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Long-term CBT considerations on 2025 roster planning
ematz1423
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Post by ematz1423 on Oct 30, 2024 11:09:51 GMT -5
Insofar as we are discussing "Long-term CBT considerations on 2025 roster planning", how many free agents out there are going to be potentially relevant to that? www.fangraphs.com/roster-resource/free-agent-trackerShort of Soto, Burnes, Fried and maybe a handful of others, I don't know that anybody they sign is going to dramatically alter their payroll outlook (on their own at least) that would make them have to wrestle with the CBT question. So perhaps the better question is do we think they meaningfully engage with those guys? Burnes, fried and to a lesser extent Snell and Flaherty being large dollar deals I think yes they'll engage with those guys. Soto I don't really see it happening but who knows.
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Post by incandenza on Oct 30, 2024 11:55:02 GMT -5
Here's a quote from Alex Speier's still-ongoing reddit AMA: My speculative theory has been that this rebuild basically took about a year longer than anticipated (and than promised by Bloom, perhaps) and they got impatient, fired Bloom, and lowered payroll for 2024. But they were ignoring the fact that a bunch of young talent was already emerging in 2023 - there were really good vibes about that just before the trade deadline/late season collapse/Bloom firing! If they hadn't pulled back in 2024 maybe they keep Sale, sign another starter, and make the playoffs.
Anyway, so much for the past... This comment from Speier also seems like a pretty bullish sign to me about their willingness to go over the LTT this offseason.
ADD: More from Speier: And even more to the point:
And more:
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Post by sxfan on Oct 30, 2024 12:09:26 GMT -5
Okay not 100 percent evidence (you can never be too sure), but I'll provide what I can. -Tom Werner's acknowledgement to the Price contract being a risk. That's something to point out that 99 percent of the time, they don't do it. But right place, right time to do it with a new GM with a extensive reputation. -The lack of a known counteroffer when the Sox offered 300 million for 10 years, when Mookie countered 12 years for 420. -Almost the same exact offer was offered for Devers as was for Mookie 2 years later. -Adrian Gonzalez/Carl Crawford being the last 2 players that got more than 6 years the past 15 years. They dumped their contracts as soon as the Dodgers offered. -This goes way back in time, but the Manny Ramirez contract was a big deterrent to the Sox at the time for the ownership group. Despite him outperforming that contract. They put him on waivers 2 or 3 times hoping someone would just take the contract. -They tried for the A-Rod contract at one point, but the main figures rejected the notion because the Sox ownership wanted A-Rod to take a huge pay cut to come to Boston. So:
- they gave Manny Ramirez a mega-deal - they gave Carl Crawford a mega-deal - they gave Adrian Gonzalez a mega-deal - they got AlexRod to agree to a mega-deal - they gave Price a mega-deal - they offered Mookie a mega-deal - they gave Devers a mega-deal
...and this is your evidence that they have followed a rule for 25 years of not giving out mega-deals?
Won't go into the Manny aspect, since Champs covered that. They didn't agree to A-Rod to come here. They wanted him on their terms. I'll just say that while you acknowledge that yes they did signed those players (which is fair), they shortly dumped them soon thereafter because again the rule or philosophy. Long term contracts are bad for the franchise according to this ownership group. There's also a gray area we both aren't acknowledging. What is a long term deal versus a mega deal? Long term deals (generally 5-7 years), mega deals (9+ years). You're talking about the difference of star core type players and franchise type players. Guys like Mookie, Stanton, Trout, Witt Jr, Tatis Jr, Ohtani, Judge. There's a different class for those type of players. Whether we agree on that is another thing. The Sox are in that 5-7 year range a lot as their max offers.
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asm18
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Post by asm18 on Oct 30, 2024 12:20:46 GMT -5
Alex Speier on the Reddit AMA: "-Largest contract the Sox hand out this offseason.... Whew. Lotta variables. But the team's urgency is such that I'd expect there to be a $100M+ deal this winter." Jack Flaherty you are a Boston Red Sox!
I believe them that they're willing to be more "aggressive." But they've had some weird assessments of contracts the last few years though: Yoshida's deal, offering Imanaga 2/$26M, apparently thinking Yamamoto's price would be lower. Julian McWilliams had an anecdote right after Chaim got fired about negotiating with Kevin Gausman and Chaim earnestly offering something that the agent had to be like, "Where are you getting your numbers from?" If they end up surprised at how much some of these guys this free agency cost this time around, that's a red flag.
