Memory Lane Discussion (from ALDS Gm 2 thread)

   John, 

I'm too lazy to go to old line scores, but I seem to remember him actually going as long as 6 or 7 that year in relief, and they had a deep pen.  Also, they invariably went to him later that game- too late.  Of course everyone remembers that one, and Bucky, but the first one, which does not get mentioned, for this post '68 sox fan was when in 1972 there was a brief strike causing an uneven schedule. The sox finished with a 3 game series vs. Detroit who they were 1/2 game ahead of, lose the first game, then in game 2 Yaz hits a sure three bagger, and 
Aparicio- one of the greatest basestealers ever when younger, trips rounding third and gets doubled off, they lose by one run, and lose the year:  Tigers 86-70
                                                               Sox   85-70.. my friend and his dad were trying to console me when I was sick in their car!

Nice share John,

   Thanks.  Being a lifelong NY sox fan- rare in those days, the only time ever I went to Fenway, staying with some Boston relatives was during the September '72 pennant race, when they had just brought Dewey up as a 20 year old.  Note, as per the other post, it's the only time I know of a team finished 1/2 game out- in the Win column!

Oh man, That was the "rip off" season Tony and remember it well. Boston got shorted that half game because of the strike and lost out.

Seemed like back during the 70's Boston always found a reason to lose didn't it? Remember when Earl Weaver would tell reporters over the summers when questioned about Boston rolling through the early summer "I don't worry about Boston, they will collapse in September" because they always would? It was like he was just reminding every Sox player that they were going to collapse regardless.

Smartest thing the team ever did and most of us didn't like it at all, was to dismantle the team following the 73 and 74 seasons of it's solid veteran core, like Aparicio, Smith, Cepeda, Harper, Veale, Bolin, Siebert and built towards what would give them a chance in '75 and beyond.

There may not be a bigger Yaz fan around than myself and will always look at him from a tilted perspective in that way.. So here goes from 2 perspectives..

Yaz was 100% behind Mr Yawkey. He was supposedly his most dearest friend and wasn't going to do anything that Mr Yawkey didn't want to do that would hurt him and the strike would definitely hurt him in the wallet.

It also came out during that time (we don't know if it is true or not) that Mr Yawkey even asked Yaz to help persuade players to vote "no" against the strike.

Another version goes that "yaz was so greedy he didn't wanted the strike so he could draw his 100k pay" Yaz was one of the highest paid players in the game at the time.

Now... Before anyone jumps down my throat here.. 3 I always thought was nonsense and the imagination of writers. 2 was always suspect and 1 was always the truth.

Interesting on Yaz and the strike.  Two more sox collapses not talked about as much...Going into '74 they had one of their best and deepest pitching staffs before or since, 7 or 8 starter possibilities if you include Moret, Drago, and the great prospect Dick Pole (who shortly had a career ending injury).  Then they were ravaged by the most injuries I'd seen, until last year- famously Fisk getting his leg broken by a base runner, and Doug Griffin
beaned by Nolan Ryan.  Despite leading the league in injuries they led in early September, but it became too much and they had something like a 9 game losing streak simultaneous to both the Yankees and Baltimore winning about 10 in a row... then in terms of stupidity and effect, for an all time manager faux pas, comparable to Little leaving Pedro in 2003- the end of game 7 in 1975 with the score tied they bring in Wiloughby, in an era of shorter bullpens, and he had his good sinker going and being an ex starting pitcher was good for 4 innings of untouchable work in extras.  The manager pulls him after 1 to pinch hit Cecil Cooper (who had been I believe 1 for 19) with none on and 2 out.  Jim Burton came in and gave up the losing run and that was that.  

I think 1974 was seen as a growing pains that 1975 alleviated. The Sox could have called up Rice and Lynn sooner, but despite the offensive issues, didn't.

