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Post by raftsox on Jun 14, 2013 15:46:41 GMT -5
I'm surprised people are so down on Middlebrooks' longterm prognosis. If Youk isn't injured last season he spends the whole year in AAA. This year would be his rookie season; it essentially is anyways considering he didn't get 500 plate appearances last year.
Iglesias is going to turn into a pumpkin at some point. The best defensive short stop in the Majors is still only going to get you 2 WAR. So, a 2 WAR shortstop with a 630 OPS is somehow enough to shuttle Middlebrooks off? Middlebrooks minorleague numbers suggest he's a .265-.270/.330/.485 hitter at the majors. That bat is enough to be more valuable than Iglesias' defense.
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danr
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Post by danr on Jun 14, 2013 15:59:49 GMT -5
You might be right. I'm not forecasting his performance. I'm just saying that he should be given an extended chance. Obviously, I am very unenthusiastic about Drew, and I think Iglesias is an upgrade there now, even if he only hits what you suggest. There just are too many o-fer nights for Drew, especially in games where a hit or two would make a difference.
I agree that if he does not get into the upper .200s, it may not be worth moving Bogaerts for him. But if he does, and, assuming that Middlebrooks doesn't improve significantly, a decent-hitting Iglesias at SS with Bogaerts at 3B could make for some exciting years.
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Post by terriblehondo on Jun 14, 2013 17:15:23 GMT -5
I am bias towards defense. I would give Iggy a shot at SS and see if he can stick. There were a couple of pretty good shortstops in Omar and Ozzie that had some seasons with on OPS of under 600 that I sure would have liked to have. Xander at 3rd that would be some excellent defense on the left side. I also would not give up on WMB better to have to many options than to few.
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Post by wskeleton76 on Jun 14, 2013 19:30:59 GMT -5
Come on. Iggy was too rushed. He increased his power and speed last off season. Don't judge him by his minor stat. Yeah guys, judge him off his 84 PA's and killer .523 BABIP!Iglesias is the perfect trade candidate to me. No reason not to form the infield around Xander for the short and long term (starting whenever he's ready), as a SS. I am happy you are not a GM. Xander isn't long term SS.
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Post by pedroelgrande on Jun 14, 2013 19:46:48 GMT -5
Y?
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Post by mainesox on Jun 14, 2013 19:48:38 GMT -5
Yeah guys, judge him off his 84 PA's and killer .523 BABIP!Iglesias is the perfect trade candidate to me. No reason not to form the infield around Xander for the short and long term (starting whenever he's ready), as a SS. I am happy you are not a GM. Xander isn't long term SS. I'm glad you aren't a GM. That's still completely debatable.
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danr
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Post by danr on Jun 14, 2013 20:23:45 GMT -5
Iggy has two of the three hits so far, a double and a bunt single.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2013 22:02:25 GMT -5
Why would we trade Iglesias? He has clearly developed good hitting skills and his defense is ELITE. XB can't stay as SS long term. I'm not sure about everyone else, but I am tired of having a new SS every year. I want a good year-to-year SS. I think Iglesias is that guy. Bottom line: he needs to be kept as he is 1) hitting, 2) a good young guy to have in the clubhouse, 3) playing elite defense, 4) cost controlled for the next 6 years, and 5) got 2 of the Red Sox three hits tonight, so he is carrying this team in tough games. I would not trade him.
WMB needs to figure it out. He is still very talented. If Will picks it up again, does that mean XB could move to the outfield?
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Post by wcsoxfan on Jun 14, 2013 23:29:37 GMT -5
I don't get the desire to move WMB to first so that Xander can play 3B. If WMB figures things out offensively and Iggy proves that this isn't a SSS (obviously neither is a given) then the clear choice should be moving Xander to 1B and let him do his best Albert Pujols impression - he is tall enough for the position. And it isn't like the 1 year contract of Mike Napoli is a huge obstacle here. (The OF 'may' be full-ish even if Jacoby leaves)
Unless the scouting reports are wrong - WMB is 'rounding into a plus 3B' (UZR doesn't like him so far this year in a SSS) and Xander isn't likely to be better than that. But keeping Xander on the left side of the IF just keep his value high is pointless unless there is a reasonable chance that the Red Sox will trade him. If anything his lack of value would only strengthen the Red Sox attempt to sign him long term to a far below market contract. A plus 3B and a potential plus 1B is better than two average-to-plus corners.
Obviously if Iglesias or WMB can't hold there spots - it makes the decision an easy one for a year or two.
At the rate XB is progressing I can't see him not starting for the Red Sox on opening day 2014 unless they pull an Evan Longoria on him.
