SoxProspects News
|
|
|
|
Legal
Forum Ground Rules
The views expressed by the members of this Forum do not necessarily reflect the views of SoxProspects, LLC.
© 2003-2024 SoxProspects, LLC
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Home | Search | My Profile | Messages | Members | Help |
Welcome Guest. Please Login or Register.
|
Post by remember04 on Oct 30, 2012 15:05:04 GMT -5
Not to get this back on topic...okay on topic for the first time but how would Xanders skill set and possible physical growth translate to 2B? Mostly out of curiosity but in the "your the GM" thread I'd seriously think about trading Pedroia. The Patriot way is its better to part ways with a player a year early rather than a year late. Whenever this time is its approaching and he's been running his mouth lately. 2B is an easy position to upgrade to Pedroia with as most teams don't have anything close never mind better and this leaves a hole at 2B for us. What about Xander? 2b is a little more forgiving than SS but not by much, and very few 6' 2" or taller guys succeed there. Robbie Cano is 6', 210. Robbie Alomar is 6' 184. Blue Jays briefly had a 6' 4" 2b, but he went on to play for the Celtics, Danny Ainge. Here is a 2008 discussion of 2b height: www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/more-2b3b-stuff/Tallest everyday 2b then were "Mark Grudzielanek or Chase Utley, both of whom stand 6’1." (also Jeff Kent) "The average second baseman is 5’11." For today cf. sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/mlb/rosters/position/1/2B.htmlRight away my mind went to Todd Walker but was too lazy to look him up. He was 6 feet even. I would've bet you anything he was taller than that.
|
|
|
Post by borisman on Oct 30, 2012 16:27:09 GMT -5
I believe Bobby Grich was a big dude and he played a lot of 2B. He may also have won a gold glove there, though I'm not sure if that was at second. It was a long time ago.
|
|
|
Post by jioh on Oct 30, 2012 16:35:51 GMT -5
I'm not sure the Fangraphs article you posted serves your point jioh: "To me, it appears that players are separated into 3B and 2B based on things that have little to do with their actual skills, and more about a proxy for what kind of package those skills come in. Perhaps there’s a competitive advantage here for a team that’s willing to take a 6’3 or 6’4 plus defender and shift them to second base instead of third base." www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/more-2b3b-stuff/This seems like a really weak argument. It takes broad categories like "hands" and "instinct" as though they covered everything, and there is no category for "quick hands". 2b have to do small quick things like transfer across the body on the dp. His claim that people are sorted in 2b and 3b regardless of actual ability is not impressive.
|
|
|
Post by lasershow07 on Oct 30, 2012 16:56:31 GMT -5
It defies logic to assume that the category "hands" means anything other than the quality of a player's hands for baseball purposes. Part of that is necessarily fluidity and quickness on the transfer for a double play as a second baseman. His argument is that a team might gain an advantage by using a taller, more capable hitter at 2B if that guy is also a plus defender, or would be at 3B, instead of a lower quality hitter with the same defensive skills who is shorter. This only applies in a very specific circumstance, but the Red Sox might end up being in that place with Bogaerts in a few years, depending on how well Pedroia ages, or the hitting skill of whoever might replace him if Pedroia were traded to accommodate Bogaerts at 2B.
|
|
|
Post by Chris Hatfield on Oct 30, 2012 17:05:09 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by remember04 on Oct 30, 2012 17:17:17 GMT -5
You would think that a taller 2B would have a decent range but may have trouble making quick steps. Something like a nice arm though could be a bit of a waste at second.
My main goal wasn't to trade Pedroia to make room for Xander as much as it was to trade Pedroia to maximize his value and the hole/opening that created being filled by Xander. We expected Youk to not age well and we expect Pedey to not age well as well. We waited too long on Youk and got Zack Stewart, we could trade Pedroia right now for a nice package but if we wait.....And we have to take a step back and look at this team and when we think it will be truly competing again. Most of us think/hope Bogaerts is going to be a part of that but is Pedroia and if not who replaces him? With Iglesias as short and WMB at 3B 2B should at least be considered with Bogaerts if he can competently do it. Swiharts bat profiles most places if he pans out but he profiles best behind the plate. Bogaerts bat plays up better at 2B than it does in the outfield I just think because of Pedroia nobody even considers it a possibility.
|
|
|
Post by lasershow07 on Oct 30, 2012 17:20:03 GMT -5
Just to clarify, I think it's highly unlikely the Red Sox would be a better team with Bogaerts at 2B in the immediate future. Pedroia is a great hitter and maybe even a better defender. Bogaerts would need to be an immediate impact bat to make up the difference between his defensive skill and Pedroia's, not to mention that for this to even be a consideration WMB would have to be considered a better overall player than Pedroia. I wouldn't bet against Pedroia.
