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Post by bluechip on May 1, 2013 22:05:08 GMT -5
BTW, because of the lack of corner IF depth in the organization (counting Bogaerts as SS for now), it would not surprise me if the Red Sox take a polished corner IF prospect (Bryant or Moran) with the #7 pick. That pick could then start in Salem next year, with Cecchini starting in Portland and Shaw and (if still with the team) Almanzar starting in Pawtucket. Bingo, instant depth. It's really a minor nitpick because I agree with your point, but while I think it's entirely possible (maybe even likely) that they take one of the corner infield guys, I'm not sure that organizational need (or lack of organizational depth) will be the reason they take them. If one of those two is available and they see them as the best player on the board they would obviously take them, but if - for example - Frazier was also available and they had him ranked higher I don't think they take Bryant or Moran just because they need corner infielders. The only way I see organizational need coming into play (or at least I hope this is the case) is if they have two guys more or less tied, or they've gone back and forth on which they like better, and one happens to play a position they lack depth at. In the MLB draft you pretty much always take best player available. Especially because their positions are not locked in stone.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on May 2, 2013 0:47:42 GMT -5
Chiang didn't build any real trade value. He was filer. Sox traded 4 guys and he was the worst of he four at the time of the deal. Tray on Robinson was the "rise" Seattle got for Bedard. Sox had to ship Fife, FedEx and Jaun Rodruguez to LA. Almanzar is in a different category than Chiang and if he's not then he's not worth anything more than a throwing for organizational depth. Trades this year will be interesting because of the lack of team need and 40 crunch coming. Usually you're looking for bullpen depth or a starter but those seem to be covered baring injury. We'll see. Edit: I realize that perhaps "trade value" meant someone actually taking him from you so I that's what was being said, my bad. I remember that deal differently than you do. The deal was at the trade deadline and Chiang had been tearing the cover off the ball all season long. The M's could have scouted him a number of times and seen him hitting the ball on the screws with consistency. There was even a story that the big difference was getting his diabetes under control to explain his sudden explosion. He was starting to get a bunch of buzz - he even played in the Futures Game that year. Yes, Almanzar is in a bit of a different category, but it's not like Chiang was viewed as chopped liver at the time. The M's even tried to promote him to Triple-A to start the next season, but he wound up getting demoted and basically never hit again.
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Post by burythehammer on May 2, 2013 5:46:48 GMT -5
I don't think it's crazy to suggest that there's a systemic problem with the Mariners in their acquiring of other teams' prospects over the last few years.
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Post by raftsox on May 2, 2013 7:08:05 GMT -5
I'll kind of take credit. In the old forum I opened a thread for a nick name for our most exciting prospect, a 17 y/o that not many knew much about, I wanted Big Poppa just because I was into old school rap back then but Temple came up with Tiger Death House and he won for some reason. I thought you wanted some poisonous spider's name from the DR?
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Jon Meoli
Veteran
Senior Columnist
Posts: 253
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Post by Jon Meoli on May 2, 2013 10:36:35 GMT -5
I can assure all of you that regardless of how well he plays this year, there are three years of reports in every GM's filing cabinet (including Cherington's) that raise huge red flags about Almanzar's work ethic and attitude. He's a huge risk, and one who will put the Sox in a tough spot in that if they truly think he's turned a corner and can be this good, they won't get nearly enough value from him based on his past.
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Post by Oregon Norm on May 2, 2013 11:22:30 GMT -5
I don't think it's crazy to suggest that there's a systemic problem with the Mariners in their acquiring of other teams' prospects over the last few years. An even bigger problem is what they've done with their own prospects. They had a potential outfield that included Shin-Soo Choo, Adam Jones, and Ichiro. They traded the first two away and Ichiro finally decided he'd had enough. They even sent Chris Tillman with Jones to Baltimore, and they threw in George Sherrill and two other prospects for good measure, all for Eric Bedard! With some trades, you might not know what you've really got since players do blossom later (think Bautista here). But there were few who doubted that Adam Jones would be a very good player, maybe even a great one. And they probably chose the wrong guy to get rid of when the DFA'd Carp and kept Smoak, something the Sox have certainly been delighted about. I've got a few buddies up here in the Northwest who can't even talk about this stuff they are so pissed off.
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Post by sdiaz1 on May 2, 2013 14:24:19 GMT -5
I don't think it's crazy to suggest that there's a systemic problem with the Mariners in their acquiring of other teams' prospects over the last few years. An even bigger problem is what they've done with their own prospects. They had a potential outfield that included Shin-Soo Choo, Adam Jones, and Ichiro. They traded the first two away and Ichiro finally decided he'd had enough. They even sent Chris Tillman with Jones to Baltimore, and they threw in George Sherrill and two other prospects for good measure, all for Eric Bedard! With some trades, you might not know what you've really got since players do blossom later (think Bautista here). But there were few who doubted that Adam Jones would be a very good player, maybe even a great one. It should be noted that Eric Bedard was a 28 year old pitcher who that season k'ed over 10/9 allowed less than three walks per 9 and had a cool XFIP of 2.90. All this following two other very solid years where he had averaged a 8 per nine K Rate and a 3 per nine BB rate during his 26 and 27 aged seasons. He had question marks ecpecially in regards to his durability, but he was a damn good pitcher entering his prime. You pay a premium for that type of player, and sadly for the Mariners that trade went about as badly as could have.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on May 2, 2013 18:20:23 GMT -5
I don't think it's crazy to suggest that there's a systemic problem with the Mariners in their acquiring of other teams' prospects over the last few years. An even bigger problem is what they've done with their own prospects. They had a potential outfield that included Shin-Soo Choo, Adam Jones, and Ichiro. They traded the first two away and Ichiro finally decided he'd had enough. They even sent Chris Tillman with Jones to Baltimore, and they threw in George Sherrill and two other prospects for good measure, all for Eric Bedard! With some trades, you might not know what you've really got since players do blossom later (think Bautista here). But there were few who doubted that Adam Jones would be a very good player, maybe even a great one. And they probably chose the wrong guy to get rid of when the DFA'd Carp and kept Smoak, something the Sox have certainly been delighted about. I've got a few buddies up here in the Northwest who can't even talk about this stuff they are so pissed off. Jeff Clement, Jeremy Reed, Greg Halman, Philippe Aumont, Carlos Triunfel. Just not a good track record for the last six years or so. Michael Saunders is their recent prospect success story. Pineda isn't it only because of injury. Last guys they had to graduate and succeed were Jones, Brandon Morrow, and to a lesser extent Mark Lowe and Eric O'Flaherty. Hmmm, maybe I need to trade Walker in my keeper league...
