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Post by bosoxnation on Jun 22, 2024 10:36:34 GMT -5
Yeah you're correct he was the 11th pick in the draft because he isn't special. Roman is proven MLB talent. Ok now that we're done with that. Today was his 25th birthday so I felt like I needed to say it one more time. I'm done now. I didnt say your idea was stupid. I said it's not something I'd do. The closest parallel to me is the Hanley/Sanchez for Beckett/Lowell deal. Beckett was well established as a young ace at that point and back then pitchers actually could pitch 200 innings. Crochet is in the era where you're lucky if you get 180 innings and 5 minutes later it's time for TJS. Makes me not want to surrender the premier young talent it takes to get the pitcher. I'd rather see the Sox hang on to the talent and use money to sign a guy like Max Fried or Corbin Burnes or even Roki Sasaki if he becomes a free agent. Sure they're not going to get efficient bang for their buck but they hold onto Anthony, who might be the most talented young outfielder the Sox have developed since God knows when. I mean Anthony right now looks like he can be what Benintendi never turned into and what the hope for Ryan Westmoreland was. Looking at the Sox needs, they need a front line starter or two down the road and they need a RH masher they can stick between Devers and Casas in the lineup. The Sox farm is situated well enough they dint have to chase position players in free agency unless there's a Juan Soto, who will remain in NY most likely, but assuming they dont get Soto, a RH impact bat would be the need and unfortunately there are no Mannys, Cabreras, or Pujols out there, so with nobody out there to target, they might as well spend their money on front line pitching. At this point I'm keeping a close eye on Kristian Campbell's ascent while wondering if he could turn into that RH power bat they could comfortably stuff between Devers and Casas down the road in what looks like a lefty heavy lineup. Of course that's a lot of pressure to place on Campbell and I'm not saying he turns into that, but I'm keeping an eye on him to see if he continues to mash while maintaining enough of his hit tool. So far, so good. But with a lack of RH power hitting (but with a good hit tool) guys out there in the market coming down the pike, I think the Sox are best served saving their money for pitching and letting their young guys develop around them. And the good news is there's enough depth in my opinion to get a solid 2/3 starter down the road. In my opinion once Anthony becomes truly ready, Abreu (as long as Duran is healthy) starts becoming expendable in a deal for pitching down the road. ahhhhhhhhh i see. You think that there's a chance we spend big money in free agency. Yeah I gave up on that idea. We hired bloom to be more like the Rays, Breslow continued that outlook. I think the only way to get an ace would be through a trade. His age just fits the timeline of our studs. He just turned 25 yesterday. If you were on board with throwing 250+ million at Yamamoto then trading for Crochet makes even more sense. Maybe you can even keep the top 3 im just saying he just fits the team and needs way to perfectly to not go hard after him.
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Post by threeifbaerga on Jun 22, 2024 10:40:06 GMT -5
ahhhhhhhhh i see. You think that there's a chance we spend big money in free agency. Yeah I gave up on that idea. We hired bloom to be more like the Rays, Breslow continued that outlook. I think the only way to get an ace would be through a trade. His age just fits the timeline of our studs. He just turned 25 yesterday. If you were on board with throwing 250+ million at Yamamoto then trading for Crochet makes even more sense. Maybe you can even keep the top 3 im just saying he just fits the team and needs way to perfectly to not go hard after him. Did the Dodgers hire Friedman to be more like the Rays? Maybe the Sox hired Bloom to be more like the Dodgers. Just didn't work out. Either way this "The Red Sox want to be the Rays" narrative is old and bad.
