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Evaluating the Front Office and Ownership
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Post by Guidas on Dec 29, 2022 18:55:18 GMT -5
When you've lost Red Sox Stats, who has done his/her level best to justify every front office move the last two years and give them the benefit of every doubt, you've lost the room, the building and fan club:
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wcp3
Veteran
Posts: 3,842
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Post by wcp3 on Dec 29, 2022 19:11:14 GMT -5
There isn’t much to evaluate - the Red Sox have an ownership group that a) is very out of touch with how the league has evolved over the years, and b) has completely lost interest in the team and doesn’t feel like investing in them anymore.
It’s time for those slime balls to sell. Things are only going to get worse until they do.
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Post by grandsalami on Dec 29, 2022 19:22:02 GMT -5
There isn’t much to evaluate - the Red Sox have an ownership group that a) is very out of touch with how the league has evolved over the years, and b) has completely lost interest in the team and doesn’t feel like investing in them anymore. It’s time for those slime balls to sell. Things are only going to get worse until they do. I would be careful what you wish for. Ask. Marlin fans. And if you think owners will approve another Steve Cohen buying another team. It wont happen. MLB owners ( the group as a whole) already said they regretted approving Cohen buying the mets.
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Post by lostinnewjersey on Dec 29, 2022 20:02:52 GMT -5
They don't spend much time articulating the plan, but it's pretty clear what the plan is, and what it's not. They are aiming for sustainable excellence, as opposed to the boom/bust cycle they've been on for the last decade or so. They want to be like the Braves and Astros. One thing this means is they don't want to sign multi-year, high-dollar contracts. They don't want dead money on the books, now or in the future. (I think they see the Price contract now as a mistake to be avoided henceforth.) They've been focusing on high school talent at the top of the draft, signaling that they see their window of contention starting in 2024 or 2025.
If this is right, it's true that some decisions seem anomalous, but they can be explained (which is not to say one has to like the explanation). Why didn't they trade Martinez or Eovaldi at the deadline to get under the threshold? Well, either they weren't getting decent value back, or other teams didn't want to take on those salaries, or they really did think they had a shot at contending for a wild card spot. Why overpay for Yoshida? They presumably think he'll be worth it. Why trade for JBJ? They thought he'd be better than he was, and they liked the prospects that came with him.
I think it is a fair criticism that the rules of the game have changed, and the Red Sox brass find themselves behind the curve. It may turn out that the economics of the game going forward will mean that albatross contracts aren't going to be such a liability. That's clearly what some other teams have decided. But it's also possible that this winter's contracts will hobble some teams by the end of this decade. We'll see.
One thing that concerns me is the possibility that FSG wants to sell the team, which would mean they want to avoid the kind of massive contracts that might hinder the sale. If that is what happens, they'd better change the name -- Penguins Sports Group sounds about right.
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Post by iakovos11 on Dec 29, 2022 20:23:19 GMT -5
There isn’t much to evaluate - the Red Sox have an ownership group that a) is very out of touch with how the league has evolved over the years, and b) has completely lost interest in the team and doesn’t feel like investing in them anymore. It’s time for those slime balls to sell. Things are only going to get worse until they do. Those “slime balls” brought you 4 WS championships in 15 years, more than any franchise this century. They broke the curse. They’ve done it with several different GM’s. And a bad year in 2012 and you want to cut bait? Sell? How fickle. We’ve become such spoiled fans. Hey, I get being frustrated. But. “They must sell” is just over the top spoiled. 2020 should be disregarded, 2021 we’re a few games from the World Series, last year sucked, I get it. This off-season is frustrating, but let them play the effing season. WS in 2018, scrap 2021, almost WS in 2021, and a crappy 2022. No trends there, I remember everyone used to complain about the patriots off-season. The Jets or some bad team would spend millions Upon millions and be declared winners of the offseason. They’d typically continue to suck. Let’s see what happens. I’m a bit mystified too, but I am willing to see what happens this season.
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Post by runner on Dec 29, 2022 20:27:00 GMT -5
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Post by manfred on Dec 29, 2022 20:49:17 GMT -5
Is he supposed to say “we suck”?
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Post by runner on Dec 29, 2022 20:53:12 GMT -5
Why say anything? That's the thing that keeps popping up in my mind when it comes to every time the propaganda machine pops up.
