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Patriots 2024 Offseason Thread
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Post by benogliviesbrother on Mar 1, 2024 20:08:18 GMT -5
I think it’s surprising that Jayden Daniels is passing Drake Maye on draft boards. We haven’t really seen a player like Maye flame out in the NFL. He fits the Roethlisberger/Allen/Herbert/Lawrence “giant athlete who decided to play quarterback.” It’s not my favorite archetype. Like those other prospects, Maye’s footwork and mechanics are a mess coming out of college. But if he’s there at three, I have to believe New England would be doing backflips. There's plenty of QBs who fit your loosely defined profile that did not find success. This articles shows every QB drafted since 2000. Read 'em & weep, as they say. Being big & strong is no guarantee of future success. www.nfl.com/news/2023-nfl-draft-ranking-every-quarterback-class-since-2000 |
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Post by philarhody on Mar 1, 2024 20:43:57 GMT -5
I think it’s surprising that Jayden Daniels is passing Drake Maye on draft boards. We haven’t really seen a player like Maye flame out in the NFL. He fits the Roethlisberger/Allen/Herbert/Lawrence “giant athlete who decided to play quarterback.” It’s not my favorite archetype. Like those other prospects, Maye’s footwork and mechanics are a mess coming out of college. But if he’s there at three, I have to believe New England would be doing backflips. There's plenty of QBs who fit your loosely defined profile that did not find success. This articles shows every QB drafted since 2000. Read 'em & weep, as they say. Being big & strong is no guarantee of future success. www.nfl.com/news/2023-nfl-draft-ranking-every-quarterback-class-since-2000Nah, not with the feel, touch and moxie that Maye plays with. I’m be very surprised if he didn’t turn into a franchise qb. Not my favorite style of quarterback, but rare traits and makeup. Note: that article is a ranked order of the worst and best quarterback classes of the last 20 years. Show me one qb who flamed out with all of Drake Maye’s tools. There isn’t one. Maye is a ways away but he’s got all the tools and real feel for the position. |
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Post by benogliviesbrother on Mar 1, 2024 21:09:04 GMT -5
"Feel" isn't a "tool," it's a subjectively assessed attribute.
Anyone with similar measurables I name will likely fail to pass your "feel" judgement, so that's gonna be a nah for me, dawg. I stand by my comment but do not feel a need to split endless hairs with anyone about it.
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Post by texs31 on Mar 1, 2024 21:46:06 GMT -5
I see we've already entered the "he's got moxie" portion of the offseason. Little earlier than I expected, tbh.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 2, 2024 0:02:28 GMT -5
38 first downs with his legs last year. If that's nothing to you, okay. It's crazy meaningful to me and makes a huge difference for an offense. Nevermind who do you want grooming your next QB? A mobile QB or a pure pocket passer? There's only one PP in the draft and he's more mobile than Cousins. If you draft Penix, I'd say just let him play. That's the advantage with him given his age and experience. At the same time a PP makes things harder in today's NFL. Interestingly, I'm seeing a couple of reports that say Denver is looking at Cousins and that New England hasn't shown interest in either Cousins or Mayfield. Which makes sense to your other point of if you're drafting a guy who can use his legs as part of his game then you probably want a veteran who can and had. Which might align with reports that they really want Jayden Daniels. My guess is that they'll take him and a veteran to learn behind and will likely get beaten up this season. In regards to 1D, Wilson had 135 passing TD this year to Kirk's 112 (8 games). Add 38 more 173 total. Kirk last year had 230 passing 1D. It's great that Wilson gives you options, but Kirk was doing the job more consistently, but he also did have better weapons. Neither guy is looking to have an explosive offense in NE. If the plan is Daniels + Wilson I can see the logic in that. I have no idea what the plan is, no one does. Wilson makes more sense for this team, given defensive coach, OC that loves to run, etc. You have to adjust for attempts Vikings top 4 team in passing attempts and bottom in rushing, Denver bottom team in passing attempts and middle of the road rushing. Our OC in Cleveland ran the ball a ton. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 2, 2024 0:05:25 GMT -5
Seriously? Do you really think Wilson stats on a horrible Broncos team year one with bad coaching is meaningful? Same draft, same amount of years in NFL, Wilson 115-72-1 with QB rating of 100.0 and 39 GWD, Cousins 76-67-2 QB rating of 98.2 and 28 GWD. Wilson 9 pro bowls to Cousins 4. Wilson had more Yards and TDs, with less interceptions. Now add in massive difference in Rushing, its not even close. Cousins is like Derek Carr, puts up good stats but is highly overrated. Wilson played in a defensive run first team, perfect fit for our Coach and OC. Cousins has played with some of the best weapons in football from Diggs to Jefferson. Diggs hated him so much he forced a trade to Bills. Oh yeah one is fully healthy and the other is coming off of major surgery. Wilson is an ok QB, was never that great, always over-rated but at one time he was good enough to win you a SB. Those days are long gone, unless he wants to take no money and go to a super team. It's funny he went from overrated to underrated. You can win with him if you have a good D and running attack, while he isn't making top QB money. |