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Post by bosoxnation on Jun 22, 2024 10:45:14 GMT -5
ahhhhhhhhh i see. You think that there's a chance we spend big money in free agency. Yeah I gave up on that idea. We hired bloom to be more like the Rays, Breslow continued that outlook. I think the only way to get an ace would be through a trade. His age just fits the timeline of our studs. He just turned 25 yesterday. If you were on board with throwing 250+ million at Yamamoto then trading for Crochet makes even more sense. Maybe you can even keep the top 3 im just saying he just fits the team and needs way to perfectly to not go hard after him. Did the Dodgers hire Friedman to be more like the Rays? Maybe the Sox hired Bloom to be more like the Dodgers. Just didn't work out. Either way this "The Red Sox want to be the Rays" narrative is old and bad. REALLY? Its not a narrative. We don't want to spend money in FA. We want to draft and lock up our home grown talent. Is that what the Dodgers did with Mookie, Freeman, Ohtani, Yamamoto, Glasnow? Nobody said it was a bad thing you just have to hit in the draft and be patient. You build a dynasty that way if you can hit on a few all stars.
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Jun 22, 2024 10:47:43 GMT -5
Did the Dodgers hire Friedman to be more like the Rays? Maybe the Sox hired Bloom to be more like the Dodgers. Just didn't work out. Either way this "The Red Sox want to be the Rays" narrative is old and bad. REALLY? It’s not a narrative. We don't want to spend money in FA. We want to draft and lock up our home grown talent. Is that what the Dodgers did with Mookie, Freeman, Ohtani, Yamamoto, Glasnow? Nobody said it was a bad thing you just have to hit in the draft and be patient. You build a dynasty that way if you can hit on a few all stars. If your barometer is the Dodgers, there are like 25+ teams that “don’t want to spend money”. Dumb narrative.
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Post by threeifbaerga on Jun 22, 2024 11:09:26 GMT -5
Did the Dodgers hire Friedman to be more like the Rays? Maybe the Sox hired Bloom to be more like the Dodgers. Just didn't work out. Either way this "The Red Sox want to be the Rays" narrative is old and bad. REALLY? Its not a narrative. We don't want to spend money in FA. We want to draft and lock up our home grown talent. Is that what the Dodgers did with Mookie, Freeman, Ohtani, Yamamoto, Glasnow? Nobody said it was a bad thing you just have to hit in the draft and be patient. You build a dynasty that way if you can hit on a few all stars. The thing I think you're missing is context. The Dodgers added all those players while their championship window was open. All of the players listed were acquired after they reached the World Series in '18. For the Red Sox, they have to rebuild and retool their roster to get to that point before they should start adding top level, expensive talent. Jordan Montgomery and Teoscar Hernandez were not going to turn this team into one of the top 2-3 in the AL. You don't want to add free agents just for the hell of it, that's the most expensive way to acquire talent. If you can't see the difference in context (both in terms of their potential championship window and the free agents actually available to them) then I can't really help.
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Post by scottysmalls on Jun 22, 2024 12:02:25 GMT -5
People keep bringing up the idea of a RH power hitter and I want to push back that that would make sense, even if there was one available.
With Duran an every day player you can only play two of O’Neill/Abreu/Refsnyder/Yoshida on a given day. Which RH power hitter outside of the very elite guys in baseball would be both better than one of those platoons and worth the cost to upgrade on it?
You’re not going to bench Casas or Devers for a righty 1B/3B. I guess you could argue that you could move Rafaela to short stop and bench one of Hamilton or Valdez but then you’re also downgrading defensively at three positions.
They’re 12th in the league in wRC+ with a 104 against both righties and lefties.
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Jun 22, 2024 12:20:14 GMT -5
I don’t really see the Red Sox as buyers outside of a bargain rental SP. I don’t see them trading any meaningful prospect and I think they’ll prioritize getting the younger position players their reps so I doubt they crowd the position player pool.
