it was pre-John Henry ownership which did it. What was said at the time was noteworthy: www.mlb.com/news/red-sox-signed-manny-ramirez-at-2000-meetings-c263079060I wonder if that premise still holds true. Who the heck do you sell jerseys and put on the NESN commercial if Raffy is gone?
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Dec 9, 2022 17:39:50 GMT -5
He's underpaid by like 25-30 million. If they could get the #50 prospect in baseball for him they'd be getting the better side of the deal. Sometimes teams lose their minds chasing a guy like Devers so who knows just what they could get. Lord, I'd hate to deal Devers, but I'd want a top 20 MLB guy who's MLB-ready/near-MLB ready back, plus another 2 top 100 guys, which will likely be further away. You'd also likely be dealing with teams that think they've got a shot at the playoffs and need a third baseman. Bonus if they think they can extend him. So in terms of having at least 1 top 20 prospect to deal ( Baseball America as reference), a playoff chance and the dollars to extend LAD, NYM, SFG, NYY and maybe St.L. For one-year rentals only, you can add TB, MIA if they think this would put them in the hunt, and maybe TOR if they think they have a place to play him. So basically you’d be hoping for say Devers+ for Alvarez and Baty. Not going to happen, but Cohen might be the psycho for the job
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Dec 9, 2022 18:02:13 GMT -5
Very different players, they may have similar WAR’s but they get there in their own way What makes you want the better defensive player over the better offensive one given what we've done so far? Given the money left, that's not what we need to be worried about. Simple, I don’t view it as “Verdugo or Kepler”. I view it as Verdugo AND Kepler. They both get to their value in different ways and thus to me they aren’t redundant I don’t hate the idea of rotating Verdugo in the corners + DH while having Yoshida split LF/DH. Refsnyder can sprinkle in for either Verdugo or Kepler against LHP. Kepler plays RF and against RHP. I do think with this ballpark the elite defense in RF and average bat of Kepler is more valuable than the above average bat and meh defense of Verdugo. On the road in a more conventional outfield I think Verdugo would provide more value
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Post by grandsalami on Dec 9, 2022 18:04:19 GMT -5
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Post by charmcitysoxfan on Dec 9, 2022 18:04:50 GMT -5
Are we only talking about players here? Or is there a role above CBO that could be filled?
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Post by Guidas on Dec 9, 2022 19:06:11 GMT -5
Lord, I'd hate to deal Devers, but I'd want a top 20 MLB guy who's MLB-ready/near-MLB ready back, plus another 2 top 100 guys, which will likely be further away. You'd also likely be dealing with teams that think they've got a shot at the playoffs and need a third baseman. Bonus if they think they can extend him. So in terms of having at least 1 top 20 prospect to deal ( Baseball America as reference), a playoff chance and the dollars to extend LAD, NYM, SFG, NYY and maybe St.L. For one-year rentals only, you can add TB, MIA if they think this would put them in the hunt, and maybe TOR if they think they have a place to play him. So basically you’d be hoping for say Devers+ for Alvarez and Baty. Not going to happen, but Cohen might be the psycho for the job I would take Baty and two top 100 guys. But it would be Baty OR Alvarez plus a couple top 100s.
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Post by notstarboard on Dec 9, 2022 19:06:40 GMT -5
Three options, then, at least one of which must be true, assuming this is indeed new information that the Sox made a $120 million offer (very much news to me):
1) Heyman was wrong about the 4/90 offer the first time. 2) Heyman is wrong about the 120 million offer this time. 3) The Sox offered Xander 4/90, he balked, and then they came back with 5/120 (I assume; I guess it could have been 6/120). Then either the first offer leaked but the second offer didn't until much later, or both leaked then but Heyman only reported the low one.
If the Sox offer last offseason was 5/120, I think that's out of the territory of flat out insulting and more plausible as a starting point. Many people here seem convinced that he would have accepted 5/150 this past offseason, so this is at least 80% there. My best guess is still #1.
Edit: And for all of the folks who simultaneously believe that the Sox offered him 4/90 and make decisions based on hypersensitivity to fan opinion, if they actually made him a better offer than 4/90 during the spring, why wouldn't they make that public? That changes the narrative from "the Sox insulted Xander" to "the Sox started too low but everyone knows you never lead with your best offer; they just raised their offer by $30 million so they're clearly trying to make a deal happen" without having to make an actual roster move. Better PR for free. Conclusion: They may or may not have offered 4/90, but they definitely don't care as much as you think they do about fan opinion.
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Dec 9, 2022 19:24:01 GMT -5
So basically you’d be hoping for say Devers+ for Alvarez and Baty. Not going to happen, but Cohen might be the psycho for the job I would take Baty and two top 100 guys. But it would be Baty OR Alvarez plus a couple top 100s. Get greedy dude it’s Christmas
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Post by incandenza on Dec 9, 2022 19:26:54 GMT -5
Three options, then, at least one of which must be true, assuming this is indeed new information that the Sox made a $120 million offer (very much news to me):
1) Heyman was wrong about the 4/90 offer the first time. 2) Heyman is wrong about the 120 million offer this time. 3) The Sox offered Xander 4/90, he balked, and then they came back with 5/120 (I assume; I guess it could have been 6/120). Then either the first offer leaked but the second offer didn't until much later, or both leaked then but Heyman only reported the low one.
If the Sox offer last offseason was 5/120, I think that's out of the territory of flat out insulting and more plausible as a starting point. Many people here seem convinced that he would have accepted 5/150 this past offseason, so this is at least 80% there. My best guess is still #1.
Edit: And for all of the folks who simultaneously believe that the Sox offered him 4/90 and make decisions based on hypersensitivity to fan opinion, if they actually made him a better offer than 4/90 during the spring, why wouldn't they make that public? That changes the narrative from "the Sox insulted Xander" to "the Sox started too low but everyone knows you never lead with your best offer; they just raised their offer by $30 million so they're clearly trying to make a deal happen" without having to make an actual roster move. Better PR for free. Conclusion: They may or may not have offered 4/90, but they definitely don't care as much as you think they do about fan opinion.
My guess is that Heyman is just dumb and is misremembering the 4/90 number. Otherwise it'd be very weird to just casually drop that bombshell in passing.
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Post by ematz1423 on Dec 9, 2022 19:52:08 GMT -5
What the heck are we looking at an offense as things currently stand?..
Hernandez-CF Yoshida-LF Story-2nd Devers-3rd RHH dh? Verdugo-RF Casas-1st Unknown SS McGuire-c
That's not good if you ask me?
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Post by Guidas on Dec 9, 2022 19:59:12 GMT -5
What the heck are we looking at an offense as things currently stand?.. Hernandez-CF Yoshida-LF Story-2nd Devers-3rd RHH dh? Verdugo-RF Casas-1st Unknown SS McGuire-c That's not good if you ask me? Not even in the NL Central.
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