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Post by sdiaz1 on Jan 1, 2014 14:20:20 GMT -5
So its that time of year again, where hack writers on their self-righteous pedestals decide who should be considered important enough to baseball history to be included in the Baseball Hall of Fame. Of course almost all of these sports writers are rich, old, white dudes who wax poetically about a time when baseball was pure when and honest (you know, back before they let black and brown people play, when players were poorly paid with owners pocketing insane profits, or when much more destructive drugs like amphetamines and cocaine were prevalent in clubhouses) and will decide to ignore some of the greatest players of all time because they used substances that everyone involved in baseball at any level knew were being used.
Anyways, this years ballot is ridiculous. This is in large part because the BBWAA decided to not elect anyone last year in an effort to demonstrate their complete hypocrisy and idiocy.
The names include:
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Gregg Maddux
Mike Mussina
Tom Glavine
Jeff Bagwell
Curt Schilling
Frank Thomas
Larry Walker
Allan Trammel
Rafael Palmeiro
Tim Raines
Edgar Martinez
Craig Biggio
Mark McGwire
Mike Piazza
Sammy Sosa
Jeff Kent
and for some reason Jack Morris
So who do you pick?
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Post by rjp313jr on Jan 1, 2014 20:17:18 GMT -5
Guys I'd vote for:
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Gregg Maddux
Mike Piazza
Tom Glavine
Jeff Bagwell
Curt Schilling
Frank Thomas
Tim Raines
Fred McGriff (a guy I think is one of most under-rated stars of all time)
On the fence on if I think they should be in the HOF and may vote for if there were more then 10 spots:
Jeff Kent
Allan Trammel
Edgar Martinez
Craig Biggio
Mike Mussina
Guys I don't think should be in the HOF:
Mark McGwire
Sammy Sosa
Jack Morris
Larry Walker
Lee Smith
Rafael Palmeiro
Don Mattingly
Kenny Rogers
Luis Gonzalez
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Post by James Dunne on Jan 1, 2014 20:24:34 GMT -5
I don't think McGwire is a Hall of Famer either. Among first basemen who peaked in the 90s and early-00's, he's at best the sixth-best first basemen. Thomas, Bagwell, and Thome are all slam-dunk Hall of Famers to me, and I rate Palmeiro and Helton considerably higher than Mac (I'd vote for Palmeiro, 50/50 on Helton). I'm not sure that McGwire was better than Giambi or McGriff, and I have both of those two out.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jan 2, 2014 21:24:19 GMT -5
I don't think McGwire is a Hall of Famer either. Among first basemen who peaked in the 90s and early-00's, he's at best the sixth-best first basemen. Thomas, Bagwell, and Thome are all slam-dunk Hall of Famers to me, and I rate Palmeiro and Helton considerably higher than Mac (I'd vote for Palmeiro, 50/50 on Helton). I'm not sure that McGwire was better than Giambi or McGriff, and I have both of those two out. McGwire is tied for the 11th highest OPS+ ever. He's a HOFer. |
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Post by James Dunne on Jan 2, 2014 22:17:06 GMT -5
He's "only" 32nd in wOBA, which is a better measure. Taken alone, 32nd would generally earn a HOF vote. However, part of my issue is that it's inflated some because he didn't have a decline phase - He went from productive in 2000 to out of baseball in 2002. It's hard to put him above Giambi and Helton who were about as good as McGwire in their prime, but declined more gradually, resulting in poorer rate stats but greater overall career production.
I'm not vehemently against his candidacy, though. He's better than a lot of players who are in already.
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Post by sdiaz1 on Jan 3, 2014 1:13:36 GMT -5
Though I do agree that McGwire should eventually make the Hall of Fame (obviously I do not really care about the steroid thing), I would have a hard time justifying picking him over some of the other guys on the ballot.
My Hall of Fame Ballot:
Gregg Maddux
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Curt Schilling
Jeff Bagwell
Tim Raines
Allan Trammell
Larry Walker
Frank Thomas
Tom Glavine
With the following guys just missing: Mike Mussina, Rafael Palmeiro, Edgar Martinez, and Mark McGwire.