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Post by bosoxnation on Jun 22, 2024 12:34:05 GMT -5
REALLY? Its not a narrative. We don't want to spend money in FA. We want to draft and lock up our home grown talent. Is that what the Dodgers did with Mookie, Freeman, Ohtani, Yamamoto, Glasnow? Nobody said it was a bad thing you just have to hit in the draft and be patient. You build a dynasty that way if you can hit on a few all stars. The thing I think you're missing is context. The Dodgers added all those players while their championship window was open. All of the players listed were acquired after they reached the World Series in '18. For the Red Sox, they have to rebuild and retool their roster to get to that point before they should start adding top level, expensive talent. Jordan Montgomery and Teoscar Hernandez were not going to turn this team into one of the top 2-3 in the AL. You don't want to add free agents just for the hell of it, that's the most expensive way to acquire talent. If you can't see the difference in context (both in terms of their potential championship window and the free agents actually available to them) then I can't really help. A RH power hitter and LH Ace is acutally excatly what we need. Being top 3 in the AL means nothing wild card wins all the time. You add Monty and replace Yoshida with Hernandez and you don't think this team could get hot and win it? Yeah that was more insane then comparing the Dodgers who have signed hall of famers to the team who hasnt signed all stars. Im just hoping we trade for Crochet or I don't want anyone else. LH SP is the only need that makes sense long term.
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asm18
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Post by asm18 on Jun 22, 2024 12:35:26 GMT -5
Per the Marlins premier beat writer:
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Post by threeifbaerga on Jun 22, 2024 12:48:31 GMT -5
The thing I think you're missing is context. The Dodgers added all those players while their championship window was open. All of the players listed were acquired after they reached the World Series in '18. For the Red Sox, they have to rebuild and retool their roster to get to that point before they should start adding top level, expensive talent. Jordan Montgomery and Teoscar Hernandez were not going to turn this team into one of the top 2-3 in the AL. You don't want to add free agents just for the hell of it, that's the most expensive way to acquire talent. If you can't see the difference in context (both in terms of their potential championship window and the free agents actually available to them) then I can't really help. A RH power hitter and LH Ace is acutally excatly what we need. Being top 3 in the AL means nothing wild card wins all the time. You add Monty and replace Yoshida with Hernandez and you don't think this team could get hot and win it? Yeah that was more insane then comparing the Dodgers who have signed hall of famers to the team who hasnt signed all stars. Im just hoping we trade for Crochet or I don't want anyone else. LH SP is the only need that makes sense long term. Youd be replacing O'Neill with Hernandez, not Yoshida, and he has had almost the exact same year (injury notwithstanding). And Montgomery has been worth -0.8 bWAR and 0.4 fWAR.
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Post by keninten on Jun 22, 2024 12:59:59 GMT -5
What about Mason Miller? I`d hate to give up what he might cost because he`s a pitcher. Anthony could headline a package with Yorke, Blaze and Winck. If not what would he fetch? If it`s 2 of the top 3 forget about it. Hamilton might have some good value too. Haven`t seen any rumors what any other teams might offer. Like the player, no way I'd give up that much. Take Anthony out of the package and replace Winck with someone like Weissert and I could see how that makes sense. Not sure if Yorke/Blaze/Weissert gets it done, but I think any more would be too much for a reliever. Here`s where I think I went wrong. For some reason and I can`t find it. I thought he was in the BP for just this year.
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Post by rickasadoorian on Jun 22, 2024 13:49:03 GMT -5
Mayer, Anthony, Teel may struggle for a year or two getting established. At some point, they do have to start the process. There's an argument that struggling in MLB for a year is better than excelling in AAA. While I don't agree with trading players away to make room for prospects, I do agree that sometimes people are too worried about "rushing" prospects. I don't believe the Sox would rush a prospect just for the sake of rushing. People use the rush argument all the time. They did with Casas last year. With Devers, with Betts, with Xander.
I don't think it's completely unreasonable to expect Anthony to get significant playing time in Boston next year. If he gets 200+ PA in AAA this year and excels, I'd say there's like a 1-5% chance he starts the season on the MLB roster. Basically, it isn't something you plan 2025 around but if it happens... awesome. Anthony would have to force the issue. Yoshida would be the odd guy out, though. I think the front office is smart enough to understand the concept of sunk cost.