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Post by pappyman99 on Dec 29, 2022 22:04:11 GMT -5
There isn’t much to evaluate - the Red Sox have an ownership group that a) is very out of touch with how the league has evolved over the years, and b) has completely lost interest in the team and doesn’t feel like investing in them anymore. It’s time for those slime balls to sell. Things are only going to get worse until they do. I just think it’s on Bloom until proven otherwise. These obscure, random, seemingly incoherent moves have pretty much been since Bloom has arrived. At least ownership has the track record of being a consistent top 5 (mostly top 3) payroll during their entire tenure. It’s not crazy to think this is a lot of Bloom’s doing. If that is the case then he will be looking for another job by August if we are out of it
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Post by chud on Dec 29, 2022 22:19:48 GMT -5
I'm starting to worry about the safety of Bloom's family and may request a proof of life photo, clearly someone has them hostage and making Bloom read from their printed cue cards....I kid, I kid...But, c'mon and I mean that in the most plural sense: 1) C'mon, every reference to the 2021 team makes me embarrassed for him...It's all he has so it's now his "go to" reference 2) C'mon, although the 2021 team made it to the ALCS, it wasn't all that talented of a team...they played well, but it just wasn't all that talented...I think in an honest moment most of us expected that 2021 team to play like the 2022 team did...Don't get me wrong, I'm psyched they didn't but continuing to measure the 2021 team like it was a very talented one is making a mistake when benchmarking against other teams 3) C'mon, you probably lost the best player from your 2021 team and your SP staff is a whole bunch of question marks...granted it's (basically) January so you still have another month, but shopping at the Salvation Army will not get the 2023 team more talent than the 2021 team did...and I already mentioned, it's not even a huge threshold to surpass 4) C'mon, C'mon, C'mon...Here's how "plan g" is shaping up: Lose (maybe that's the wrong word as to lose something means you meant to keep it) best SS in the history of the franchise (check), trade best RF in franchise history in order to keep the SS that you lost (check), probably alienate your current best player by lack luster contract offers and dismantling of team (check), make qualifying offer to your best healthy SP who rejects it then gets an extra year for same AAV but don't match it to get the 134 pick in the draft proving you do value the draft (check), don't get under the threshold in 2022 to lose immense draft value (check), don't protect a player who goes #1 in the Rule 5 draft (check), release lesser players off the 40 man roster after losing #1 rule 5 pick (check), hold a fan raffle to see who actually plays SS at 81 home games (in process)...Have comms team prepare notes for how 2024 is shaping up to be more talented than the 2021 team (in story board review).
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wcp3
Veteran
Posts: 3,842
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Post by wcp3 on Dec 29, 2022 22:45:49 GMT -5
There isn’t much to evaluate - the Red Sox have an ownership group that a) is very out of touch with how the league has evolved over the years, and b) has completely lost interest in the team and doesn’t feel like investing in them anymore. It’s time for those slime balls to sell. Things are only going to get worse until they do. Those “slime balls” brought you 4 WS championships in 15 years, more than any franchise this century. They broke the curse. They’ve done it with several different GM’s. And a bad year in 2012 and you want to cut bait? Sell? How fickle. We’ve become such spoiled fans. Hey, I get being frustrated. But. “They must sell” is just over the top spoiled. 2020 should be disregarded, 2021 we’re a few games from the World Series, last year sucked, I get it. This off-season is frustrating, but let them play the effing season. WS in 2018, scrap 2021, almost WS in 2021, and a crappy 2022. No trends there, I remember everyone used to complain about the patriots off-season. The Jets or some bad team would spend millions Upon millions and be declared winners of the offseason. They’d typically continue to suck. Let’s see what happens. I’m a bit mystified too, but I am willing to see what happens this season. I’m very aware of what they’ve done historically, but that was when they were actually investing in the team. That hasn’t been the case for years, beginning with the Mookie debacle. It’s wild how many apologists they still have.