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Post by costpet on Mar 2, 2024 8:44:40 GMT -5
With Jackson gone, the Pats have over $100 million to play with. You can fill a lot of holes with that kind of money. OL, WR can be improved even before the draft. Maybe even sign a veteran QB to teach the new QB. Mayo has been put in a great spot. I hope he uses all this ammo wisely.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 2, 2024 13:19:00 GMT -5
Just my two cents, I can see why you'd group Josh Allen with Maye somewhat, size, running, physical traits, two years starting. Lost weapons to NFL and did worse his 2nd year. I'm not a fan of that, Josh Allen was way more raw than Maye, Roethlisberger and Herbert. He's like a two year starting version of Roethlisberger and Herbert, but better runner than both. Also much better competition than Roethlisberger, which is why the Herbert comp is used a ton. For me Josh Allen is like Richardson, all the tools, but raw a heck. With those two it was looking at flashes and a few games, Maye has been much more consistent over his two years.
Maye has great feel and touch throwing the ball at all three levels. When his OL gives him time, he looks absolutely amazing. He can make all the throws.
I see people picking on his play when his bad OL is getting manhandled and he's trying to do everything he can to help his team win. Yeah some bad things happen, bad interception against Clemson. It's funny that people feel that way, it's a plus for me. Overall he did rather well with it and I rather he learns that in College than the pros like Mac Jones.
My biggest worry is only two years starting, I really want 3. So you should bring him along slower and when he plays like they did with Mac Jones in his first year. He's a darn good QB prospect and if it wasn't for Harrison Jr. I would be 100% on drafting him at #2.
What would happen if you switched Maye with Daniels? Give Maye two WR that might go top 15 and Daniels Walker who was maybe the most disappointing player at the senior bowl?
Maye takes off to throw way more than Daniels. Those plays where he didn't look great when his OL was horrible and he's trying to make plays with his arm, is something Daniels almost never did. Daniels just took off running! Do we want an older mobile QB that doesn't throw on the move much? What is easier cleaning that up or teaching a guy how to do it in the first place?
What was up with Daniels his first year at LSU? If you ding Maye for his play losing a bunch of talent to NFL like Downs and OL guys. What the excuse for Daniels not doing great with those guys?
As a Notre Dame Homer I can't stress how good Brain Kelly is on college offenses. He hides your weaknesses and allows your strengths to shine. At same time none of his QBs do well in the NFL. Daniels will need more work to adjust to the NFL game more than Maye.
Let's remember this is the crazy time of year, draft guys always move QBs up and it's why we see a bunch fall. It's never the other way around. Why? They don't have draft boards anything like a ton of teams!
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Post by texs31 on Mar 2, 2024 16:52:49 GMT -5
I need to apologize to you all in advance. As a Michigan fan I can already see myself irrationally stumping for JJ McCarthy (not at 3, mind you but . . .).
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Post by benogliviesbrother on Mar 2, 2024 18:48:04 GMT -5
I need to apologize to you all in advance. As a Michigan fan I can already see myself irrationally stumping for JJ McCarthy (not at 3, mind you but . . .). Seeing him at the combine -- he looks the part, and at age 21. Dude weighed in at a tuned 220. He's a man. LFG! |
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Mar 2, 2024 19:48:30 GMT -5
I need to apologize to you all in advance. As a Michigan fan I can already see myself irrationally stumping for JJ McCarthy (not at 3, mind you but . . .). Seeing him at the combine -- he looks the part, and at age 21. Dude weighed in at a tuned 220. He's a man. LFG! I think age gets downplayed too much. Big difference facing 19 year olds when you're 21 vs 24-25. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 2, 2024 23:23:37 GMT -5
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 3, 2024 10:51:46 GMT -5
Well it's confirmed, it's an epic WR class, literally no one disappointed. Coleman might be the big loser, but he was known to have speed issues, Harry type WR. Even my Sleeper Thrash put up solid numbers for a great route runner, at 4.46.
Jayden Daniels #2 big WR running 4.33, just confirms how special his two weapons were
RB group is great, we knew that.