|
|
|
Post by remember04 on Oct 30, 2012 17:26:18 GMT -5
Just to clarify, I think it's highly unlikely the Red Sox would be a better team with Bogaerts at 2B in the immediate future. Pedroia is a great hitter and maybe even a better defender. Bogaerts would need to be an immediate impact bat to make up the difference between his defensive skill and Pedroia's, not to mention that for this to even be a consideration WMB would have to be considered a better overall player than Pedroia. I wouldn't bet against Pedroia. For the immediate future I agree. Next year Pedroia would definitely be a better option. The year after the same is probably true but after that it could a flip of the coin as to who is better.
|
|
steveofbradenton
Veteran
Watching Spring Training, the FCL, and the Florida State League
Posts: 1,823
|
Post by steveofbradenton on Oct 30, 2012 17:54:52 GMT -5
You would think that a taller 2B would have a decent range but may have trouble making quick steps. Something like a nice arm though could be a bit of a waste at second. My main goal wasn't to trade Pedroia to make room for Xander as much as it was to trade Pedroia to maximize his value and the hole/opening that created being filled by Xander. We expected Youk to not age well and we expect Pedey to not age well as well. We waited too long on Youk and got Zack Stewart, we could trade Pedroia right now for a nice package but if we wait.....And we have to take a step back and look at this team and when we think it will be truly competing again. Most of us think/hope Bogaerts is going to be a part of that but is Pedroia and if not who replaces him? With Iglesias as short and WMB at 3B 2B should at least be considered with Bogaerts if he can competently do it. Swiharts bat profiles most places if he pans out but he profiles best behind the plate. Bogaerts bat plays up better at 2B than it does in the outfield I just think because of Pedroia nobody even considers it a possibility. WHO has ever agreed with you about this?? Sounds like you may be one of those who still doubt the "Laser Show". I'm glad, and so is all of Boston, that Dustin never listened.
|
|
|
Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 30, 2012 20:09:35 GMT -5
You would think that a taller 2B would have a decent range but may have trouble making quick steps. Something like a nice arm though could be a bit of a waste at second. My main goal wasn't to trade Pedroia to make room for Xander as much as it was to trade Pedroia to maximize his value and the hole/opening that created being filled by Xander. We expected Youk to not age well and we expect Pedey to not age well as well. We waited too long on Youk and got Zack Stewart, we could trade Pedroia right now for a nice package but if we wait.....And we have to take a step back and look at this team and when we think it will be truly competing again. Most of us think/hope Bogaerts is going to be a part of that but is Pedroia and if not who replaces him? With Iglesias as short and WMB at 3B 2B should at least be considered with Bogaerts if he can competently do it. Swiharts bat profiles most places if he pans out but he profiles best behind the plate. Bogaerts bat plays up better at 2B than it does in the outfield I just think because of Pedroia nobody even considers it a possibility. It's an interesting thought, and with the all-out way that Pedroia plays I can see his skills being diminished due to injuries, but that said Pedroia at 2b abd Bogaerts in LF/ RF is a more likely scenario. The Sox aren't deep in corner OF in their system, and when the Sox next compete Pedroia may still be effective and Bogaerts may be at SS still. Another thought is that Middlebrooks might have more value in a deal than Pedroia in a couple of years and Xander could wind up at 3b. Here's hoping he can stay at SS.
|
|
|
Post by iakovos11 on Oct 30, 2012 22:18:34 GMT -5
Trading your best players in their prime is not how you build a franchise with sustained success.
Plus, Xander at 2B is like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole just to find a place for everyone.
|
|
|
Post by jioh on Oct 31, 2012 7:19:01 GMT -5
I remember Grich was well thought of but wondered whether his GGs were deserved or just related to his fame and offense, and the fact that it's hard to tell from afar that a big man is not quick. A little reading (sorry, too hard to post links from the elliptical trainer) suggests thta the stats bear him up. One guy even suggested that he has a a legitimate claim to have been the best defensive ss ever from ages 23-26. OTOH, he was 6-2, 180 and a lot of the worry about XB involves thinking that he Is soon going to weigh a lot more than 180--and that he may weigh more than that already.
