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Patriots 2023 Season Thread
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Post by rjp313jr on Jan 2, 2024 13:47:45 GMT -5
I’m not a big anonymous sources guy but Trent Brown is who he is and it’s not a secret.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jan 2, 2024 13:53:27 GMT -5
As posted above, six trades for kickers since 2017. So your whole argument is wrong, in an average year you can't just trade for even good kickers. Before 2023 in the 6 years before 2 kickers were traded. We all know Ryland sucks, he's not getting released. You bring in competition and see what happens next year. Long list of kickers who struggled then went on to be very good. Im not trying to make a comment on the long term trade market for kicking. My point was that ryland was a terrible pick and we could’ve kept folk for free, or traded a seventh for lutz instead. The whole trade thing was really not a big part of my argument. Funny your point seems to keep changing. Lutz was traded on August 28th after losing a kicker competition, same with Folk. Kicking isn't just FGs and you couldn't have Folk doing kickoffs. It tanked our special teams last year and is why we drafted a kicker. Yeah Ryland hasn't been good on FGs, he's soooo much better at kickoffs it's not even funny. Our punter who's been very good doesn't do kickoffs. So it's really not as simple as just keeping Folk either, unless you don't remember last year. Folk also doesn't have a big leg by current NFL standards and that's big for a team like the Patriots playing in the North East during winter. Nevermind the 49ers basically forced us to draft Ryland earlier than the Patriots likely wanted too because they took Moody in the 3rd round. He was my top kicker. So Ryland hasn't been good, I'm not a fan of using a 4th round pick on a kicker. That being said, it's not as easy finding great kickers or even good ones as you make it seem. It's actually been a blessing that he's been bad, let's see what he does next year. Per draft ranking the top two kickers were Moody and Ryland, split about 50-50 which one was better. So this wasn't like taking the Marshall kicker a few years back either. I don't even really understand why we are talking about this, no better year to give a rookie kicker a chance to grow than this year. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jan 2, 2024 13:59:57 GMT -5
Quinn Ewers what did people think of him in that game? Penix overshadowed him with a monster game, with much more offensive talent. He's a guy I'm interested to watch tape on if he declares.
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Post by christianarroyossock on Jan 2, 2024 14:12:15 GMT -5
Im not trying to make a comment on the long term trade market for kicking. My point was that ryland was a terrible pick and we could’ve kept folk for free, or traded a seventh for lutz instead. The whole trade thing was really not a big part of my argument. Funny your point seems to keep changing. Lutz was traded on August 28th after losing a kicker competition, same with Folk. Kicking isn't just FGs and you couldn't have Folk doing kickoffs. It tanked our special teams last year and is why we drafted a kicker. Yeah Ryland hasn't been good on FGs, he's soooo much better at kickoffs it's not even funny. Our punter who's been very good doesn't do kickoffs. So it's really not as simple as just keeping Folk either, unless you don't remember last year. Folk also doesn't have a big leg by current NFL standards and that's big for a team like the Patriots playing in the North East during winter. Nevermind the 49ers basically forced us to draft Ryland earlier than the Patriots likely wanted too because they took Moody in the 3rd round. He was my top kicker. So Ryland hasn't been good, I'm not a fan of using a 4th round pick on a kicker. That being said, it's not as easy finding great kickers or even good ones as you make it seem. It's actually been a blessing that he's been bad, let's see what he does next year. Per draft ranking the top two kickers were Moody and Ryland, split about 50-50 which one was better. So this wasn't like taking the Marshall kicker a few years back either. I don't even really understand why we are talking about this, no better year to give a rookie kicker a chance to grow than this year. Read my original comment if you want to see my point, the rest was just going back and forth with you about pointless things. We came into this year trying to win so ryland was a bad pick. Being glad that he helped the tank now is like saying that you’re glad that gonzalez got hurt. I guess it gave us a better draft pick this year but you want your young guys to succeed and develop, not fail. Anyway, feel free to respond if you want to add but I am going to be done commenting on this topic for now. |
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Jan 2, 2024 14:55:56 GMT -5
Quinn Ewers what did people think of him in that game? Penix overshadowed him with a monster game, with much more offensive talent. He's a guy I'm interested to watch tape on if he declares. He definitely has tools to work with, I think it would be smart for him to stay in school another year though. But that raises questions about Arch Manning and if one of them would have to transfer But yeah Penix stole the dang show |
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Post by rasimon on Jan 2, 2024 14:58:29 GMT -5
According to SpotTrac, last offseason there were 23 free agent kickers. Nine of them signed
Below are the nine who signed. So there were clearly good kickers that they could have signed.