TE group isn't great, but Sanders 40 time isn't good for a guy seen as a receiving TE. If Bill was here he'd be all over the K-State TE with his 3 cone time.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 3, 2024 10:57:29 GMT -5
Seeing him at the combine -- he looks the part, and at age 21. Dude weighed in at a tuned 220. He's a man. LFG! I think age gets downplayed too much. Big difference facing 19 year olds when you're 21 vs 24-25. You do understand Daniels is tied for 2nd oldest QB in top 8 right, at 23 years old? Only Nix at 24 is older, Penix is also 23. If you wanted one worry about McCarthy it would be his 9" hands, smallest of all QBs. |
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Mar 3, 2024 13:18:44 GMT -5
I think age gets downplayed too much. Big difference facing 19 year olds when you're 21 vs 24-25. You do understand Daniels is tied for 2nd oldest QB in top 8 right, at 23 years old? Only Nix at 24 is older, Penix is also 23. If you wanted one worry about McCarthy it would be his 9" hands, smallest of all QBs. Yeah, that's certainly a concern for Daniels. For some reason I did think Penix was older, but it's certainly a reason I'm a bit out on Bo Nix. Assuming Maye and Williams are gone and the team doesn't like Jayden all that much I think my next choice would be JJ McCarthy in a trade down. I like Penix, but the knees scare me a bit. To be fair, Penix is going to be 24 in May, and Daniels 24 in December. Also, JJ McCarthy just turned 21 in January so he has a lot more room to grow and develop so I like the potential upside |
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Post by ematz1423 on Mar 3, 2024 18:23:16 GMT -5
I'm no draft expert, far from it. Half the qbs I thought would be good stunk and half the qbs I thought would stink were good. That being said I think maye will be good and I don't really like Daniels. I think if Williams and maye go 1 and 2 the pats should either take Harrison or trade the pick.
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Post by benogliviesbrother on Mar 3, 2024 18:53:57 GMT -5
Listened to Keyshon Johnson, former Trojan & big program booster, on SiriusXM this morning -- he was wishy washy on Williams, said he'd take JJ over him. Also he suggested Bears keep Fields and build around him.
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Post by philarhody on Mar 3, 2024 23:18:05 GMT -5
I never see Daniels get to a second progression. It’s one read or go. And because it was schemed up and he was playing with a bunch of absolute studs (Nabers’ tape is nuckin futs and BTJ is just a freak show), that first read was usually open.
Maye’s 2023 tape is messy. But his combination of tools and size are unrivaled in this class. The success of other giant sandlot quarterbacks like Roethlisberger, Allen and Herbert lead me to believe he’ll probably figure it out and become a franchise guy in the league. Again, not my favorite archetype, but if you give a professional coaching staff enough athleticism, size and arm, they’ll usually make it work.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 4, 2024 7:30:57 GMT -5
You do understand Daniels is tied for 2nd oldest QB in top 8 right, at 23 years old? Only Nix at 24 is older, Penix is also 23. If you wanted one worry about McCarthy it would be his 9" hands, smallest of all QBs. Yeah, that's certainly a concern for Daniels. For some reason I did think Penix was older, but it's certainly a reason I'm a bit out on Bo Nix. Assuming Maye and Williams are gone and the team doesn't like Jayden all that much I think my next choice would be JJ McCarthy in a trade down. I like Penix, but the knees scare me a bit. To be fair, Penix is going to be 24 in May, and Daniels 24 in December. Also, JJ McCarthy just turned 21 in January so he has a lot more room to grow and develop so I like the potential upside Experience at QB is a plus, it's funny what you see as a negative, I see as a positive. Take Mac Jones, his lack of experience in College is one of the biggest problems he's had in NFL. Trying to deal with crap he's never faced before in NFL is crazy hard. It's why I value 3 years starting experience. Next up is multiple years of doing extremely well. That's where Daniels scares the heck out of me. Frankly he's the player where age, experience and talent might have made him seem much better than he is. Nix and Penix did crazy well for two straight years. They both did better in big games against elite talent. I'm also really big on where players rank end of season, versus riser based off nothing but teams being stupid. QBs rise every draft like Crazy. Anyone close to first round grade gets hyped as possible high pick. QBs only drop on draft day, because the so called experts are crazy and don't actually grade them like teams do. Daniels winning Heisman has people forgetting his weaknesses. McCarthy winning a Championship has people looking at anything positive to try and support a high first round grade. The he didn't do much in a bunch of games, but look at a few 3rd down plays he made each game. Look at his high school record. No mention of four of his weapons balling out for last two years looking way better away from that program than their tape. His #2 WR just had a amazing combine, he looked like a low level possession WR on the tape I watched. His #1 WR stock has gone through the roof from senior bowl to combine. If McCarthy is so good, why does it seem like he makes his weapons look bad, not good? Why didn't that team open things up more against good teams? Everyone has their own way of ranking people and like I've said before I'd draft all seven of my top QBs, it's just where I'd draft them. Nevermind the top of this draft being loaded with elite players at positions of need complicates things. This might be the best WR class in a long time. This draft has maybe the best TE prospect in a long time. |
