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Red Sox Acquire Adalberto Mondesi and PTBNL for Josh Taylor
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Post by ematz1423 on Jan 24, 2023 13:50:51 GMT -5
Ehh it keeps Hernandez in CF But Mondesi is coming off an acl terror and is awful at the plate. I’m In the rather have Andrus crowd. Basically have all bench players starting up the middle Fair enough but I'll take Mondesi plus the added 6-8M in payroll flexibility to continue to add while staying under the luxury tax vs andrus.
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Post by dirtywaterinla on Jan 24, 2023 13:51:47 GMT -5
We can be fairly certain that Taylor was not going to be the next DFA player. He just had his contract guaranteed by the Red Sox (who know who the next DFA player will be). Agree; it's a cheaper way to get a utility middle infielder. While thats true, Taylor was under control for 3 years. We traded him away for one year of control over a guy when we will likely not be competitive for a World Series this year. Taylor has struggled with back issues the past two seasons, so clearly the team didn’t like his health outlook. Honestly, despite Mondesi having one year of control and having injury issues of his own, this slightly skews in the Sox favor especially seeing there’s a PTBNL/cash.
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Post by incandenza on Jan 24, 2023 13:52:51 GMT -5
Ehh it keeps Hernandez in CF But Mondesi is coming off an acl terror and is awful at the plate. I’m In the rather have Andrus crowd.Basically have all bench players starting up the middle Is this a "crowd"? Are there others here who would prefer Andrus to Mondesi?
I think I've been lower on Andrus than most here, so maybe my perspective is a little skewed, but the only argument for Andrus over Mondesi I can come up with is health-based, and that's considerably mitigated for me by the fact that Andrus is 7 years older. I.e., it's not clear to me that a 27-year-old with a rough health history is actually a worse bet to stay healthy than a 34-year-old with a relatively clean health history (though it looks like Andrus did miss significant time in 2020 and 2018).
ADD: Mondesi wRC+ (2018-2022): 88 Andrus wRC+ (2018-2022): 82
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Post by julyanmorley on Jan 24, 2023 13:57:32 GMT -5
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Post by wingman478 on Jan 24, 2023 13:58:59 GMT -5
My guess is Andrus is asking for 2 years and the Sox are straight up saying "no thank you." Took the deal for Mondesi.
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Post by stevedillard on Jan 24, 2023 13:59:14 GMT -5
I would have preferred Bobby witt
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Post by scottysmalls on Jan 24, 2023 14:00:28 GMT -5
I might be misunderstanding something in the process here, but once they didn't non-tender him wasn't he guaranteed a contract? And whether or not they agreed on a number before a hearing it was going to be somewhere around $1M. Honestly I have no idea how it works if they DFA a guy before an arbitration number so maybe you're right. From what I've read, the luxury tax hit becomes fully guaranteed once you tender a contract with the new CBA. Versus the last CBA where only a portion was only taken into account with the luxury tax hit if a player gets cut in spring training. Yeah this was my understanding too, so once they decided to tender him a contract in November weren't they always guaranteeing his salary?
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Post by julyanmorley on Jan 24, 2023 14:03:45 GMT -5
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Post by kman22 on Jan 24, 2023 14:05:43 GMT -5
[/div]
Edit: I also think this makes it very likely that Paxton starts the year in the bullpen. Rodriguez is the only other lefty likely to start the year in the majors. The only other lefty bullpen candidates on the 40 man are Walter and Murphy. With that said, Mondesi is only making ~$3 million this year, so it's only a ~$2 million increase over Taylor. That means the Sox should have enough money to spend on a solid bullpen lefty if they'd like (e.g. Chafin).
[/quote] Good call here, maybe he gets the Whitlock treatment from 2 years ago, which was super valuable. On Mondesi, I like the move. Has the potential for upside, low risk, and gives you the flexibility (assuming health) to keep Kiké in CF to start.
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Post by wingman478 on Jan 24, 2023 14:05:59 GMT -5
From what I've read, the luxury tax hit becomes fully guaranteed once you tender a contract with the new CBA. Versus the last CBA where only a portion was only taken into account with the luxury tax hit if a player gets cut in spring training. Yeah this was my understanding too, so once they decided to tender him a contract in November weren't they always guaranteeing his salary? Not sure if his salary was fully guaranteed, but the salary they just agreed upon last week is counted against the CBT, which is what high payroll teams really care about anyways. Basically small market teams closed another loophole around the CBT line.