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Post by Legion of Bloom on Jun 14, 2013 23:33:42 GMT -5
You don't move Xander to fit in Middlebrooks, you play Xander where he's more valuable to the team (be it SS/3B) and then you fit in the other pieces accordingly.
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Post by wcsoxfan on Jun 15, 2013 1:39:47 GMT -5
You don't move Xander to fit in Middlebrooks, you play Xander where he's more valuable to the team (be it SS/3B) and then you fit in the other pieces accordingly. By that same logic: You don't move XanderOrtiz to fit in MiddlebrooksNapoli, you play XanderOrtiz where he's more valuable to the team (be it SS/3B1B) and then you fit in the other pieces accordingly. The superior offensive player playing a more important defensive position because he is a superior offensive player is a really good way to lose baseball games. But you are not the only person on this forum with this opinion. By this same logic, Pujols would have never moved off of 3B and Miguel Cabrera would still be playing 3B....wait - I guess that one is true. Also Machado playing SS with Hardy shifting to 3B would make far more sense than Bogaerts playing 3B with Middlebrooks shifting to 1B, but this is working quite well for the Orioles. In my 'opinion' Buck Showalter is the best manager in baseball (although I don't know if this was his call) which leads me to further believe that this was a smart move. I wonder if this being a prospect forum is the reason for this thinking. Because this rationale makes perfect sense to me if you are talking about a minor league player where the point is to maximize the player's talents and value on his way to becoming the best player he can be OR the most valuable trade chip he can be. But in the Majors it's about winning baseball games. I would like to know where there may be a disconnect though - as I feel as though I may be missing something.
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Post by wskeleton76 on Jun 15, 2013 3:18:47 GMT -5
Why would we trade Iglesias? He has clearly developed good hitting skills and his defense is ELITE. XB can't stay as SS long term. I'm not sure about everyone else, but I am tired of having a new SS every year. I want a good year-to-year SS. I think Iglesias is that guy. Bottom line: he needs to be kept as he is 1) hitting, 2) a good young guy to have in the clubhouse, 3) playing elite defense, 4) cost controlled for the next 6 years, and 5) got 2 of the Red Sox three hits tonight, so he is carrying this team in tough games. I would not trade him. WMB needs to figure it out. He is still very talented. If Will picks it up again, does that mean XB could move to the outfield? +1 Trading iggy would be the most ridiculous idea.
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Post by jmei on Jun 15, 2013 8:52:50 GMT -5
There are two separate decisions involved. The first is: which players will be on the major league roster? The second is: where will they play?
If we've already settled the first question and the answer is Bogaerts and Iglesias, it's pretty clear that you play Iglesias at SS and Bogaerts at 3B, as that probably gives you better defense than the other way around (more balls are hit to SS and Iglesias is by far the better defender here).
However, if we haven't answered the first question yet, it may make sense to consider the answer to the second question when deciding the first question. By that I mean we have to consider who would play where if we made them the starter. It's a fun hypothetical question, but a lot will change by the end of the year. Eyes will be on Iglesias and Middlebrooks to see how sustainable their recent performances are.
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Post by bluechip on Jun 15, 2013 10:54:41 GMT -5
I would play Xander at third, for its own reasons. If you believe Xander is able to play short for the short run, but that he will be marginal in the long run, you move him now while you can. It's proven difficult to ove superstar players once they are established. It happens, but not without complaining.
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Post by wcsoxfan on Jun 15, 2013 10:58:14 GMT -5
There are two separate decisions involved. The first is: which players will be on the major league roster? The second is: where will they play? If we've already settled the first question and the answer is Bogaerts and Iglesias, it's pretty clear that you play Iglesias at SS and Bogaerts at 3B, as that probably gives you better defense than the other way around (more balls are hit to SS and Iglesias is by far the better defender here). However, if we haven't answered the first question yet, it may make sense to consider the answer to the second question when deciding the first question. By that I mean we have to consider who would play where if we made them the starter. It's a fun hypothetical question, but a lot will change by the end of the year. Eyes will be on Iglesias and Middlebrooks to see how sustainable their recent performances are. Good point - I think as we drill even further, we may have to consider which players are 'starters' or 'starting caliber' simply because Iglesias would be a pretty amazing full-time util player if his bad drops off. Either way, if either WMB of Iglegias turn into a stud - I think we should be pretty happy. Hoping both turn into studs may be too much to ask, but we can always hope. I have a feeling that the big question mark for the 2013/2014 off-season will be 'who's on first?'