Also I really would like to see the Veterans Committee to enshrine Minnie Minoso. He Posted 50 WAR, while being frozen out by the Indians until he was 25, and was the first big Latin American Star.
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Post by costpet on Jan 3, 2014 8:38:38 GMT -5
If I was Lord High Commissioner for a day, here's what I would do: Any SIGNIFICANT records made by "juiced" players would be erased. Aaron would still have the HR record. Maris, too. What those guys did was artificial. And now they should be rewarded? Negative. So, that said, here's my HOF ballet:
Maddux
Glavine
Thomas
Bagwell
Trammell (Ned Martin once called him Mr. Wonderful)
Just thinking what Ruth and Williams would have done with a needle. 1000 HRs? Ty Cobb on 'roid rage?
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jan 3, 2014 11:51:13 GMT -5
If I was Lord High Commissioner for a day, here's what I would do: Any SIGNIFICANT records made by "juiced" players would be erased. Aaron would still have the HR record. Maris, too. What those guys did was artificial. And now they should be rewarded? Negative. So, that said, here's my HOF ballet: Maddux Glavine Thomas Bagwell Trammell (Ned Martin once called him Mr. Wonderful) Just thinking what Ruth and Williams would have done with a needle. 1000 HRs? Ty Cobb on 'roid rage?What would their numbers be if Satchel Paige and hundreds of other black players hadn't been robbed of their careers? If people don't want to respect the numbers of "juiced" players, they shouldn't respect the numbers of pre-integration players either. |
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Post by sdiaz1 on Jan 3, 2014 11:53:17 GMT -5
If I was Lord High Commissioner for a day, here's what I would do: Any SIGNIFICANT records made by "juiced" players would be erased. Aaron would still have the HR record. Maris, too. What those guys did was artificial. And now they should be rewarded? Negative. So, that said, here's my HOF .... Just thinking what Ruth and Williams would have done with a needle. 1000 HRs? Ty Cobb on 'roid rage? Not that I have any interest in rehashing the entire Performance Enhancing Drugs and the Hall of Fame argument, but I do think that it is worth noting that the Hall of Fame memorializes and records the history of baseball as a museum, not as some sort of high temple where common men worship the Devine. As such, a museum can not play counterfactuals or propose an alternate history. The players who you wish to keep out are some of the most important players in the history of baseball, they beat records, won awards, world series rings, reinvigorated America's passion for baseball, and helped make everyone rich from the owners to the beat writers who became tv personalities and national columnists. There are many dark moments in baseball, several that are darker than the widespread use of steroids. We have racists and segregationists in the hall of fame, there are anti-Semites, womanizers and wife beaters, drunkards, and overall crappy people who all did worse things than stick a needle in the arse |
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jan 3, 2014 12:02:05 GMT -5
Barry Bonds Roger Clemens Gregg Maddux Mike Mussina Tom Glavine Jeff Bagwell Curt Schilling Frank Thomas Larry Walker Allan Trammel Rafael Palmeiro Tim Raines Edgar Martinez Craig Biggio Mark McGwire Mike Piazza Sammy Sosa Jeff Kent and for some reason Jack Morris So who do you pick? Honestly with the exception of Morris, I wouldn't have a problem with any of those guys in the Hall. Kent, Sosa, and Walker are kind of borderline for me, and Schilling is an interesting case. But it's an absurd ballot. |
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Post by James Dunne on Jan 3, 2014 16:54:14 GMT -5
Honestly with the exception of Morris, I wouldn't have a problem with any of those guys in the Hall. Kent, Sosa, and Walker are kind of borderline for me, and Schilling is an interesting case. But it's an absurd ballot. Agreed. And left off that list was McGriff, who is a marginal candidate who I wouldn't vote for but better than several players who have gotten in. It also didn't list Ray Durham, who isn't a Hall of Famer, but was a really good player with a Hall of Fame-quality anecdote. In 1994, the White Sox were doing their spring drills and tested the vertical leap of all of their minor leaguers. Michael Jordan finished second. Also, will Kenny Rogers get any votes? If not, he'd have to be the best player ever to get totally shut out. Anyhow, I'm just thrilled that one way or another the tired Jack Morris discussion will end after this year. |
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Post by elguapo on Jan 10, 2014 14:44:28 GMT -5
I can't believe it's time to kvetch about this again, already. And I forgot to submit my ballot!