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briam
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Post by briam on Oct 30, 2024 12:28:38 GMT -5
That Speier AMA is really good. He says that they weren’t particularly close on YY and the bidding vastly exceeded their expectations. Explains why they Sox offer never leaked.
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Post by incandenza on Oct 30, 2024 12:31:51 GMT -5
So:
- they gave Manny Ramirez a mega-deal - they gave Carl Crawford a mega-deal - they gave Adrian Gonzalez a mega-deal - they got AlexRod to agree to a mega-deal - they gave Price a mega-deal - they offered Mookie a mega-deal - they gave Devers a mega-deal
...and this is your evidence that they have followed a rule for 25 years of not giving out mega-deals?
Won't go into the Manny aspect, since Champs covered that. They didn't agree to A-Rod to come here. They wanted him on their terms. I'll just say that while you acknowledge that yes they did signed those players (which is fair), they shortly dumped them soon thereafter because again the rule or philosophy. Long term contracts are bad for the franchise according to this ownership group. There's also a gray area we both aren't acknowledging. What is a long term deal versus a mega deal? Long term deals (generally 5-7 years), mega deals (9+ years). You're talking about the difference of star core type players and franchise type players. Guys like Mookie, Stanton, Trout, Witt Jr, Tatis Jr, Ohtani, Judge. There's a different class for those type of players. Whether we agree on that is another thing. The Sox are in that 5-7 year range a lot as their max offers. If we're now defining a mega-deal as any very long (9+ year) contract, there have only been about 16 mega-deals given out this century (not counting extensions for very young players like Witt and Julio Rodriguez). And one of them was the Red Sox with Devers. Only the Dodgers, Yankees, Phillies, Padres, and Rangers have given out more than one.
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Oct 30, 2024 12:33:35 GMT -5
So:
- they gave Manny Ramirez a mega-deal - they gave Carl Crawford a mega-deal - they gave Adrian Gonzalez a mega-deal - they got AlexRod to agree to a mega-deal - they gave Price a mega-deal - they offered Mookie a mega-deal - they gave Devers a mega-deal
...and this is your evidence that they have followed a rule for 25 years of not giving out mega-deals?
Won't go into the Manny aspect, since Champs covered that. They didn't agree to A-Rod to come here. They wanted him on their terms. I'll just say that while you acknowledge that yes they did signed those players (which is fair), they shortly dumped them soon thereafter because again the rule or philosophy. Long term contracts are bad for the franchise according to this ownership group. There's also a gray area we both aren't acknowledging. What is a long term deal versus a mega deal? Long term deals (generally 5-7 years), mega deals (9+ years). You're talking about the difference of star core type players and franchise type players. Guys like Mookie, Stanton, Trout, Witt Jr, Tatis Jr, Ohtani, Judge. There's a different class for those type of players. Whether we agree on that is another thing. The Sox are in that 5-7 year range a lot as their max offers. The bolded doesn't make sense at all. If they supposedly had that rule/philosophy, why would they sign the contract in the first place? What would getting off the contract early gain them? They got off of those deals because they weren't good deals at the time (Mookie excluded), which if anything validates this imaginary rule that you have made up.