As for trading guys like Valdez and Hamilton... how much value do they actually have? They may very well be bench players. It's not like they have established themselves as regulars. While I don't think Valdez would have much value on this team as a bench player, Hamilton could potentially be very valuable. I wouldn't be opposed to trading them in the right deal, though. If a team buys into the concept of Hamilton being a 3-4 WAR player, sell high. If not, there's still a pretty big role for him here.
As for trading Duran and Abreu... I can see the reasoning behind it. I would NOT trade Duran though, barring some other team offering a ridiculous haul. Something like Gunnar for Mayer and Duran. Trades that aren't going to happen. Duran is on a 8.3 WAR pace this season. He's already at 3.9. He is cost controlled and is coming off a pretty good season last year. He should be pretty much untouchable.
I probably wouldn't be looking to trade Abreu either. With him, it's a bit more projection but during his brief time in the Majors, he's been an above average hitter and fielder. He has had some good BAbip luck though, and that's coupled with a below average LD%. Everything else looks pretty good though.
No one should be completely untradable, but Valdez and Hamilton are the guys you shop around. Duran and Abreu are the guys other teams ask for. There's a reason for that.
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Post by bishop on Jun 22, 2024 14:37:19 GMT -5
With the success of Houck and other starters after changing the pitch mix and shapes I'd be more interested in finding a 2nd tier guy they think can be improved than paying top of the market for a Crochet who still scares me injury risk wise more than normal starters and who I don't think would be available short of sending one of the big 3 prospects.
Still think it makes sense to move Abreu or mayyyyybe Duran or Anthony if you think their value is very inflated to your future projection of their production, but also think that's a offseason possibility not a trade deadline thing. Pitching's been our biggest strength and we have maybe 6 good batters who should be in the lineup every day once Casas is back (Duran, Abreu, Devers, O'Neill, Wong - enjoying Hamilton and Refsnyder, think Yoshida and Grissom will eventually come around but don't trust any of those), trading one of those for more pitching doesn't make any sense this season.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jun 22, 2024 15:44:08 GMT -5
I didnt say your idea was stupid. I said it's not something I'd do. The closest parallel to me is the Hanley/Sanchez for Beckett/Lowell deal. Beckett was well established as a young ace at that point and back then pitchers actually could pitch 200 innings. Crochet is in the era where you're lucky if you get 180 innings and 5 minutes later it's time for TJS. Makes me not want to surrender the premier young talent it takes to get the pitcher. I'd rather see the Sox hang on to the talent and use money to sign a guy like Max Fried or Corbin Burnes or even Roki Sasaki if he becomes a free agent. Sure they're not going to get efficient bang for their buck but they hold onto Anthony, who might be the most talented young outfielder the Sox have developed since God knows when. I mean Anthony right now looks like he can be what Benintendi never turned into and what the hope for Ryan Westmoreland was. Looking at the Sox needs, they need a front line starter or two down the road and they need a RH masher they can stick between Devers and Casas in the lineup. The Sox farm is situated well enough they dint have to chase position players in free agency unless there's a Juan Soto, who will remain in NY most likely, but assuming they dont get Soto, a RH impact bat would be the need and unfortunately there are no Mannys, Cabreras, or Pujols out there, so with nobody out there to target, they might as well spend their money on front line pitching. At this point I'm keeping a close eye on Kristian Campbell's ascent while wondering if he could turn into that RH power bat they could comfortably stuff between Devers and Casas down the road in what looks like a lefty heavy lineup. Of course that's a lot of pressure to place on Campbell and I'm not saying he turns into that, but I'm keeping an eye on him to see if he continues to mash while maintaining enough of his hit tool. So far, so good. But with a lack of RH power hitting (but with a good hit tool) guys out there in the market coming down the pike, I think