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Post by grandsalami on Dec 29, 2022 22:47:42 GMT -5
Those “slime balls” brought you 4 WS championships in 15 years, more than any franchise this century. They broke the curse. They’ve done it with several different GM’s. And a bad year in 2012 and you want to cut bait? Sell? How fickle. We’ve become such spoiled fans. Hey, I get being frustrated. But. “They must sell” is just over the top spoiled. 2020 should be disregarded, 2021 we’re a few games from the World Series, last year sucked, I get it. This off-season is frustrating, but let them play the effing season. WS in 2018, scrap 2021, almost WS in 2021, and a crappy 2022. No trends there, I remember everyone used to complain about the patriots off-season. The Jets or some bad team would spend millions Upon millions and be declared winners of the offseason. They’d typically continue to suck. Let’s see what happens. I’m a bit mystified too, but I am willing to see what happens this season. I’m very aware of what they’ve done historically, but that was when they were actually investing in the team. That hasn’t been the case for years, beginning with the Mookie debacle. It’s wild how many apologists they still have. Lol
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Post by chr31ter on Dec 29, 2022 23:19:39 GMT -5
Is it possible that Bloom believes that while they don't have as much talent at the top of the roster, the additions that he's made will certainly improve the bottom of the roster?
Bringing in Yoshida and Casas means less plate appearances for guys like Dalbec and Cordero and JBJ and Duran. Adding Jansen, Martin, and Rodriguez means less innings for Brasier, Davis, and Sawamura. They're bound to get something out of Sale and Paxton. More innings for Whitlock, Bello, and Houck means fewer innings for Seabold, Winckowski, and Crawford.
Health played a big factor last year and certainly will again this year, but it seems like they gave a ton of innings and plate appearances to guys who performed at or below Replacement Level. Has the bottom of the roster improved enough to more than offset the loss of Bogaerts?
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Post by manfred on Dec 29, 2022 23:26:18 GMT -5
Is it possible that Bloom believes that while they don't have as much talent at the top of the roster, the additions that he's made will certainly improve the bottom of the roster? Bringing in Yoshida and Casas means less plate appearances for guys like Dalbec and Cordero and JBJ and Duran. Adding Jansen, Martin, and Rodriguez means less innings for Brasier, Davis, and Sawamura. They're bound to get something out of Sale and Paxton. More innings for Whitlock, Bello, and Houck means fewer innings for Seabold, Winckowski, and Crawford. Health played a big factor last year and certainly will again this year, but it seems like they gave a ton of innings and plate appearances to guys who performed at or below Replacement Level. Has the bottom of the roster improved enough to more than offset the loss of Bogaerts? It is possible. It is also what many disagree with. It is probable the gamble he’s making with his job as the stakes.
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Post by pappyman99 on Dec 29, 2022 23:37:54 GMT -5
Those “slime balls” brought you 4 WS championships in 15 years, more than any franchise this century. They broke the curse. They’ve done it with several different GM’s. And a bad year in 2012 and you want to cut bait? Sell? How fickle. We’ve become such spoiled fans. Hey, I get being frustrated. But. “They must sell” is just over the top spoiled. 2020 should be disregarded, 2021 we’re a few games from the World Series, last year sucked, I get it. This off-season is frustrating, but let them play the effing season. WS in 2018, scrap 2021, almost WS in 2021, and a crappy 2022. No trends there, I remember everyone used to complain about the patriots off-season. The Jets or some bad team would spend millions Upon millions and be declared winners of the offseason. They’d typically continue to suck. Let’s see what happens. I’m a bit mystified too, but I am willing to see what happens this season. I’m very aware of what they’ve done historically, but that was when they were actually investing in the team. That hasn’t been the case for years, beginning with the Mookie debacle. It’s wild how many apologists they still have. It’s wild that all you really have is conjecture when it comes to what ownership is doing. They were owners in 2018 when we won the WS, Bloom was not with us then. He has been with us since, in your words, “the Betts debacle”
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wcp3
Veteran
Posts: 3,842
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Post by wcp3 on Dec 29, 2022 23:41:13 GMT -5
I’m very aware of what they’ve done historically, but that was when they were actually investing in the team. That hasn’t been the case for years, beginning with the Mookie debacle. It’s wild how many apologists they still have. It’s wild that all you really have is conjecture when it comes to what ownership is doing. They were owners in 2018 when we won the WS, Bloom was not with us then. He has been with us since, in your words, “the Betts debacle” When did I absolve Bloom of any blame? Also, guess who hired Bloom.