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Post by abrinker on Oct 30, 2024 13:29:41 GMT -5
I think it's safe to say Henry has tried to do as minimal as possible while still attempting to keep some soft of interest. The Baltimore Orioles spent years with a payroll that was very close to 100% minimum salaries. Then they had a winning record with a very young team and supported them with a...$64 million payroll the next year. That team won 100 games and they supported that with a payroll over $100 million shy of the luxury tax. That is doing the minimum. The Red Sox are no longer keeping up with the teams in the tier 1 media markets and are acting in a manner typical to the other teams in the second tier markets. Better get used to itThe stark reality is they're not a "Tier 1" media market. Consider: Boston's market size is 4.9M, ranked 15th in the MLB. This is the key measure that constitutes media market size, along with population of outlying / regional areas. The NY teams enjoy a massive market size advantage (19.5M+), followed by the LA (12.8+) and Chicago (9.3+) clubs. In the traditional media revenue model, media providers' revenue are driven by the number of subscribers x a per-subscriber fee. For example, let's say NY's distribution providers (e.g., Spectrum, Optimum, etc) have a combined subscriber base of 6M. YES network negotiates a fee of $6/subscriber/month. That would add up to $360M (from which they would distribute x% to Nets and Liberty, as well as to YES investors -- NYY only owns 20%). Without question, there are more subscribers "paying" for channels carrying YES, SNY, SportsNet LA, Marquee Sports than are paying for NESN. So BOS is NOT a tier 1 media market. It's probably closer to middle of the pack. But let's reconcile to revenue: Per Forbes' (granted, they're estimates, but I imagine they invest considerable time and effort in developing a methodology that paints a directionally accurate picture), the Sox revenue in 2023 was $500M, 4th in MLB overall, trailing NYY ($679M), LAD ($549M), and CHC ($506M). Based on that, we might say they're competitive with the tops teams, but let's dive under the hood. TV revenue makes up the largest component of team revenue, and BOS comes in 8th place at $188M (local media rights of $97M + national TV revenue of $91M, evenly allocated to all teams) and in household viewership. Teams ranked 1-7 include: LAD ($287M), NYY ($234M), PHI ($214M), LAA ($203M), ATL/SEA (both at $191M), and CHC ($190M). To put into perspective, the difference in TV revenue between BOS and NYY is more than the difference between BOS and OAK. Next largest revenue item for most teams comes from gate receipts, and BOS ranks 4th at $186M, trailing NYY ($284M), HOU ($232M), LAD ($211M), and CHC ($194M), but there's some needed context here, as well. BOS attendance ranked 10th overall (88% of capacity), but the avg ticket price ranked 3rd highest at $70, behind NYY ($84) and HOU ($76). Fenway has the fifth smallest capacity of all MLB parks, so room to grow gate revenue appreciably relies on pricing, though maximizing the number of butts in those few seats could add, at most, another $20M. Back to TV revenue (and here's the biggest issue of all, IMO): 20/30 teams get local media rights revenue from contracts with RSN's. The remainder (co-)own their own TV platform (e.g., SOX - NESN, NYY - YES, etc). The RSN model offers fixed contracted revenue to the team, with the RSN looking to leverage higher margins through their own operating effectiveness. This provides relative cash flow certainty through the horizon of the contract (except in the case of situations like Diamond bankruptcy). The latter model appeals to some owners since they believe they can shelter a portion of their property's revenue from revenue sharing obligations, but this orientation is subject to downside risk, too. Here's the rub and how it affects BOS long-term: It would appear, as evidenced by Diamond bankruptcy and publicly available information due to bankruptcy court filings, that actual RSN revenues have substantially underperformed market expectations that were the basis of the RSN contract valuations; hence, bankruptcy-driven renegotiations. This surely isn't isolated to the Diamond markets. Macro factors, such as cord cutting and emergence of competitive alternatives (e.g., streaming platforms), have impacted revenue and profitability of the traditional TV channel. This has to be affecting owned platforms, too. Thus, seduced by the upside potential of owning media distribution, teams that are more vertically integrated are paying for not having a fixed contract they can rely on. Conversely, LAD secured an $8.35B contract with Time Warner Cable* (now Spectrum) over 25 years. Unless Spectrum goes the way of Diamond and files for bankruptcy, they're on the hook for that over the remaining 14 years of that deal. $8.35B averaged over 25 years comes to $340M annually, but LAD only received $196M in 2023, suggesting that the revenue schedule is backloaded (which make sense), so fees are set to escalate all the way through 2038. Revenue sharing rules stipulate that 48% of local revenue is aggregated and then evenly shared among all teams, so LAD is not likely to get all of that, but the enormity of that contract, and the escalating fee schedule ensure that LAD will have a guaranteed revenue stream that is so much higher than every other team, and is relatively sheltered from the economic factors that are affecting all other teams. This is why LAD can keep spending massive sums of money, and why the likes of BOS can't compete. I feel like the binary designation of large market - small market is just a lazy one. In reality, LAD is in a tier by themselves, followed by NYY alone in the next tier. Then you have a tier for NYM and LAA (based purely on market size), followed by the tier that includes BOS, along with clubs like PHI, ATL, HOU, SEA, CHC, etc. In my mind, those are the peers BOS is likely to compare to from a payroll perspective. PHI, ATL, and HOU are all above BOS today, but these things tend to swing back and forth. I just think we need to move away from the notion that we are just as mighty as the upper-echelon spending clubs. We just aren't. Not to say we can't or shouldn't spend more than we are, but consistently staying, say 10% above the CBT is just not what teams in a similar revenue outlook position to us tend to do. Just trying to be realistic, rather than emotional. John Henry, after all, is a disciplined investor, not an irrationally emotional one.