I don't get why Cooper was sent up to pinch-hit for Willoughby either. The momentum had shifted towards the Reds, Willoughby mowed down the Reds in order on weak grounders, and when Evans led off with a walk in the last of the 8th, Burleson messed up the bunt and wound up hitting into a double play. At that point the inning is about dead. Johnson was hoping for a Cooper pinchhit homer, saw the lefties coming up and decided on Burton, but that's like pinning the most pivotal inning of your season on a Tony Fossas or a Javier Lopez. He should have kept in Willoughby and then they had the top of the order up in the last of the 9th. Instead they gave up the run with two outs on a Morgan blooper and then McAnaney shut them down in the last of the 9th.

Even if they went extra innings, I'd think they'd involve Dick Drago. I know he pitched a few innings the night before, but in the 7th Game of the World Series you hold nothing back.

I always maintained that what cost the Sox championships most throughout the years were brain-dead managers. From Joe McCarthy's drunken stupor decisions to Johnson's decision, to Zimmer's stubbornness and stupidity to McNamara's flat-out lunacy to Grady Little's foolishness. Makes me appreciate Francona all the more and hopeful that Farrell can be more like Francona than the idiots that I've mentioned. I haven't always agreed with his moves but Farrell strikes me as somebody who's on the ball.

Good recall. It was the 8th and the Sox had a 3-2 lead with the bases loaded and 2 outs and actually it was Jesse Orosco who was pitching to Buckner at that point. The always inpatient Buckner flied out to CF on the first pitch to strand 3 more runners, something he did with regularity during that Series.

And the Bagwell deal 4 years later was brutal of course. In Lou Gorman's defense, I think he felt a lot of pressure to win while Mrs. Yawkey was still alive, to the point where the future was being sacrificed without much thought. They could have gotten Larry Andersen for a lefty starter prospect named Dave Owens who never made it, or Kevin Morton whose success was short-lived or the overrated Scott Cooper. Instead they convinced themselves that Bagwell would never hit for power and was 4th on the depth chart at 3b behind Boggs, Cooper, and Naehring. How ridiculous was that? New Britain was an awful place to hit and he batted .334 with a bunch of doubles.

Getting back to 1986, I think there are a lot of younger posters on this board who weren't even born or were certainly too young to remember that year. They can't fathom why a fan might not feel overconfident about the Red Sox chances or be hesitant to say victory is imminent until that last out is gotten. Unless you went through it you have no idea what it's like. I'd say 2003 is close, but not quite there. It stung because it was the Yankees, but it wasn't the Series.

They might point to 2011, but I think it's different. That 2011 team took a month to blow things and during that time the team felt quite unlikable. I wasn't heartbroken when the 2011 team blew it - when they did blow it, it was humiliating, but by then I was so ticked at the team I said, F' them. They got what they deserved.

The 1986 team was different. They won a bunch of amazing games, games they had no right to win. They were picked 5th in the division, but the season felt magical and it felt like destiny that the team would win, especially given their miraculous comeback against the Angels. But that 10th inning at Shea and the 7th game were agonizing. Victory was so close you could taste it. I remember Hurst being declared MVP and the scoreboard operator accidentally flashing the message that said Congratulations Boston Red Sox. I remember the 3-0 lead in the 7th game and the 8th inning comeback that fell short and Strawberry's hour long jog around the bases after hitting his 8th inning HR (another reason why I hate it when Fenway fans taunt opposing players. Dar---ryl stuffed that chant up the Sox' butts. Hope Myers doesn't do that.) That kind of thing scars you, even with the joy of 2004 and 2007. I guess watching the Sox long enough, you learn that no lead is ever safe because the Sox can blow it, but that no deficit is insurmountable, because the Sox can find a way to pull off a baseball miracle.

This really couldn't be more wrong. They drafted amazingly under O'Connell, and like a later GM, Lou Gorman, he had a great knack for getting pitching essentially for free (Luis Tiant, Jose Santiago, Ray Culp). But he was a pretty consistently terrible trader.

Lyle for Cater was not mandated; they had no 1B after trading George Scott, Jim Lonborg, Ken Brett, Joe Lahoud, and Billy Conigliaro for Tommy Harper, Marty Pattin, and Lew Krausse, an unimaginably bad trade (and I thought so at the time) even without factoring in that Harper was supposed to play CF and simply couldn't. (Cecil Cooper was supposed to take over 1B, but they discovered in ST that he couldn't remotely field the position yet.)