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Post by grandsalami on Dec 29, 2022 23:42:33 GMT -5
It’s wild that all you really have is conjecture when it comes to what ownership is doing. They were owners in 2018 when we won the WS, Bloom was not with us then. He has been with us since, in your words, “the Betts debacle” When did I absolve Bloom of any blame? Also, guess who hired Bloom. Again. I would be careful what you wish for. Ask. Marlin fans. And if you think owners will approve another Steve Cohen buying another team. It wont happen. MLB owners ( the group as a whole) already said they regretted approving Cohen buying the mets.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 30, 2022 1:47:48 GMT -5
When did I absolve Bloom of any blame? Also, guess who hired Bloom. Again. I would be careful what you wish for. Ask. Marlin fans. And if you think owners will approve another Steve Cohen buying another team. It wont happen. MLB owners ( the group as a whole) already said they regretted approving Cohen buying the mets. John Henry owned the Marlins for years lol. If MLB owners have an issue with Cohen it shows how messed up they are and how broken the system is.
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wcp3
Veteran
Posts: 3,842
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Post by wcp3 on Dec 30, 2022 8:58:11 GMT -5
When did I absolve Bloom of any blame? Also, guess who hired Bloom. Again. I would be careful what you wish for. Ask. Marlin fans. And if you think owners will approve another Steve Cohen buying another team. It wont happen. MLB owners ( the group as a whole) already said they regretted approving Cohen buying the mets. Noted. And I’m still rooting for them to sell.
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Post by fisk75 on Dec 30, 2022 9:19:04 GMT -5
I do not know who to blame more Chaim or ownership, obviously none of us of privy to those conversations.
I have two frustrations with Chaim. 1. During the season and into the offseason he spoke as if they would be active trying to improve the team. Once the big free agents signed he spoke of the trade market as a place to improve. His actions have not yet matched his words. 2. The lack of creativity- I feel like this has been nothing more than going down the list of free agents. We cant get Abreu, ok here is Turner, cant get Eflin, cant get Eovaldi, how about Kluber.
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Post by Guidas on Dec 30, 2022 9:53:15 GMT -5
There isn’t much to evaluate - the Red Sox have an ownership group that a) is very out of touch with how the league has evolved over the years, and b) has completely lost interest in the team and doesn’t feel like investing in them anymore. It’s time for those slime balls to sell. Things are only going to get worse until they do. I just think it’s on Bloom until proven otherwise. These obscure, random, seemingly incoherent moves have pretty much been since Bloom has arrived. At least ownership has the track record of being a consistent top 5 (mostly top 3) payroll during their entire tenure. It’s not crazy to think this is a lot of Bloom’s doing. If that is the case then he will be looking for another job by August if we are out of it Only if the team loses and continues to bleed viewers/ad revenue on NESN. Remember, if we go back to earlier in the thread to the Speier podcast with Keith Law, Alex is very clear that they hire the head of baseball ops to make 99.9% of the decisions. Henry and Werner are involved in that they have suggestions and have to authorize outsized contracts, and, as Speier says, it's up to the Prez/Chief of Baseball Ops to make the ultimate decision. He then specifically cited Dombrowski insisting on re-signing Sale and Eovaldi, which ownership argued strongly against. When both blew up in the same season, ownership sacked him. So, you are right, this is on Bloom. The operative question is, if he was charged by ownership to create a "sustainable" Tampa-type model with a bigger budget, is letting Mookie, Xander and possibly Devers go, is failure? To remind from the article posted earlier this year (from the Athletic, but I can't find right now so knock yourself out), the "Tampa Way" is predicated on interchangeable players with few stars, short-term contracts for free agents, ruthless separation from players as soon as their models project any kind of decline that does not match salary and leveraging undervalued (hopefully) free agent pitchers then treating them like disposable assets (Tampa has had one of the highest, if not the highest rates of pitcher injuries in the last four years), all while rolling up position players from the farm at a rate of 1 or so a year. If this was his charge, would the owners fire him for carrying it out? Or will they fire him for not adjusting to the changes in the free agent market that began last year and accelerated this year when these new approaches run counter to The Plan™? Again, if they win, it's probably all moot. The only caveat is this ownership group has been known to change their mind with little warning. The most recent public example is Dombrowski being fired after a winning season with an 84-78 record - this in an era where many teams across all sports fail to make the playoffs or lose quickly after winning it all. But as noted above, based on Speier's comments, he dug in his heels against ownership, bet on two players (one of whom ultimately earned out), and got the axe when he came up snake eyes.