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Post by dmaineah on Jun 15, 2013 15:38:25 GMT -5
I don't believe Iglesias will hit enough to warrant starting and will be traded. The left side of the infield will be Middlebrooks at 3B & Bogaerts at SS. Marrero is the wild card looking further.
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Post by soxcentral on Jun 15, 2013 16:24:44 GMT -5
I have a feeling that the big question mark for the 2013/2014 off-season will be 'who's on first?' Mike Carp?
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Post by brendan98 on Jun 15, 2013 16:45:18 GMT -5
I have a feeling that the big question mark for the 2013/2014 off-season will be 'who's on first?' Mike Carp? Gotta at least be in the conversation, along with Napoli as well.
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Post by semperfisox on Jun 15, 2013 16:55:40 GMT -5
I don't believe Iglesias will hit enough to warrant starting and will be traded. The left side of the infield will be Middlebrooks at 3B & Bogaerts at SS. Marrero is the wild card looking further. I'd bet on Iglesias to hit more than WMB. That kid has been putrid.
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danr
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Post by danr on Jun 15, 2013 17:02:27 GMT -5
I always have been a big fan of Middlebrooks, but I am very concerned about him now. I think that maybe they should have left him in Pawtucket for an extended period. Pitchers have learned how to pitch to him and he hasn't adjusted. He needs to work on things and he can't do for a team in contention.
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 19, 2013 23:59:38 GMT -5
People seem to forget that Iglesias is only 23 years old and that was aggressively pushed through our system. He would be a 2 WAR player on defense alone (See: Ryan, Brendan), and even then I still think he ends up hitting a decent line at the major league level. Considering his age, that he's definitely filling out (looks much stronger this year), injuries which have derailed his development, I still think we have not seen what Iglesias can become and owe it to ourselves to give him a chance. I don't think he's been aggressively pushed at all. At the AAA level, he got 387 PA's in 2011, 396 in 2012, and 133 this season. All of that came out to a .244/.296/.292/.588 line. That's 916 AAA PA's total, so you can't blame us for being heavily inclined to consider that over his 87 PA for the Red Sox this year when evaluating him. Omar Vizquel's AAA stat line: 378 PA, .234/.291/.308/.598 I'm of the opinion that Iglesias has the potential to at least hit at a Vizquel/Ozzie level with a glove that's almost as close. I find it ridiculous that people want to trade him and writing him off when he really could be the next Ozzie Smith/Vizquel minus a little speed. People can say SSS all day, but has anyone paid attention to his approach instead of focusing on his BAPIP? His BAPIP could fall 200 points and he'd still have a good enough OPS. And he is still improving.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jun 20, 2013 0:03:31 GMT -5
It's not even the BABIP, it's that he's still only got about 100 plate appearances. Hey, remember when Will Middlebrooks had 100 good plate appearances? The Red Sox have been paying for it ever since. And he's a guy who had a hell of a lot more success in the minors than Iglesias did.
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 20, 2013 0:54:20 GMT -5
It's not even the BABIP, it's that he's still only got about 100 plate appearances. Hey, remember when Will Middlebrooks had 100 good plate appearances? The Red Sox have been paying for it ever since. And he's a guy who had a hell of a lot more success in the minors than Iglesias did. Teams didn't have a book on Middlebrooks to throw pitches off the plate outside because he'll swing every time and try to pull it. Iglesias already has a much better approach than Middlebrooks ever has had. SSS and all. I don't think his approach is going to regress a lot. I know his BAPIP will go down, but I'm seeing enough from him right now to believe he'll be a close to .700 OPS guy at the worst. Pitchers already have the book on him from last year and the minors but he adjusted already by making the pitcher throw him the pitch he wants to hit. I don't think that is just going to go away. But I don't really want to compare those two because I think Middlebrooks will adjust eventually. He had similar problems when making jumps in the minors but he always adjusted.
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Post by colombianrsox on Jun 20, 2013 5:53:55 GMT -5
I believe XB could be utility at least half a season to get some at bats. He is young. After ASB then everything would be clearer and any of the infield could be traded. And remember.. Knock knock... Cecchini may be here... We surely need that kind of depth since WMB has been oft injured
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Post by tjb21 on Jun 20, 2013 8:29:22 GMT -5
I believe XB could be utility at least half a season to get some at bats. He is young. After ASB then everything would be clearer and any of the infield could be traded. And remember.. Knock knock... Cecchini may be here... We surely need that kind of depth since WMB has been oft injured I'm not sure Xander would be taking a utility role anywhere. If he's not starting everyday with the big club, he's going to stay down at AAA. Cecchini isn't close to being called up this year. (sorry if this sounded snarky, not my intention)
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