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Post by charliezink16 on May 2, 2013 18:28:13 GMT -5
To make it sound worse, they DFA'd Carp to keep Jason Bay too lol.
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Post by pedroelgrande on May 2, 2013 21:59:50 GMT -5
I thought you wanted some poisonous spider's name from the DR? I had a couple of names, don't remember well what they were.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on May 5, 2013 22:36:05 GMT -5
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Post by Matt Huegel on May 9, 2013 14:42:28 GMT -5
I dunno, but it's funny as hell and needs to catch on here. ... When he breaks into the bigs and becomes a starter, people will start actually calling him Tiger Death House, and they won't have the foggiest idea as to why. Love this quote from that poll. We can still make it happen people!
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badfishnbc
Veteran
Doing you all a favor and leaving through the gate in right field since 2012.
Posts: 412
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Post by badfishnbc on Jul 1, 2014 15:02:58 GMT -5
He's baaaaack...!
So what's the next step for him? Assuming he gets healthy again, do we throw him back into the conversation as a fringe prospect, or is he post-prospect now, maybe a Triple A DH for 2015? Is he Rule 5 eligible again? I'm not sure I remember a time when a prospect got returned to the team.
He's young, and still has a world of talent, but he's every bit the project that he was when he left.
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Post by michael on Jul 1, 2014 15:52:53 GMT -5
He's young He's got RH power He cost $25K plus salary and all other employee expenses Seems like other than taking some ABs from AAA players, its a no lose proposition to me.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Jul 1, 2014 16:17:36 GMT -5
He's young He's got RH power He cost $25K plus salary and all other employee expenses Seems like other than taking some ABs from AAA players, its a no lose proposition to me. Welcome back!
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Post by widewordofsport on Jul 1, 2014 19:45:26 GMT -5
Yes R5D eligible, and minor league FA after (cant be returned)...similar to Cabral I believe.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jul 2, 2014 8:54:07 GMT -5
He's R5 eligible (you never lose that eligibility once you get it). I think you're right that, like Cabral, he wouldn't need to be returned if he's selected again. That's entirely separate from his free agent eligibility though - it's because he's been selected once already.
As for his being returned, that happens all the time. Most R5 picks are returned. It's just that they don't usually get injured, delaying their return until July. Sox minor leaguers who were returned after selection the past few years included Jorge Jimenez, Lincoln Holdzkom, Jose Capellan, Cesar Cabral (the first time), Armando Zerpa, and Daniel Turpen.
That's the reason why R5 is really a much smaller deal than most people make it out to be - it's rare, under the current rules, that a player sticks, and it's rarer still that it's a player of any consequence.
But yeah, long live Tiger Death House.
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ericmvan
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Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 8,925
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Post by ericmvan on Jul 2, 2014 13:54:36 GMT -5
From the old days of inadequate scouting: the Sox once left a low-A 1B unprotected after he had hit .336 / .415 / .433. The Cardinals drafted him, and discovered that his defense was still so raw that he couldn't be of any use on an MLB roster, and returned him the day before the season began.
A year later, he had rocketed up to AA with a bat so impressive that the Sox decided he could start for them next year, so that winter they traded their incumbent 1B, George Scott, to the Brewers in a deal so lopsided that they got essentially nothing for him.
The next ST the Sox decided that the kid's defense was ... yup, so bad that he couldn't do the job in MLB. So they panicked and traded Sparky Lyle for Danny Cater. How bad was that trade? The Yankees were so embarrassed for us that when they sold us Mario Guerrero later in the year, they played along with the fiction that there had been a PTBNL in the original deal.
Of course, five years later we traded the kid to the Brewers to get Scott back, another trade of almost incomprehensible badness.
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Post by juanpena on Jul 2, 2014 15:27:23 GMT -5
That's not the whole story Eric. A big part of the Cater trade was that old-school baseball man/teetotaler Eddie Kasko couldn't stand hard-drinking, free-spirited Sparky Lyle and wanted him gone for anything.
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jimoh
Veteran
Posts: 3,972
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Post by jimoh on Jul 3, 2014 6:26:20 GMT -5
That's not the whole story Eric. A big part of the Cater trade was that old-school baseball man/teetotaler Eddie Kasko couldn't stand hard-drinking, free-spirited Sparky Lyle and wanted him gone for anything. Plus Lyle liked to sit naked on birthday cakes. Right before the trade he did this to a Tom Yawkey birthday cake, and Bill Lee blamed the trade on that.
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