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Post by incandenza on Oct 30, 2024 13:31:59 GMT -5
Oh boy - time to fire up the Mookie trade debate! More from Speier:
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asm18
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Post by asm18 on Oct 30, 2024 13:50:19 GMT -5
Oh boy - time to fire up the Mookie trade debate! More from Speier:
I recall arguments at the time was the worst thing thing they could have done was just hedge (neither extend him or trade him, but just hold on to him and hope for the best, which is honestly where I was) and end up letting him walk for just a QO pick. And so of course 1) a pandemic happens a month later that ends up lowering his asking price, and 2) the Red Sox best draft picks through pure sheer luck have their players drafted with qualifying offer compensation (hello Roman, Christian)
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Post by trotnixon7 on Oct 30, 2024 14:09:48 GMT -5
Are you so dense to think public perception can't help drive a decision when it's the fans that put money in their pockets? I think it's safe to say Henry has tried to do as minimal as possible while still attempting to keep some soft of interest..but while saying that, he knew losing all 3 home grown star kids would have caused for a bit of an uproar. You're contradicting yourself there. Perception does not matter at all, it's when fans stop spending the money that ownership listens. But that hasn't really happened yet. It's completely irrational to think that an ownership group would make a $300+ million dollar decision because of angry comments on Twitter. I don't think henry is obsessing over the random tweet but I think hes aware of the general mood (huge reason hes distanced himself in terms of public appearences , hes aware its not great) and realized he had to at least throw the fans a bone. I don't think most owners like getting absolutely blasted by fans/media etc.. So yes, I do think the fall out with betts/lesser extent XB etc kinda forced Henry's hand to an extent. I don't think henry cares all that much about winning WS anymore but he does want enough interest/enough competitive baseball in the summer months. Throwing the fan base the bone sorta alleviated the disdain SOME.
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Post by iakovos11 on Oct 30, 2024 14:14:53 GMT -5
I think he cares very much about winning another WS.
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Post by itinerantherb on Oct 30, 2024 14:38:56 GMT -5
abrinker, thanks for the revenue explainer. That helps a lot.
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Post by sxfan on Oct 30, 2024 15:04:31 GMT -5
Won't go into the Manny aspect, since Champs covered that. They didn't agree to A-Rod to come here. They wanted him on their terms. I'll just say that while you acknowledge that yes they did signed those players (which is fair), they shortly dumped them soon thereafter because again the rule or philosophy. Long term contracts are bad for the franchise according to this ownership group. There's also a gray area we both aren't acknowledging. What is a long term deal versus a mega deal? Long term deals (generally 5-7 years), mega deals (9+ years). You're talking about the difference of star core type players and franchise type players. Guys like Mookie, Stanton, Trout, Witt Jr, Tatis Jr, Ohtani, Judge. There's a different class for those type of players. Whether we agree on that is another thing. The Sox are in that 5-7 year range a lot as their max offers. If we're now defining a mega-deal as any very long (9+ year) contract, there have only been about 16 mega-deals given out this century (not counting extensions for very young players like Witt and Julio Rodriguez). And one of them was the Red Sox with Devers. Only the Dodgers, Yankees, Phillies, Padres, and Rangers have given out more than one. The problem is that, it's not so much about the teams that have had these franchise types or how many contracts there are (9+ year contract players), but how few and far between franchise type players are to come by.