Matt Gay, the only one to get even 5MM guaranteed, is a very good kicker.
Matt Prater is on the older side, but he is still very good. He kicked a 62 yarder this year btw.
Zuerlien is also on the older side. But he has been excellent this year too.
So maybe there are not that many trades, but Ks are definitely available.
Why be the guinea pig to figure out if a college kicker is any good.? Just sign one who has been decent to good. They cost nothing.
NAME_____________AGE___TOTAL___GUAR__YRS____AV (current)
Matt Gay__________29_____22.50___13.0____4____15
Matt Prater________39______7.50____4.0____2____45
Eddy Piniero_______28______4.10____2.3____2____9
Greg Zuerlein______36______2.60____1.8____1____32
Brandon McManus__32______2.00____1.3____1____28
Greg Joseph_______29______2.00____0.2____1____7
Chase McLaughlin___27______1.10____0.2____1____7
Michael Badgley____28______1.08____0.0____1_____12
Brett Maher________34______1.08____0.0____1____8
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Post by beasleyrockah on Jan 2, 2024 15:28:05 GMT -5
This kicker conversation is killing me. Gostkowski was picked in the same range and that pick certainly worked out. If Ryland was Gostkowski 2.0, I'd have no issue with taking a kicker that high, but you have to make the right evaluation (and develop the player to reach their full potential). It's the same thing with Cole Strange, if he was Logan Mankins 2.0 it'd be fine to take a guard in his spot. Investing heavily in positions with less value is okay if you nail the pick, but if the player doesn't perform you deserve criticism.
That's also true when you miss at QB (Mac) or WR (Harry) or any position, it's not like we're saying "oh sure Mac is a bust but that's okay because at least we went with the consensus top remaining player at a premium position of need".
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Jan 2, 2024 15:39:43 GMT -5
So, what kicker are the Patriots taking with the 2nd pick?
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Post by benogliviesbrother on Jan 2, 2024 15:46:45 GMT -5
I dunno -- that's a stretch. Unnamed player offering vague quote to Giardi -- fired NFL reporter now a local hot take guy -- and never even mentions TB's by name? I'm not going to smear a guy's reputation with that as evidence. Are you joking? We have a career worth of reports on Trent Brown. The guys played greatly improved when they paid him more. He's had motivation issues his entire career. So you won't believe reports by actual reporters, but you'll believe your own opinion based on absolutely nothing? Vague quote? There's nothing vague about that quote. Bill must be a horrible coach, because the Browns fired him lol. I'll believe my opinion as evidence comes in. Unlike you, I often change my opinion based on new information. Unfortunately the information you provided on Trent was a big nothingburger. You cited an article as proof to your claim. I called this claim flimsy. It is flimsy. The author cited Giardi's report that a single anonymous player said something about an unnamed player that the author (sort of) inferred might be Trent. That's flimsy. Now you want to add in the totality of his career here to support your previous claim? I've zero interest in litigating Trent's career as a Patriot. You hate the guy -- good for you. I do not hate the guy. But that doesn't mean I think he's the most manageable/agreeable player on the roster. He's likely a PIA. But that's not my problem. He's generally a good player, when he plays, at an important position. He makes small money, relatively, for what he provides. Anyway, I'm on to the draft. I just hate to see Patriot players or coaches smeared unfairly. |
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Post by benogliviesbrother on Jan 2, 2024 15:49:06 GMT -5
