Netflix: The Comeback 2004 Red Sox

Haven't watched yet but listened to the Section 10 episode with Colin Barnicle (the director), which was a great listen. As far as missing people, apparently Bellhorn legit just doesn't talk and doesn't come back to any of the reunions they've had, etc. Millar has apparently joked that Bellhorn says 1 word a month or something.

He actually had an anecdote on there I hadn't heard that Fox tried to set up one of those NFL cameras that's tethered to the top of the stadium between the two foul poles the day of game 1 if the WS, and they almost tore the Pesky Pole down 2 hours before the game. It was apparently bent at a 45 degree angle.

Very funny, entertaining interview.

The compensation used to be lose one pick if you sign a free agent but get two picks if you lose one. Theo gamed the system after 2004 if you look at that 2005 draft.

I remember Lowe complaining that Boston never contacted him after offering him arb because Theo wanted the two draft picks.

I find it insane you used to be able to trade for a guy at the deadline who was a looming free agent and still get draft pick compensation.

Jacoby Ellsbury and Jed Lowrie were the result of Orlando Cabrera.

I get why they don’t do that anymore, but trade deadlines back then were much more……tradey.

Just watched this and as someone who was a child in ‘04 just did not really realize a lot of this. The extent of the Nomar drama in particular stood out. Also Theo called an individual a “Red Sock” rather than a “Red Sox” which I’m surprised hasn’t been called out here yet

Re; Grady, yeah maybe they should be over it, but also if I put myself in Theo’s shoes he probably had told Grady not to let Pedro throw that many pitches (whether or not he knew it was 3tto yet), and probably had been asking to replace him for his inability to accept analytics for a while, and probably still feels like they would have won in ‘03 had he been allowed a different manager or had Little listened, and for a super competitive guy at a time that was super emotionally charged it probably would still be frustrating to think about.

Kudos to Grady though for taking part

From what I remember of the topic Theo was kind of caught in the middle.

Ownership installed Grady Little as manager to kind of appease the players who were very unhappy with Dan Duquette firing Jimy Williams in August 2001 and then replacing him with pitching coach Joe Kerrigan, whom the players despised.

There was a very unhappy dour clubhouse Henry and Company inherited when they bought the team in Dec 2001.

Grady Little had been a coach under Jimy Williams and the players loved him, so new ownership scored instant points with the players.

Problem is they discovered he ran counter to the new age way they wanted to run the organization.

Theo became GM in the 2002-03 offseason and inherited Grady Little. He liked Little personally but sided with his bosses.

I think he tried to influence Grady to look at the stats to help him keep his job but Grady rejected the stat work.

Ownership was very disenchanted with Little by June 2003 and Henry wanted to fire him then. And that feeling grew as the season progressed.

Eventually they got the smoking gun they needed to fire Grady Little, although I truly believe Henry wanted to fire him in the 8th inning Game 7 ALCS. As an aside, it was fantastic when Henry was truly engaged with running the Sox.

Theo found the perfect combo of a players manager, like Grady, that had some modern tech savvy, although in retrospect I think Francona was probably more old school than they let on, as Francona left Pedro in too long in a game against the Yankees in Sept 2004 where Pedro lost the lead in the 8th inning, and was calling the Yankees his daddy after the game. Worse, he left Pedro in too long in Game 5, where he was losing it, gave up a 3 run double to Jeter to fall behind and needed a great Trot Nixon catch to keep the deficit at 4-2, rather than 7-2. Francona got away with the non-move.

That said, Francona made a lot of right decisions that post season and he became the ultimate players managers as he did a fantastic job managing those big personalities. Francona truly was and still is a fantastic manager.

As I recall (memory of course being very fallible), Little did that kind of thing all year long. Old-timey baseball stuff that had since been pushed against if not debunked. I remember that being one of my first experiences with pushing against an oversimplified narrative - that he was fired because he didn't take Pedro out of that specific game like it was the only time something like that had happened.

Fwiw nobody made Little do the interview. Colin Barnicle, IIRC, said he thought Little might say no when they asked him. But at any rate, the team didn't make this - it's Barnicle and Netflix. You can't truly tell the story of the 04 team well without 2003, which means you have to talk about Grady Little.

As I said above, the first person stuff is the best. That includes honest assessments of what people were feeling and saying at that time. That includes Theo Epstein and John Henry. The latter's talk about asking if he could fire Little on the spot was an inside joke at the time for his partner, while Epstein's take on what happened was just about as frustrated. I remember my own reaction, I walked away from viewing what came next since the mistake was obvious to me. There was no way Martinez should have still been on the mound. I wasn't surprised at the result and it had me shaking my head. Little's had a while to think about it and to his credit he was willing to sit and talk to the camera. I'll bet he understood what the frame would look like.

One thing they left out, maybe because it had been covered before: no interview with Timlim on Pedro being left in. If I remember correctly there was a great shot of Timlin in the bullpen with his arms on the wall looking on in amazement as Pedro continued to pitch.
Unless I dreamed that!