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Post by sxfan on Oct 30, 2024 15:14:48 GMT -5
Won't go into the Manny aspect, since Champs covered that. They didn't agree to A-Rod to come here. They wanted him on their terms. I'll just say that while you acknowledge that yes they did signed those players (which is fair), they shortly dumped them soon thereafter because again the rule or philosophy. Long term contracts are bad for the franchise according to this ownership group. There's also a gray area we both aren't acknowledging. What is a long term deal versus a mega deal? Long term deals (generally 5-7 years), mega deals (9+ years). You're talking about the difference of star core type players and franchise type players. Guys like Mookie, Stanton, Trout, Witt Jr, Tatis Jr, Ohtani, Judge. There's a different class for those type of players. Whether we agree on that is another thing. The Sox are in that 5-7 year range a lot as their max offers. The bolded doesn't make sense at all. If they supposedly had that rule/philosophy, why would they sign the contract in the first place? What would getting off the contract early gain them? They got off of those deals because they weren't good deals at the time (Mookie excluded), which if anything validates this imaginary rule that you have made up. Generally curious of your line of thinking. Not nitpicking just curious. Do you have a feeling that the Sox will make a 500+ million dollar offer to Soto? That's the legitimate offer you have to get to talk to him I'm sure. In a perfect world, they should be in on him. Plenty of cap space, they can make room in the outfield, perfect swing for Fenway. Perfect player. Best player you can probably spend money on the next 5-10 years in free agency. Ted Williams Jr. Why are most Red Sox fans almost dismissing the notion of him coming here if I'm more wrong than right about this? I've provided examples, quotes, there's that Zach Scott tweet also. You dismissed the dumping of Price, Crawford, Gonzalez because of the long-term contract they had. My answer to that is, they were prepared to pay for it begrudgingly, but took the first get out free jail card the moment they could take it. I think 50/50 fans are agreeing with me, disproving it immediately (or calling it nonsense).
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Post by incandenza on Oct 30, 2024 15:39:16 GMT -5
The bolded doesn't make sense at all. If they supposedly had that rule/philosophy, why would they sign the contract in the first place? What would getting off the contract early gain them? They got off of those deals because they weren't good deals at the time (Mookie excluded), which if anything validates this imaginary rule that you have made up. Generally curious of your line of thinking. Not nitpicking just curious. Do you have a feeling that the Sox will make a 500+ million dollar offer to Soto? That's the legitimate offer you have to get to talk to him I'm sure. In a perfect world, they should be in on him. Plenty of cap space, they can make room in the outfield, perfect swing for Fenway. Perfect player. Best player you can probably spend money on the next 5-10 years in free agency. Ted Williams Jr. Why are most Red Sox fans almost dismissing the notion of him coming here if I'm more wrong than right about this? I've provided examples, quotes, there's that Zach Scott tweet also. You dismissed the dumping of Price, Crawford, Gonzalez because of the long-term contract they had. My answer to that is, they were prepared to pay for it begrudgingly, but took the first get out free jail card the moment they could take it. I think 50/50 fans are agreeing with me, disproving it immediately (or calling it nonsense). Well now we have Alex Speier saying that in 2019 the Red Sox in fact offered Mookie more than he ultimately received from the Dodgers. Do you find that less credible than Zack Scott's tweet?
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Post by sxfan on Oct 30, 2024 15:45:21 GMT -5
Generally curious of your line of thinking. Not nitpicking just curious. Do you have a feeling that the Sox will make a 500+ million dollar offer to Soto? That's the legitimate offer you have to get to talk to him I'm sure. In a perfect world, they should be in on him. Plenty of cap space, they can make room in the outfield, perfect swing for Fenway. Perfect player. Best player you can probably spend money on the next 5-10 years in free agency. Ted Williams Jr. Why are most Red Sox fans almost dismissing the notion of him coming here if I'm more wrong than right about this? I've provided examples, quotes, there's that Zach Scott tweet also. You dismissed the dumping of Price, Crawford, Gonzalez because of the long-term contract they had. My answer to that is, they were prepared to pay for it begrudgingly, but took the first get out free jail card the moment they could take it. I think 50/50 fans are agreeing with me, disproving it immediately (or calling it nonsense). Well now we have Alex Speier saying that in 2019 the Red Sox in fact offered Mookie more than he ultimately received from the Dodgers. Do you find that less credible than Zack Scott's tweet? Both sides are credible. The Dodgers paid less present day money, but ultimately more money in the end. Mookie was scared off by the Pandemic (maybe trading him was a bad idea if you offer him the same deal after the pandemic). Mookie's timing to free agency just stunk overall. He was looking for 400 plus million. He would have gotten it under normal circumstances I'm sure.