Quinn Ewers what did people think of him in that game? Penix overshadowed him with a monster game, with much more offensive talent. He's a guy I'm interested to watch tape on if he declares. I liked Ewers as a sleeper prospect 10-15 pages back. I like him but wonder if he has enough arm. Whether he comes out might depend on how much of a threat he views The Next Manning, who is (for now) his back-up. |
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Post by pedromartinez1999 on Jan 2, 2024 15:52:45 GMT -5
He wants to win like sitting Malcolm Butler or pushing Brady out the door to prove it was all about him for winning. BB first prioritize himself all he cares about is Don Shula record, but if he can stick his chest out and sacrifice wins to prove that he will do it. BB didn't appreciate Trenton Brown liking Jac Jones ranting about BB or not letting Malik Cunningham get a shot at QB not with the ego BB has just ask Rob Gronkowski who quit because of his coaching style which is outdated. I do agree with you that Trent Brown needs to step up and do his job, but just cut him if you don't like him and not handle the way BB does it's not a good look for free agents next season it only hurts Patriots and Kraft to convince players to trust them and come to New England without overpaying them just to come here. You literally have players calling him out, but yeah you're right. Then release him like I said don't keep him around for more drama remember it's fans like you who believe BB does what's best for the team. We will soon find out if he gets release and or not if it's causing players to get mad. I tend not to listen to anonymous sources or sports talk radio gossip something you do if it helps your debate. I remember Michael Lombardi saying 2 weeks after the SB that anonymous sources told him that Malcolm Butler was hurt that's why he didn't play in the SB I remember right after the game a reporter ask him on tv why he didn't play ask BB where ready to play yes. |
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Post by benogliviesbrother on Jan 2, 2024 15:54:16 GMT -5
According to SpotTrac, last offseason there were 23 free agent kickers. Nine of them signed Below are the nine who signed. So there were clearly good kickers that they could have signed. Matt Gay, the only one to get even 5MM guaranteed, is a very good kicker. Matt Prater is on the older side, but he is still very good. He kicked a 62 yarder this year btw. Zuerlien is also on the older side. But he has been excellent this year too. So maybe there are not that many trades, but Ks are definitely available. Why be the guinea pig to figure out if a college kicker is any good.? Just sign one who has been decent to good. They cost nothing. NAME_____________AGE___TOTAL___GUAR__YRS____AV (current) Matt Gay__________29_____22.50___13.0____4____15 Matt Prater________39______7.50____4.0____2____45 Eddy Piniero_______28______4.10____2.3____2____9 Greg Zuerlein______36______2.60____1.8____1____32 Brandon McManus__32______2.00____1.3____1____28 Greg Joseph_______29______2.00____0.2____1____7 Chase McLaughlin___27______1.10____0.2____1____7 Michael Badgley____28______1.08____0.0____1_____12 Brett Maher________34______1.08____0.0____1____8 Nice chart, But I'd expect the reason these kickers were available is because they weren't very good the prior year(s)? I think if you like a kicker (have him rated top 1 or 2 on your board), then it is absolutely fine to draft him with a 4th round pick. The choice becomes: #1 PK or # 11 WR or #7 RB or #8 OT etc. etc. Seems to me your likely to hit on the kicker. |
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Post by rasimon on Jan 2, 2024 20:39:17 GMT -5
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jan 3, 2024 18:34:41 GMT -5