the Sox are best served saving their money for pitching and letting their young guys develop around them. And the good news is there's enough depth in my opinion to get a solid 2/3 starter down the road. In my opinion once Anthony becomes truly ready, Abreu (as long as Duran is healthy) starts becoming expendable in a deal for pitching down the road. ahhhhhhhhh i see. You think that there's a chance we spend big money in free agency. Yeah I gave up on that idea. We hired bloom to be more like the Rays, Breslow continued that outlook. I think the only way to get an ace would be through a trade. His age just fits the timeline of our studs. He just turned 25 yesterday. If you were on board with throwing 250+ million at Yamamoto then trading for Crochet makes even more sense. Maybe you can even keep the top 3 im just saying he just fits the team and needs way to perfectly to not go hard after him. Lol, you dont have a ton of faith that they will spend big bucks in free agency you say? Gee, why would you ever get that idea, lol. I dont have a lot of faith theyd win a bidding war against the Didgers, Mets, or Yankees...or A's, just kidding, but at some point logic would dictate that theyll bring in some front line talent and absent a premier RH slugger on the market or Soto, I'd think pitching is the only area left theyd spend their money on if they're going to spend money. They have a lot of cheap young regulars, which is a good thing, an overabundance. I say keep the best of the kids, trade some of the excess for somebody who could be a 2 or good 3 and sign an ace to stack with Houck as it looks like Crawford and Bello are good 3/4 starters who would be major assets as 4/5 starters assuming an ace is signed and a guy who could slot in in the middle between signed ace plus Houck and then Crawford plus Bello.
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Post by soxinsf on Jun 22, 2024 17:05:53 GMT -5
REALISTIC/OPTIMISTIC EXPECTATIONS
—Sox stay in solid playoff contention past July 15 and do not become net sellers. —Somehow, somewhere there will be LHSP and RH power that they will pursue. But the FO isn’t giving away the house. —The size of the risk they will take depends on where things stand after the AS game. —Keep Duran. He is playing at the margins of All-Star baseball and he creates excitement.
All of that reads as “be patient “. No need to rush short-term deals.
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Post by scottysmalls on Jun 22, 2024 18:11:06 GMT -5
Everyone who wants a RH power hitter tell me which one is a) available, b) better than a platoon of Yoshida and Refsnyder and c) worth trading what it would acquire to get him
This person does not exist
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Post by gregblossersbelly on Jun 22, 2024 18:21:39 GMT -5
Everyone who wants a RH power hitter tell me which one is a) available, b) better than a platoon of Yoshida and Refsnyder and c) worth trading what it would acquire to get him This person does not exist I think Justin Turner would help. Platoon Ref with Abreu and TON in LF. Ceddanne at SS with Hamilton at 2b. Turner would DH. Could probably get him for nothing very soon. As long as we pay him rest of year. Masa is my 13th guy. Unless we can ship him out.
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Post by scottysmalls on Jun 22, 2024 18:33:37 GMT -5
Everyone who wants a RH power hitter tell me which one is a) available, b) better than a platoon of Yoshida and Refsnyder and c) worth trading what it would acquire to get him This person does not exist I think Justin Turner would help. Platoon Ref with Abreu and TON in LF. Ceddanne at SS with Hamilton at 2b. Turner would DH. Could probably get him for nothing very soon. As long as we pay him rest of year. Masa is my 13th guy. Unless we can ship him out. So Turner takes whose place on the roster? It has to be Valdez or Gonzalez in the scenario you described I think and I’m not convinced that makes the team any better
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Post by bettsonmookie on Jun 22, 2024 19:15:40 GMT -5
Grissom for Chris Sale. Who says no?
Seriously though. Sometimes the best trades are the ones you don’t make.
Put Sale and a healthy Casas on this team, and they have the framework to make a run at it.
Hendriks should enhance the bullpen later on and a youthful injection of energy could be on the horizon via Kyle Teel.
Jack Flaherty would be a nice addition but I don’t think Breslow targets a rental.