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Post by vermontsox1 on Oct 30, 2024 15:52:57 GMT -5
Let's not rehash the Mookie trade please.
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Post by abrinker on Oct 30, 2024 15:58:58 GMT -5
More to the economics discussion...
New England has ~3M cable subscribers. NESN received ~$300M in subscription fees (cable, satellite, streaming, though the latter is paltry). Avg subscription fee is $5.14/mo (let's round up to $5.20 to reflect, though small, revenue derived from streaming at $30/mo. That would suggest NESN is distributed to approx 4.8M customers (cable, satellite and streaming). In reality, though, only 10-15% of cable/satellite customers watch the RSN channel provided in their package. That would mean only 500-700K people actually watch NESN (true users). So the more than 4M subscribers are subsidizing the true users. It's a fantastic model for content providers like the Sox. In some ways it's like taxes. Retired people have to contribute to the govt's cost of public education through their taxes, even though they don't really directly benefit from it (i.e., they don't have kids that their taxes are paying for).
NESN distributes to the Red Sox close to $100M in rights fees derived from the 4.8M people. As folks cut the cord and move to a-la-carte alternatives, that significantly reduces NESN's true user market. Cable subscribers have been declining at a rate of about 10% per year. At that rate, the 4.8M number will be 2.8M in 5 years. This will reduce NESN subscription fee revenue (assuming statis $5.14/mo rate with distribution providers) to $177M. But the cost of programming isn't really changing. Every media provider is struggling with the same issues, which is why they're all rushing to build their own streaming platforms.
The problem for channel operators is programming. Red Sox games provide, what, 4 hours of programming each game (incl pre and post game), multiplied by 150 games (gotta exclude nationally televised), gets us to 600 hours, or 7% of total programming time per year. Add another 300 hours for Bruins games, and live-action sports accounts for 10% of programming time. NESN has to pay for other programming to fill up the time; otherwise, distributors won't carry their channels and advertisers won't buy ad time. So, programming costs are somewhat fixed, which means as traditional subscriber revenue decreases...big problems.
To offset this loss, and to maintain margins on programming, NESN has to look elsewhere, like streaming. But of those 2M of cord cutters, only 200-300K are actually really interested in NESN to begin with, so recouping the lost $123M in revenue, NESN has to charge $60/mo to those true users, or they need to significantly reduce programming costs, which may further deplete true users due to degraded content. This is the fundamental problem with the traditional distribution model. Since BOS owns 80% of NESN, they're significantly exposed; whereas, NYY only owns 20% of YES (they've syndicated the risk). LAD is in the best position, since they negotiated a mind-blowing 25-year contract with TWC that guarantees massive annual sums, leaving TWC (now Spectrum) with all the downside. And they have 14 years of fixed revenue, giving them time and money to invest in model changes that bridge to a new economic paradigm in 2038.
Bottom line, owning a RSN is bad business, and the Sox are paying for going all in on that model. And that's a big part of the economic reality that shapes the team's payroll calculus now and into the future. Not just BOS, but most other teams, too. So when we complain about why we don't spend like the top clubs, that handwringing ignores the economic realities. LAD played 3D chess, NYY defrayed their risk, and we played it wrong.
At least that's how I read it. (But I'm also kind of an idiot, so...)
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Oct 30, 2024 15:59:27 GMT -5
The bolded doesn't make sense at all. If they supposedly had that rule/philosophy, why would they sign the contract in the first place? What would getting off the contract early gain them? They got off of those deals because they weren't good deals at the time (Mookie excluded), which if anything validates this imaginary rule that you have made up. Generally curious of your line of thinking. Not nitpicking just curious. Do you have a feeling that the Sox will make a 500+ million dollar offer to Soto? That's the legitimate offer you have to get to talk to him I'm sure. In a perfect world, they should be in on him. Plenty of cap space, they can make room in the outfield, perfect swing for Fenway. Perfect player. Best player you can probably spend money on the next 5-10 years in free agency. Ted Williams Jr. Why are most Red Sox fans almost dismissing the notion of him coming here if I'm more wrong than right about this? I've provided examples, quotes, there's that Zach Scott tweet also. You dismissed the dumping of Price, Crawford, Gonzalez because of the long-term contract they had. My answer to that is, they were prepared to pay for it begrudgingly, but took the first get out free jail card the moment they could take it. I think 50/50 fans are agreeing with me, disproving it immediately (or calling it nonsense). I don't think the Red Sox will sign Juan Soto because I think there are other organizations that are willing to give absolutely reckless contracts in order to acquire that level of talent, not because I think the Red Sox have some arbitrary affinity to big deals.