Are you joking? We have a career worth of reports on Trent Brown. The guys played greatly improved when they paid him more. He's had motivation issues his entire career. So you won't believe reports by actual reporters, but you'll believe your own opinion based on absolutely nothing? Vague quote? There's nothing vague about that quote. Bill must be a horrible coach, because the Browns fired him lol. I'll believe my opinion as evidence comes in. Unlike you, I often change my opinion based on new information. Unfortunately the information you provided on Trent was a big nothingburger. You cited an article as proof to your claim. I called this claim flimsy. It is flimsy. The author cited Giardi's report that a single anonymous player said something about an unnamed player that the author (sort of) inferred might be Trent. That's flimsy. Now you want to add in the totality of his career here to support your previous claim? I've zero interest in litigating Trent's career as a Patriot. You hate the guy -- good for you. I do not hate the guy. But that doesn't mean I think he's the most manageable/agreeable player on the roster. He's likely a PIA. But that's not my problem. He's generally a good player, when he plays, at an important position. He makes small money, relatively, for what he provides. Anyway, I'm on to the draft. I just hate to see Patriot players or coaches smeared unfairly. Patriot players or coaches smeared unfairly? Trent deserves it, many different reports from many different people all saying bad things. Look what you said about Bill! Based on just your opinion. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jan 3, 2024 18:47:06 GMT -5
This kicker conversation is killing me. Gostkowski was picked in the same range and that pick certainly worked out. If Ryland was Gostkowski 2.0, I'd have no issue with taking a kicker that high, but you have to make the right evaluation (and develop the player to reach their full potential). It's the same thing with Cole Strange, if he was Logan Mankins 2.0 it'd be fine to take a guard in his spot. Investing heavily in positions with less value is okay if you nail the pick, but if the player doesn't perform you deserve criticism. That's also true when you miss at QB (Mac) or WR (Harry) or any position, it's not like we're saying "oh sure Mac is a bust but that's okay because at least we went with the consensus top remaining player at a premium position of need". While I agree mostly with what you're saying, I don't think the draft is a science. It's my belief you can do a good evaluation and the player still busts. It's why I grade draft picks basically twice, when drafted based on value, need, fit, future, etc and how they preform long-term. Which you really should wait 4 years. Cole Strange has shown flashes for example, still a chance he develops into a good player. Just like Ryland could be awesome next year, many kickers are up and down. Take Mac Jones that's a good pick in my book that just didn't workout. Sure ding them because he failed, just not the same as taking guys like Harry or Thornton in my book. That's why it's kinda crazy talking about dumping a player as a rookie. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Jan 4, 2024 8:54:49 GMT -5
The best I can tell FG kicking is made up of 3 things:
1. Raw ability like leg strength and ease of that strength
2. Technique and repeating that
3. Mentality
The first one is probably the least important of the 3 and the one Ryland excels at. It’s also the one that raises the ceiling of the kicker the most and the one that can’t be learned.
The second one is very important and where he clearly struggles, but it’s also the one you can develop the most.
Mentality is very important too and this can get broken and is harder to develop. He doesn’t seem like someone who’s broken here and he hit that 56 yard game winner perfectly. I think he’s probably good here. He clearly believes strongly in his faith so I’m guessing that helps him. I have no religious faith so admittedly I can’t relate and am assuming.
Point being, there’s a good ball of clay to work with here. It’s a huge offseason for him to refine his technique and get a consistent routine and leg path.