|
|
|
Post by bighead on Oct 31, 2012 8:33:40 GMT -5
My main goal wasn't to trade Pedroia to make room for Xander as much as it was to trade Pedroia to maximize his value and the hole/opening that created being filled by Xander. We expected Youk to not age well and we expect Pedey to not age well as well. We waited too long on Youk and got Zack Stewart, we could trade Pedroia right now for a nice package but if we wait..... I agree with the thought process here but the question I have is what do you believe he will bring in return? Then ask whether or not that will be more valuable than the 3 years he has left at an AAV of 10.333 per? I would guess at least two of those season would be highly productive and the third would be productive. Also, a little off topic but if the Sox were going with the move the player now while he has value strategy then Ellsbury would have been traded mid season before he bacame a 1 year rental.
|
|
|
Post by jdb on Oct 31, 2012 9:51:09 GMT -5
Great article from Speier. Hopefully he can make another stride defensively this offseason and early 2013. www.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/alex-speier/2012/10/31/xander-bogaerts-red-sox-shortstop-future-and-wDefensively, Bogaerts isn’t going to be confused for Jose Iglesias. But that’s an unfair basis of comparison. No one, save for Omar Vizquel in his prime and a few others in the last 20 years, is going to compare defensively to Iglesias. Increasingly, at age 19, he looked like a shortstop. Make no mistake, he’s huge for the position -- listed at 6-foot-2 and 175 pounds, he’s actually closer to 6-foot-3 and 200 pounds thanks to the strength gains he’s made since signing as a 16-year-old. Still, he’s maintained his athleticism while cutting down on some of the mistakes he used to make in the field. His error totals declined considerably from 2011 to 2012, as he went from 26 errors in 71 games in Single-A Greenville to 21 errors in 119 games with Salem and Portland last year. That progress, and the improvement in his defensive fundamentals, has the Sox committed to continuing his development at shortstop.
|
|
|
Post by jro545454 on Oct 31, 2012 10:15:35 GMT -5
Agreed JDB, Let him play SS until he grows out of it. Don't move him in anticipation of him growing out of it.
He's obviously still improving at the position. If he can be a league average SS defensively than he is an enormous asset.
|
|
steveofbradenton
Veteran
Watching Spring Training, the FCL, and the Florida State League
Posts: 1,823
|
Post by steveofbradenton on Oct 31, 2012 10:16:43 GMT -5
Great article from Speier. Hopefully he can make another stride defensively this offseason and early 2013. www.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/alex-speier/2012/10/31/xander-bogaerts-red-sox-shortstop-future-and-wDefensively, Bogaerts isn’t going to be confused for Jose Iglesias. But that’s an unfair basis of comparison. No one, save for Omar Vizquel in his prime and a few others in the last 20 years, is going to compare defensively to Iglesias. Increasingly, at age 19, he looked like a shortstop. Make no mistake, he’s huge for the position -- listed at 6-foot-2 and 175 pounds, he’s actually closer to 6-foot-3 and 200 pounds thanks to the strength gains he’s made since signing as a 16-year-old. Still, he’s maintained his athleticism while cutting down on some of the mistakes he used to make in the field. His error totals declined considerably from 2011 to 2012, as he went from 26 errors in 71 games in Single-A Greenville to 21 errors in 119 games with Salem and Portland last year. That progress, and the improvement in his defensive fundamentals, has the Sox committed to continuing his development at shortstop. Great article as usual from Speier. What really was excellent was the evaluations given by the other organization scouts about the X-man. I really like Igesias, but even if he has a solid season and shows everyone how special he is.....I'm, more than ever, for keeping Xander at short. How huge would it be if both have great seasons and we have a difficult choice for 2014? The worst it could be is we have a great trade chip in Iglesias.
|
|
|
Post by elguapo on Oct 31, 2012 10:19:14 GMT -5
Surely we'll have a better idea where things stand in a year --
Best case, Middlebrooks and Iglesias have strong years and one becomes a heck of a trade chip depending on how Bogaerts' fielding looks at SS.
|
|
|
Post by burythehammer on Oct 31, 2012 10:26:24 GMT -5
I don't think it's crazy to say that his ceiling (repeat: ceiling) is best player in baseball. Over the past 4 years, the only SS in baseball with a wOBA over .350 are Tulo and Hanley. And at their best those two guys were clearly in that conversation. He should be a top 10 prospect in baseball.
|
|
|
Post by fan on Oct 31, 2012 11:14:43 GMT -5
His friends call him "Bogie" (a radar blip). Scouts think he fits as a corner OF.