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Post by incandenza on Oct 30, 2024 16:10:27 GMT -5
Let's not rehash the Mookie trade please. But new information!!
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Post by sxfan on Oct 30, 2024 16:21:01 GMT -5
Generally curious of your line of thinking. Not nitpicking just curious. Do you have a feeling that the Sox will make a 500+ million dollar offer to Soto? That's the legitimate offer you have to get to talk to him I'm sure. In a perfect world, they should be in on him. Plenty of cap space, they can make room in the outfield, perfect swing for Fenway. Perfect player. Best player you can probably spend money on the next 5-10 years in free agency. Ted Williams Jr. Why are most Red Sox fans almost dismissing the notion of him coming here if I'm more wrong than right about this? I've provided examples, quotes, there's that Zach Scott tweet also. You dismissed the dumping of Price, Crawford, Gonzalez because of the long-term contract they had. My answer to that is, they were prepared to pay for it begrudgingly, but took the first get out free jail card the moment they could take it. I think 50/50 fans are agreeing with me, disproving it immediately (or calling it nonsense). I don't think the Red Sox will sign Juan Soto because I think there are other organizations that are willing to give absolutely reckless contracts in order to acquire that level of talent, not because I think the Red Sox have some arbitrary affinity to big deals. Ugh you avoided to 500 million dollar question. I think you kind of answered it by not answering it. Why are other teams susceptible to long term reckless contracts, but the Sox aren't? The Sox aren't smarter than everyone else here. Everyone has a ivy league graduate GM now.
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Oct 30, 2024 16:39:17 GMT -5
I don't think the Red Sox will sign Juan Soto because I think there are other organizations that are willing to give absolutely reckless contracts in order to acquire that level of talent, not because I think the Red Sox have some arbitrary affinity to big deals. Ugh you avoided to 500 million dollar question. I think you kind of answered it by not answering it. Why are other teams susceptible to long term reckless contracts, but the Sox aren't? The Sox aren't smarter than everyone else here. Everyone has a ivy league graduate GM now. There are only like three or four teams that are really doing this right now, so I'm not sure it's some league-wide willingness to blow money on a single star that the Red Sox are shamefully opting out of. There's a difference in not being willing to give players record-setting contracts and not being willing to give big contracts at all, the latter was your original point and has been consistently proven wrong by this board. If you'd like to move the goalposts you are more than welcome to, but I am going to go ahead and give up on trying to reason with you otherwise.
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jimoh
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Post by jimoh on Oct 30, 2024 17:03:43 GMT -5
Generally curious of your line of thinking. Not nitpicking just curious. Do you have a feeling that the Sox will make a 500+ million dollar offer to Soto? That's the legitimate offer you have to get to talk to him I'm sure. In a perfect world, they should be in on him. Plenty of cap space, they can make room in the outfield, perfect swing for Fenway. Perfect player. Best player you can probably spend money on the next 5-10 years in free agency. Ted Williams Jr. Why are most Red Sox fans almost dismissing the notion of him coming here if I'm more wrong than right about this? I've provided examples, quotes, there's that Zach Scott tweet also. You dismissed the dumping of Price, Crawford, Gonzalez because of the long-term contract they had. My answer to that is, they were prepared to pay for it begrudgingly, but took the first get out free jail card the moment they could take it. I think 50/50 fans are agreeing with me, disproving it immediately (or calling it nonsense). Well now we have Alex Speier saying that in 2019 the Red Sox in fact offered Mookie more than he ultimately received from the Dodgers. Do you find that less credible than Zack Scott's tweet? I've always believed that. Covid was a giant wild card that could have dampened revenues for years. Mookie got less from the Dodgers (let's call that X) than he would have gotten if there had been no Covid (Y); the Red Sox could well have offered Z which is less than Y but more than X and Mookie thought he would get more..
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Post by dcb26 on Oct 30, 2024 17:04:51 GMT -5
I feel like some people believe that "The Red Sox are not in on EVERY big free agent" is the same thing as "The Red Sox are not in on ANY big free agent."
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