Greg Maddux
Tom Glavine
Jeff Bagwell
Frank Thomas
Larry Walker
Alan Trammell
Tim Raines
Edgar Martinez
Craig Biggio
Mike Piazza
It's kind of pointless voting for Clemens & Bonds - send 'em to the Veterans' committee - but they could be there instead of Martinez & Walker, I guess.
Will Biggio even get in next year? It's hard to measure the lunacy of the voters. Ideally Biggio & Bagwell would go in together.
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Post by jimed14 on Jan 10, 2014 15:18:10 GMT -5
Who are some of the least deserving players in the HOF? My list includes Phil Rizzuto and Bill Mazeroski. It kinda sucks that the standards seem to have changed so much. We can't go by "well if Bill Mazeroski got in, Pedroia is a shoe-in even if he retires tomorrow."
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ericmvan
Veteran
Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 8,932
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Post by ericmvan on Jan 13, 2014 19:47:07 GMT -5
Who are some of the least deserving players in the HOF? My list includes Phil Rizzuto and Bill Mazeroski. It kinda sucks that the standards seem to have changed so much. We can't go by "well if Bill Mazeroski got in, Pedroia is a shoe-in even if he retires tomorrow." Rizzuto would have had legitimate HOF numbers (by the much more generous standard for pre-1960 players) if it weren't for the war, so I have no problem with him. Mazeroski is probably the second-least deserving position player, but, really, the only three bad selections for post-1960 players are him, Lou Brock, and Luis Aparicio (who got in largely and partially for base stealing, respectively). I've been meaning to look up the election details of all of the mistakes, according to my HW metric. In increasing order of badness: Johnny Evers - 1946 Old Timers Travis Jackson - 1982 Veteran's Committee Luis Aparicio - 1984 election, 6th year on ballot Harry Hooper - 1971 VCEdd Roush - 1962 VC Hugh Duffy - 1945 OT Sam Rice - 1963 VC Heinie Manush - 1964 VC Sam Thompson - 1974 VCKing Kelly - 1945 OT Earle Combs - - 1970 VCLou Brock - 1985 election, 1st year on ballot Deacon White - 2013 Pre-Integration Committee Jim O'Rourke - 1945 OT Red Schoendienst - 1989 VC Rabbit Maranville - 1954 election, 14th year on ballot Ross Youngs - 1972 VCJim Bottomley - 1974 VCGeorge Kell - 1983 VC Pie Traynor - 1948 election, 8th year on ballot Freddie Lindstrom - 1976 VCChick Hafey - 1971 VCRick Ferrell - 1984 VC Ray Schalk - 1955 VC Bill Mazeroski - 2001 VC George "High Pockets" Kelly - 1973 VCWow, the VC from 1970 to 1976 was just clueless. And then in 1982-4 they did: Travis Jackson, 27.3 WAR5 / 44.1 WAR George Kell, 22.0 / 37.5 Rick Ferrell, 14.3 / 29.7 before finally getting, in 1985, to Arky Vaughan, 39.1 / 73.0. Ranks 45th in all-time HW. |
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Post by James Dunne on Jan 14, 2014 14:09:56 GMT -5
A few of those 19th Century guys were officially elected as players, but realistically were being honored more for their overall contributions. Take Jim O'Rourke, for example - borderline Hall of Famer as a player (though just on those merits I think I'd rate him more highly than you've given him credit for), but also managed the Buffalo team and was an owner in the Connecticut League where he also served as league president. He also was one of the organizers in the short-lived players league. Not that it's necessarily relevant, but he was an interesting guy too - I encourage anyone who is interested in the 19th century game to check out Mike Roer's biography of him.
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