|
|
|
Post by raftsox on Oct 31, 2012 11:55:00 GMT -5
WHO has ever agreed with you about this?? Sounds like you may be one of those who still doubt the "Laser Show". I'm glad, and so is all of Boston, that Dustin never listened. Steve, It's actually a common belief that 2B age worse than other positions (excepting catcher maybe?). There's been a fair amount of research studying this with no real conclusive results being found. Since I'm slightly obsessive-compulse, I pissed my morning away researching this myself. I took all 2B from 1964-2012 who had plate appearances in both age brackets of 25-29 and 30-35 and tried for find a correlation of change in wRC+ and change in WAR vs. PAs. Unfortunately I'm not getting any statistically significant information. WAR, in my opinion is not a very good metric because of the reliance on defensive value which is very hard to get an accurate # on in current times let alone for historical reference. However, for this analysis especially, it's very useless because of the increase in WAR relative to PAs. Stupid me, no useful data there. Fewer PAs could indicate that the player had received less playing time for whatever reason (skill or health), but unfortunately I didn't analyze on a year-year basis so there are many players in the 30-35 bracket who received more PAs maybe because they started their career late or were moved off of another position while in their late 20s. So, no useful data there either. If I were the intrepid type who hadn't already wasted 3 hours of my work-day I would look at a year-year basis vs. wRC+, WAR, PAs and Games. However, you would need to find some sort of significant statistical trend for 2B and compare that with all the other positions to see if 2B do, in fact, age more poorly than other positions. EDIT: I started this because I wanted to see if we could find some sort of reason to trade or not trade Pedroia now. During my search I found out that the site's esteemed overlord played for a brief time in the majors.
|
|
|
Post by brendan98 on Oct 31, 2012 12:18:45 GMT -5
Surely we'll have a better idea where things stand in a year -- Best case, Middlebrooks and Iglesias have strong years and one becomes a heck of a trade chip depending on how Bogaerts' fielding looks at SS. While I understand the thought process with this thinking, I have a hard time agreeing with it. "The Trade" did a pretty nice job of purging the roster of overpaid, underperforming veterans who were on the wrong side of 30, though some still remain. Despite that, the roster has more questions, than solid answers at this point. To me Middlebrooks and Iglesias are part of the building process, not trade chips. It does appear that Xander can be an impact player, one that the Sox could sorely use, but it does not make sense to me that we should view Iglesias or Middlebrooks as spare parts just because we have to have a position for Xander. Xander's value is primarily in his offensive ability, Iglesias value is primarily in his defensive ability, and Middlebrooks is a little of both, based upon that I do not think it is viable to move Iglesias or Middlebrooks for Xander, especially since the Sox have short and long term needs at 1B and the corner OF positions, which could conceivably be positions where Xander could project to be above average defensively in the future, unlike SS or 3B.
|
|
|
Post by larrycook on Oct 31, 2012 13:03:51 GMT -5
I went to a couple of salem games this year, a small group of regulars in the audience were calling him X-Box.
|
|
|
Post by stevebennett9f16 on Oct 31, 2012 13:51:01 GMT -5
Xander makes the cover.
|
|
|
Post by raftsox on Oct 31, 2012 14:38:20 GMT -5
To me Middlebrooks and Iglesias are part of the building process, not trade chips1. It does appear that Xander can be an impact player, one that the Sox could sorely use, but it does not make sense to me that we should view Iglesias or Middlebrooks as spare parts just because we have to have a position for Xander. Xander's value is primarily in his offensive ability, Iglesias value is primarily in his defensive ability, and Middlebrooks is a little of both, based upon that I do not think it is viable to move Iglesias or Middlebrooks for Xander, especially since the Sox have short and long term needs at 1B and the corner OF positions, which could conceivably be positions where Xander could project to be above average defensively in the future, unlike SS or 3B2. I'll address 2 points that I find interesting. Statement 1 is tightly tied to statement 2 so I'll start with #2. 2. What makes you think his defense won't be above average at 3rd? To my knowledge, only one pundit has stated that he might need to move off of 3B, but since that was uttered several more analysts have come out proclaiming that he should be able to stick at SS for a while with a long term move to 3B coming. 1. So, if you have 2 potentially above average defenders and 1 is much better at offense what do you do? Ask the Rangers what their plan with Andrus, Beltre and Profar is. Sure, the Sox could move Xander to the OF, but they could also try to flip Middlebrooks for another needed piece like a 1B or C.
|
|
|
Post by iakovos11 on Oct 31, 2012 14:41:39 GMT -5
1. So, if you have 2 potentially above average defenders and 1 is much better at offense what do you do? Ask the Rangers what their plan with Andrus, Beltre and Profar is. Sure, the Sox could move Xander to the OF, but they could also try to flip Middlebrooks for another needed piece like a 1B or C. Exactly
|
|
|