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cdj
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Posts: 15,862
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Post by cdj on Jan 4, 2024 11:19:11 GMT -5
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Jan 4, 2024 14:51:54 GMT -5
None of which is unbelievable. I still don't like cutting Jack Jones. I get why, but I think you send the message by benching him until he learns his lesson. Patricia was never really fired and Billy O isn't great. Then again, maybe the offense is much more fluid if all the coaches aligned with what O'Brien wanted to do. I can see that being truthful. I think Bill wanted to give Matty P another year to grow into the role. Other coaches around the league laughed at the Patriots last year, but the offense was still much more competent with their highschool play calling. Trent Brown is for Trent Brown. I don't think that's a shocking statement. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Jan 4, 2024 16:04:19 GMT -5
None of which is unbelievable. I still don't like cutting Jack Jones. I get why, but I think you send the message by benching him until he learns his lesson. Patricia was never really fired and Billy O isn't great. Then again, maybe the offense is much more fluid if all the coaches aligned with what O'Brien wanted to do. I can see that being truthful. I think Bill wanted to give Matty P another year to grow into the role. Other coaches around the league laughed at the Patriots last year, but the offense was still much more competent with their highschool play calling. Trent Brown is for Trent Brown. I don't think that's a shocking statement. I get why you would want to keep Jack Jones but this isn’t an isolated incident with him. |
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Jan 4, 2024 16:30:55 GMT -5
None of which is unbelievable. I still don't like cutting Jack Jones. I get why, but I think you send the message by benching him until he learns his lesson. Patricia was never really fired and Billy O isn't great. Then again, maybe the offense is much more fluid if all the coaches aligned with what O'Brien wanted to do. I can see that being truthful. I think Bill wanted to give Matty P another year to grow into the role. Other coaches around the league laughed at the Patriots last year, but the offense was still much more competent with their highschool play calling. Trent Brown is for Trent Brown. I don't think that's a shocking statement. I get why you would want to keep Jack Jones but this isn’t an isolated incident with him. Oh, not saying it was either. I just liked the talent enough to say, "you're either going to get in line and play for us or you're just not playing". If it was a winning season I think you make the move to cut him. When you've completely imploded I don't think there's much value in cutting. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Jan 4, 2024 16:33:38 GMT -5
I get why you would want to keep Jack Jones but this isn’t an isolated incident with him. Oh, not saying it was either. I just liked the talent enough to say, "you're either going to get in line and play for us or you're just not playing". If it was a winning season I think you make the move to cut him. When you've completely imploded I don't think there's much value in cutting. Interesting, I feel the opposite. Need to get back to a winning culture and guys like him and Brown are cancers when things aren’t good and you don’t have the winning culture to rein them in. |
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Jan 4, 2024 16:39:22 GMT -5
Oh, not saying it was either. I just liked the talent enough to say, "you're either going to get in line and play for us or you're just not playing". If it was a winning season I think you make the move to cut him. When you've completely imploded I don't think there's much value in cutting. Interesting, I feel the opposite. Need to get back to a winning culture and guys like him and Brown are cancers when things aren’t good and you don’t have the winning culture to rein them in. At the very least try to get some value back via trade. With the amount of guys you have hitting free agency this off-season and the amount of space available I think there's big changes coming anyways. The culture might not matter as much. |
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Jan 5, 2024 7:34:24 GMT -5
Also, to be fair to Jones. It sounds like the coaches weren't even getting along.
I don't see anyone really discrediting this report. Assuming this is accurate, I don't see how Bill can come back. This report comes out because you've made a decision and you don't want to leave room for doubt.
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Post by rasimon on Jan 5, 2024 10:38:13 GMT -5
Also, to be fair to Jones. It sounds like the coaches weren't even getting along. I don't see anyone really discrediting this report. Assuming this is accurate, I don't see how Bill can come back. This report comes out because you've made a decision and you don't want to leave room for doubt. I was wondering if the Krafts had made up their mind to fire Bill and this article was fed to the press by the Krafts, or by their people, in order to justify the firing decision to the public. I have no evidence this is true, other than the convenient timing of the story. This assumes of course that they do let Bill go next week. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jan 5, 2024 12:37:30 GMT -5
I find it funny, like the lesson is Kraft shouldn't be messing with Bill telling him who to hire while listening to the Media because they were all wrong about Matt Patricia and Mac Jones. Kraft gets involved telling Bill who to hire, worst season for Bill ever with Patriots.
I want to know if Kraft was involved with Mac Jones starting over Zappe last year. The information about Bill status has changed. I truly wonder if it's because of that, Kraft forced Mac Jones and now watching Zappe he's starting to understand. That a huge part of this mess is because our owner got involved and he stopped trusting Bill.
Imagine Kraft doing that crap with Bledsoe and Brady.
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