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Post by oleary25 on Jun 22, 2024 20:14:25 GMT -5
He fits this RedSox team seemlessly.He could start until Casas gets back the rotate in the field at 3B and 1B to take some of the load off returning Casas and let Devers play the field less which would be huge plus DH.
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Post by ematz1423 on Jun 23, 2024 5:17:08 GMT -5
Everyone who wants a RH power hitter tell me which one is a) available, b) better than a platoon of Yoshida and Refsnyder and c) worth trading what it would acquire to get him This person does not exist I took a look at fangraphs wRC+ listings for RHH. I knew it was pretty slim pickings before checking and it's even worse than I thought. You're correct it basically doesn't exist. Not one that would actually be available anyway.
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kwodes
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Post by kwodes on Jun 23, 2024 6:16:26 GMT -5
Everyone who wants a RH power hitter tell me which one is a) available, b) better than a platoon of Yoshida and Refsnyder and c) worth trading what it would acquire to get him This person does not exist I took a look at fangraphs wRC+ listings for RHH. I knew it was pretty slim pickings before checking and it's even worse than I thought. You're correct it basically doesn't exist. Not one that would actually be available anyway. yea, it's bad. IMO, best way to upgrade the roster is a SP
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Post by awalkinthepark on Jun 23, 2024 6:31:10 GMT -5
Everyone who wants a RH power hitter tell me which one is a) available, b) better than a platoon of Yoshida and Refsnyder and c) worth trading what it would acquire to get him This person does not exist This is where I'm at too. In the offseason I was on the train that this team desperately needed a right handed power bat, but I don't think that makes sense on a team where Duran and Rafaela are getting regular playing time. I look at this team and it just seems pretty set on the position player side, unless Breslow decides to move on from Masa. Casas and Grissom will be back soon. It's really just Story the team is missing, but I'm not sure there is anyone available who is a significant upgrade over Hamilton/Rafaela. Only thing they could use is a lefty stud in the rotation. I'd love to see Breslow flip Kenley or Chris Martin for some toolsy young arm, like what the Royals did with Cole Ragans last year. Might be wishful thinking though.
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Post by scottysmalls on Jun 23, 2024 8:16:27 GMT -5
Everyone who wants a RH power hitter tell me which one is a) available, b) better than a platoon of Yoshida and Refsnyder and c) worth trading what it would acquire to get him This person does not exist This is where I'm at too. In the offseason I was on the train that this team desperately needed a right handed power bat, but I don't think that makes sense on a team where Duran and Rafaela are getting regular playing time. I look at this team and it just seems pretty set on the position player side, unless Breslow decides to move on from Masa. Casas and Grissom will be back soon. It's really just Story the team is missing, but I'm not sure there is anyone available who is a significant upgrade over Hamilton/Rafaela. Only thing they could use is a lefty stud in the rotation. I'd love to see Breslow flip Kenley or Chris Martin for some toolsy young arm, like what the Royals did with Cole Ragans last year. Might be wishful thinking though. Yeah the last paragraph here is what I’m hoping they go for too. Not sure if they’ll be able to find a Ragans level guy but if they can identify someone between that level and Criswell that would be big. Lot of teams with 40 man crunches coming up, maybe there’s an arm that Breslow & co believe in more than the player’s current org does.
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Post by gregblossersbelly on Jun 23, 2024 8:31:03 GMT -5
Grissom for Chris Sale. Who says no? Seriously though. Sometimes the best trades are the ones you don’t make. Put Sale and a healthy Casas on this team, and they have the framework to make a run at it. Hendriks should enhance the bullpen later on and a youthful injection of energy could be on the horizon via Kyle Teel. Jack Flaherty would be a nice addition but I don’t think Breslow targets a rental. I think Eflin will be our target. Have him for another year. We already tried to sign him last year. Won’t cost us elite prospects. TB is going nowhere. Stadium will be a morgue. Zach might get an energy boost coming to a playoff chase.
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