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Jan 24, 2023 14:08:35 GMT -5
Are we even sure that he starts?? I mean I don't dislike the trade, I think it's very difficult for this to be "bad" and will almost definitely end up being useful, but I guess my thought is with the way Arroyo was hitting last year, he'd make sense as the starter at second while Kiké starts at short. Then you get Mondesi 60-80 games (if he stays healthy) solely by virtue of filling in when Arroyo has an off day or plays right field, or if Kiké has an off day or plays center on Duvall's off day. I'm not really going to complain either way, especially since the defense should end up being much improved pretty much no matter what, but I could also see Mondesi being a super sub who gives the team a ton of positional flexibility, more than they already had.
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Post by scottysmalls on Jan 24, 2023 14:09:29 GMT -5
Yeah this was my understanding too, so once they decided to tender him a contract in November weren't they always guaranteeing his salary? Not sure if his salary was fully guaranteed, but the salary they just agreed upon last week is counted against the CBT, which is what high payroll teams really care about anyways. Basically small market teams closed another loophole around the CBT line. I guess what I don't know is what happens if they DFA a guy before going to arbitration. My understanding was, they didn't non-tender him so they guaranteed him a salary. Say they DFA him and he's not traded or claimed on waivers - do they have to go to arbitration to determine the salary for a guy that's outrighted or released anyways?
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Post by wingman478 on Jan 24, 2023 14:15:53 GMT -5
Not sure if his salary was fully guaranteed, but the salary they just agreed upon last week is counted against the CBT, which is what high payroll teams really care about anyways. Basically small market teams closed another loophole around the CBT line. I guess what I don't know is what happens if they DFA a guy before going to arbitration. My understanding was, they didn't non-tender him so they guaranteed him a salary. Say they DFA him and he's not traded or claimed on waivers - do they have to go to arbitration to determine the salary for a guy that's outrighted or released anyways? I wouldn't worry about that situation happening. The team would probably non tender the player or just hang onto him until spring training.
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,754
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Post by nomar on Jan 24, 2023 14:18:02 GMT -5
If one of Kiké, Arroyo, Duvall, Mondesi, Yoshida or Verdugo are hurt, the question of who starts is already answered. That will probably be the case for the majority of the season. Not going to sweat it now.
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Post by incandenza on Jan 24, 2023 14:19:17 GMT -5
Are we even sure that he starts?? I mean I don't dislike the trade, I think it's very difficult for this to be "bad" and will almost definitely end up being useful, but I guess my thought is with the way Arroyo was hitting last year, he'd make sense as the starter at second while Kiké starts at short. Then you get Mondesi 60-80 games (if he stays healthy) solely by virtue of filling in when Arroyo has an off day or plays right field, or if Kiké has an off day or plays center on Duvall's off day. I'm not really going to complain either way, especially since the defense should end up being much improved pretty much no matter what, but I could also see Mondesi being a super sub who gives the team a ton of positional flexibility, more than they already had. I think between Duvall/Kiké/Mondesi/Arroyo/Verdugo it's almost beside the point who the "starters" are and who the "bench guy" is; they can mix and match on a day-to-day basis. (Kiké's flexibility here, by the way, is HUGELY valuable in a way WAR isn't going to be able to capture. It'll be important for him to stay healthy, at least.)
I'll emphasize again that this allows them to run out a really strong defensive lineup whenever they want to:
C - McWong 1B - Casas 2B - Arroyo SS - Mondesi 3B - Devers LF - Verdugo/Yoshida CF - Kiké RF - Duvall
Just have to sit one of Verdugo, Yoshida, or Turner to make it work. (And yes, I know someone or another is always going to be injured, but it at least shows that the team has some nice defensive upside.)
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Post by scottysmalls on Jan 24, 2023 14:22:20 GMT -5
I guess what I don't know is what happens if they DFA a guy before going to arbitration. My understanding was, they didn't non-tender him so they guaranteed him a salary. Say they DFA him and he's not traded or claimed on waivers - do they have to go to arbitration to determine the salary for a guy that's outrighted or released anyways? I wouldn't worry about that situation happening. The team would probably non tender the player or just hang onto him until spring training. Yeah I mean it's unlikely but my point was I don't think them aligning on a salary is necessarily indicative of whether or not he was next to be DFA'd. Once they didn't non-tender him in November the salary was already guaranteed - at least this was my understanding.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Jan 24, 2023 14:26:42 GMT -5
Hilarious to me that this is likely the trade Chaim was parroting as the move to be on the lookout for when its couldn't be more underwhelming. Hilarious? He said there was another trade coming - that's it. He didn't promise you or anyone else some all-star. There was a new hole to fill and this is at least a start to filling it. One more superior defender if he's healthy. That fits the pattern. I wonder what sort of ridiculous song and dance we get from the media as they backfill for their silly reporting?