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Mar 4, 2024 9:27:02 GMT -5
Mike Evans returning to Tampa so that’s off the board
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 4, 2024 13:00:22 GMT -5
If you asked me which QB has the best combo of tools and size in this draft, it's not Maye. That would be Joe Milton. Highly athletic, cannon for an arm and is a monster of a man for a QB. Maye is way better because of his skills, not natural ability and size. I really have no interest in Joe Milton because that cannon lacks timing, accuracy and touch.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Mar 4, 2024 13:31:20 GMT -5
Yeah, that's certainly a concern for Daniels. For some reason I did think Penix was older, but it's certainly a reason I'm a bit out on Bo Nix. Assuming Maye and Williams are gone and the team doesn't like Jayden all that much I think my next choice would be JJ McCarthy in a trade down. I like Penix, but the knees scare me a bit. To be fair, Penix is going to be 24 in May, and Daniels 24 in December. Also, JJ McCarthy just turned 21 in January so he has a lot more room to grow and develop so I like the potential upside Experience at QB is a plus, it's funny what you see as a negative, I see as a positive. Take Mac Jones, his lack of experience in College is one of the biggest problems he's had in NFL. Trying to deal with crap he's never faced before in NFL is crazy hard. It's why I value 3 years starting experience. Next up is multiple years of doing extremely well. That's where Daniels scares the heck out of me. Frankly he's the player where age, experience and talent might have made him seem much better than he is. Nix and Penix did crazy well for two straight years. They both did better in big games against elite talent. I'm also really big on where players rank end of season, versus riser based off nothing but teams being stupid. QBs rise every draft like Crazy. Anyone close to first round grade gets hyped as possible high pick. QBs only drop on draft day, because the so called experts are crazy and don't actually grade them like teams do. Daniels winning Heisman has people forgetting his weaknesses. McCarthy winning a Championship has people looking at anything positive to try and support a high first round grade. The he didn't do much in a bunch of games, but look at a few 3rd down plays he made each game. Look at his high school record. No mention of four of his weapons balling out for last two years looking way better away from that program than their tape. His #2 WR just had a amazing combine, he looked like a low level possession WR on the tape I watched. His #1 WR stock has gone through the roof from senior bowl to combine. If McCarthy is so good, why does it seem like he makes his weapons look bad, not good? Why didn't that team open things up more against good teams? Everyone has their own way of ranking people and like I've said before I'd draft all seven of my top QBs, it's just where I'd draft them. Nevermind the top of this draft being loaded with elite players at positions of need complicates things. This might be the best WR class in a long time. This draft has maybe the best TE prospect in a long time. My theory is that younger probably means more potential and a lower floor whereas the opposite for older guys. I would think it's easier to look good against the field if you have 3-4 years on the competition when guys are still growing like when you look at a prospect coming up through the Red Sox system. It's a lot less impressive when a 24 year old crushes it in A ball vs a 20 year old, but just for fun I went through the top QBs and how old they were when they were drafted. Patrick Mahomes - 22 Josh Allen - 21 Jalen Hurts - 22 Justin Herbert - 22 Joe Burrow - 23 Dak Prescot - 23 Tua Tagovailoa - 22 Trevor Lawrence - 22 CJ Stroud - 22 Lamar Jackson - 21 So it seems like 22 is the sweet spot for a successful QB. Edit: I did this kind of quick. It's possible some of those guys were younger and turned in age for the NFL season. |
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Post by cdj on Mar 4, 2024 14:47:39 GMT -5
If you asked me which QB has the best combo of tools and size in this draft, it's not Maye. That would be Joe Milton. Highly athletic, cannon for an arm and is a monster of a man for a QB. Maye is way better because of his skills, not natural ability and size. I really have no interest in Joe Milton because that cannon lacks timing, accuracy and touch. Give me Bazooka Joe just to have him for Hail Marys |
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Mar 4, 2024 17:33:42 GMT -5
Broncos eating a record 85 million in dead money to have Russell Wilson not play for them.
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Post by pedroelgrande on Mar 4, 2024 18:43:07 GMT -5
That says it all doesn’t it. Lets hope the Pats stay clear, I’m fairly confident this “regime” is not riding with Rus
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