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Post by kingofthetrill on Dec 30, 2022 10:02:49 GMT -5
Part of me would be ok with a long title drought again just so a lot of the worst fans will leave.
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Post by cmax on Dec 30, 2022 10:03:23 GMT -5
There isn’t much to evaluate - the Red Sox have an ownership group that a) is very out of touch with how the league has evolved over the years, and b) has completely lost interest in the team and doesn’t feel like investing in them anymore. It’s time for those slime balls to sell. Things are only going to get worse until they do. Those “slime balls” brought you 4 WS championships in 15 years, more than any franchise this century. They broke the curse. They’ve done it with several different GM’s. And a bad year in 2012 and you want to cut bait? Sell? How fickle. We’ve become such spoiled fans. Hey, I get being frustrated. But. “They must sell” is just over the top spoiled. 2020 should be disregarded, 2021 we’re a few games from the World Series, last year sucked, I get it. This off-season is frustrating, but let them play the effing season. WS in 2018, scrap 2021, almost WS in 2021, and a crappy 2022. No trends there, I remember everyone used to complain about the patriots off-season. The Jets or some bad team would spend millions Upon millions and be declared winners of the offseason. They’d typically continue to suck. Let’s see what happens. I’m a bit mystified too, but I am willing to see what happens this season. I agree with the reminder and appreciation of the 4 championships this century - the #1 performance of any team in MLB. For me it is also surprising, particularly in this forum, that people do not give more respect for the consistency Bloom has shown on two fronts: 1. An emphasis on improving the farm system to build for long term, consistent success (Lots of progress being made on this front) and 2. the avoidance of bad, long deals (So far, no atrocious deals, while they are rampant across the sport this offseason - well done). This is why they brought Bloom in and why I am still very happy he is here. I get that it can be frustrating in a year like this when injuries and a couple of holes doomed the team. Last year sucked. It is tough to let go of Xander and I remember how sad and surprising it was when we traded Nomar, and then a world series championship made all of us get over that real fast. Do you want Xander for 11 years on that deal? If not, fans need to stop complaining. I'm not even sure I want to extend Devers in this market. More important to build up the farm. I wish they hadn't converted Duran from 2B to OF as the Duran/Arroyo platoon with Story at SS would perhaps be fine to bridge to Yorke/Mayer. It is exciting the staff will have Bello, Whitlock, Houck, Pivetta and hopefully Sale will show up this year. Are we frontrunners this year? No. And I get it, this sucks. But I appreciate the front officer's consistency on improving the farm system and not getting into bad deals. We just need a couple big success stories from the farm. I for one am not yet giving up on Bello, Casas, Duran, Dalbec & Houck - among others, and am excited about the vision coming to life of homegrown talent + wise spending making us an annual top team. Hopefully, we can get another four World Series championships in the next 20 years. I'm in the camp that understands how the moves we are making are better positioning the franchise to do so, even if all of the moves haven't been perfect, and am excited about the path ahead. Go Red Sox!
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Post by grandsalami on Dec 30, 2022 10:47:41 GMT -5
Again. I would be careful what you wish for. Ask. Marlin fans. And if you think owners will approve another Steve Cohen buying another team. It wont happen. MLB owners ( the group as a whole) already said they regretted approving Cohen buying the mets. John Henry owned the Marlins for years lol. If MLB owners have an issue with Cohen it shows how messed up they are and how broken the system is. Thats my point. Im pretty sure marlin fans would take Henry over the last two owners.
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Post by manfred on Dec 30, 2022 11:00:38 GMT -5
Truthfully, I don’t get the hate for ownership. They have brought us four titles. They’ve proven they can win and care about winning. All the criticisms are speculation bordering on fantasy. Selling? Is there any indication besides grievance?
They won with Theo, with Ben, and with Dave. So *they* remain a constant. What has changed?
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