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Post by patford on Jan 24, 2023 14:33:34 GMT -5
I'm absolutely furious/thrilled about this trade. Will edit later after I see other people's opinions. Why not just base your opinion on what John Tomase and Buster Olney say like 90% of Sox fans do?
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Post by funkybuddha on Jan 24, 2023 14:35:21 GMT -5
This is a good trade IMO. Mondesi was not only a good player from 2018 - 2020 but a good hitting SS during that period. Prior to injury. So no telling what he is right now but reasonable, given his age, that he is better than what he has shown his last few injury plagued seasons.
IMO the most consistent hitter of the Arroyo, Duvall, Hernandez, Mondesi group is Arroyo. This for sure leaves him on the bench mostly and Duvall in CF mostly. For me, at this point in his career, Duvall is a lot more swing and miss than pop. Not optimistic about him in CF. A position that you need to get some offense from. Hopefully I am wrong. Refsnyeder there also and played so well last year. Another option possibly.
Having said all the above, just like you can count on Sale and Paxton for sure being on IL at points this season, I think it's likely Arroyo, Duvall and Mondesi all spend time on IL. So playing time will work itself out. Good trade.
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Post by julyanmorley on Jan 24, 2023 14:38:05 GMT -5
We now have 3 PTBNLs coming. This one, along with the Seabold and Hoy Park DFA trades.
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Jan 24, 2023 14:53:26 GMT -5
Ehh it keeps Hernandez in CF But Mondesi is coming off an acl terror and is awful at the plate. I’m In the rather have Andrus crowd.Basically have all bench players starting up the middle Is this a "crowd"? Are there others here who would prefer Andrus to Mondesi?
I think I've been lower on Andrus than most here, so maybe my perspective is a little skewed, but the only argument for Andrus over Mondesi I can come up with is health-based, and that's considerably mitigated for me by the fact that Andrus is 7 years older. I.e., it's not clear to me that a 27-year-old with a rough health history is actually a worse bet to stay healthy than a 34-year-old with a relatively clean health history (though it looks like Andrus did miss significant time in 2020 and 2018).
ADD: Mondesi wRC+ (2018-2022): 88 Andrus wRC+ (2018-2022): 82
Mondesi is better and has more upside. On the other hand, there is probably a 5% or less chance that Mondesi stays healthy. Taylor is a JAG, so it's not a bad trade at all. It is what it is. Just don't expect a lot out of this guy.
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Post by bosoxnation on Jan 24, 2023 15:00:55 GMT -5
Great move. We just need one of him/Arroyo to be healthy. Great late inning sub for base running and defense. I see a lot of moving guys around at the end of game if we’re winning to maximize defense.
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 13,961
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Post by cdj on Jan 24, 2023 15:08:11 GMT -5
Seems to have a cannon like his pops
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Post by manfred on Jan 24, 2023 15:10:41 GMT -5
Are we even sure that he starts?? I mean I don't dislike the trade, I think it's very difficult for this to be "bad" and will almost definitely end up being useful, but I guess my thought is with the way Arroyo was hitting last year, he'd make sense as the starter at second while Kiké starts at short. Then you get Mondesi 60-80 games (if he stays healthy) solely by virtue of filling in when Arroyo has an off day or plays right field, or if Kiké has an off day or plays center on Duvall's off day. I'm not really going to complain either way, especially since the defense should end up being much improved pretty much no matter what, but I could also see Mondesi being a super sub who gives the team a ton of positional flexibility, more than they already had. I think between Duvall/Kiké/Mondesi/Arroyo/Verdugo it's almost beside the point who the "starters" are and who the "bench guy" is; they can mix and match on a day-to-day basis. (Kiké's flexibility here, by the way, is HUGELY valuable in a way WAR isn't going to be able to capture. It'll be important for him to stay healthy, at least.)
I'll emphasize again that this allows them to run out a really strong defensive lineup whenever they want to:
C - McWong 1B - Casas 2B - Arroyo SS - Mondesi 3B - Devers LF - Verdugo/Yoshida CF - Kiké RF - Duvall
Just have to sit one of Verdugo, Yoshida, or Turner to make it work. (And yes, I know someone or another is always going to be injured, but it at least shows that the team has some nice defensive upside.)
Didn’t Eric prove mathematically that Duran is the second baseman?
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Post by 0ap0 on Jan 24, 2023 15:17:41 GMT -5
C - McWong 1B - Casas 2B - Arroyo SS - Mondesi 3B - Devers LF - Verdugo/Yoshida CF - Kiké RF - Duvall
Didn’t Eric prove mathematically that Duran is the second baseman? It's right there.
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