The racially motivated Earl Wilson for Don Demeter trade, losing Amos Otis in the minor league phase of the Rule 5 draft, not getting nearly enough for Tony C, moving a young plus defensive SS in Rico Petrocelli to 3B to make room for Luis Aparicio's corpse, Ben Oglivie for Dick McAuliffe, not getting nearly enough for Reggie Smith, McGlothen / Curtis / Garman for Cleveland / Segui, Cooper for the corpse of George Scott (plus Bernie Carbo -- O'Connell made three trades involving him, all of them bad) -- he squandered an amazing amount of talent.

And one of his earliest decisions may have been his worst; I presume he is ultimately the guy who decided Ken Brett should pitch rather than play the outfield, against the recommendation of scout Joe Stephenson, who said he was the best position-playing prospect he ever saw.

I mean, when you have a team featuring Yaz, Smith, Scott, and Petrocelli in their primes, and then proceed to add Fisk, Evans, Lynn, Rice, Burleson, Cooper, Oglivie, Juan Beniquez, and Rick Miller in the course of about four or five seasons, you really ought to have some kind of mini-dynasty. It took an enormous reverse effort to win just one pennant. I did a Win Share analysis of 1974, players traded away (excluding Otis) versus players obtained, and the net was -85 Win Shares, or -28 wins.

Ericmvan,

Can agree with a lot of your points. Boston was and still is under pressure to deliver winning teams on the field. Back then the team never could seem to put pitchers through it's minor league system either. Just look back. After Lonny.. There was a massive gap. The team was developing bat after bat. They attempted trading so called "excessive" bats for pitching help. It started with Hawk Harrelson, he brought them Siebert. They tried again with Tony C and the kid Tatum, but he never panned out. Reggie Smith brought back the wily vet Rick Wise later on that the team never would have gotten to the '75 WS without.

The team was always forced to either trade established bats for pitchers, or find them on the scrap heap, like they did with Bobby Veale and Tiant.

I agree with all of that, although it's quite possible that at least most of the credit we're giving to O'Connell belongs to Neil Mahoney, scouting director from '62 to '73. I rather doubt it was then-GM Pinky Higgins who stole Reggie Smith from the Twins in the draft of first-year players who hadn't been protected on the 40-man roster.


That he was asked to trade him, sure. But he went and traded a 27 year-old who had been a consistent 2.0-2.4 WAR guy for a 32 year-old who had averaged 1.2 WAR in six seasons as a regular, and was coming off an 0.8 WAR season. The problem was not trading Lyle, but trading him for someone obviously terrible, and aging to boot. If you've got a guy with 22.3 WAR left in his tank, you really ought to do better than a guy with 2.0 left in his.

Like I said, a terrible trader.


The third bad Carbo trade was trading him to the Brewers. They overpaid when they got him, got very little for him, overpaid when they got him back, and then Zimmer made Gorman give him away a second time.


Actually, Boggs 3rd was where he needed to hit; they didn't have enough studs to use him as a leadoff guy. In late 1986, when MacNamara had him leading off, he literally surrounded him, the best hitter in baseball, with his five weakest teammates. The other three good hitters on that team were Rice, Evans, and Baylor, who hit 4th, 6th, and 5th.

Another completely forgotten aspect of of MacNamara's idiocy is his refusal to play Dave Henderson over Tony Armas, despite the former's obvious superiority both offensively and defensively. The only reason Henderson ever became a post-season hero was that Armas got hurt. And then the next season, MacNamara gave a job to a rookie for the only time in his career (Burks) and buried Henderson so deeply on the bench that we got essentially nothing for him.

You could imagine MacNamara and Zimmer in baseball hell where they belong, trading claims to stupidity. After MacNamara tells the Henderson and Armas story, Zim can talk about playing Butch Hobson down the stretch in 1978.