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Jackie Bradley Jr. - does the glove outweigh the bat?
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Post by mredsox89 on Aug 9, 2014 0:37:32 GMT -5
What's crazy is that he looks every bit as good as defensive metrics make him out to be, if not better
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Post by marrcus on Aug 9, 2014 2:09:29 GMT -5
I didn't think his glove would be this good... I didn't think his bat would be this bad......
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Post by aussiesox on Aug 9, 2014 4:33:59 GMT -5
I'd probably enjoy it more if I was able to see it for more than 2 innings every night...
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Post by gregblossersbelly on Aug 9, 2014 5:26:07 GMT -5
I'd probably enjoy it more if I was able to see it for more than 2 innings every night... With an OPS under 600 he's lucky he's on a non-contending team. If we were battling for a playoff spot, I'd bet he's at Pawtucket.
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Post by bighead on Aug 9, 2014 5:47:33 GMT -5
Is this the fielding version of a walk off home run???
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Post by aussiesox on Aug 9, 2014 6:16:33 GMT -5
I'd probably enjoy it more if I was able to see it for more than 2 innings every night... With an OPS under 600 he's lucky he's on a non-contending team. If we were battling for a playoff spot, I'd bet he's at Pawtucket. You're probably right, given our current record, it's definitely necessary to play Brock Holt and his 2nd half wRC+ of 49 over him 3 out of 4 games.
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Post by godot on Aug 9, 2014 6:53:15 GMT -5
The kid is spider man. He has this extra sense for the ball and wills himself to get it. Well, he is definitely not batman.
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Post by sibbysisti on Aug 9, 2014 7:32:04 GMT -5
If the Sox can surround him with consistent run producers he could be carried for his D. Orioles did it with Paul Blair, Cal. with Gary Pettis to name a few.
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Post by jmei on Aug 9, 2014 10:42:06 GMT -5
There's at least enough potential with the bat (considering his minor league production) that you give him every opportunity to try and figure it out at the major league level. In the meantime, his defense will carry him.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Aug 9, 2014 11:10:47 GMT -5
There's at least enough potential with the bat (considering his minor league production) that you give him every opportunity to try and figure it out at the major league level. In the meantime, his defense will carry him. Does "every opportunity" necessarily include making him a full time starting job next year? Because personally I don't know that a team that's trying to win can afford to do that given that he's actually been worse in the second half. Or might "every opportunity" actually involve taking some of the pressure off his bat by reducing his playing time and trying to get him the platoon advantage more often when he is playing? I lean more towards the second option but I'm curious what people think of this.
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Post by scottysmalls on Aug 9, 2014 11:36:07 GMT -5
This is a ridiculous argument Jackie, without any offensive improvement is an average player. A team can win a world series with an average player in centerfield. It also seems likely that there will be at least some offensive improvement, and if there is he is an extremely valuable player in the Ozzie Smith, Bill Mazeroski mold. He should at least get another season as the center fielder.
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Post by jmei on Aug 9, 2014 11:37:52 GMT -5
He's the presumptive (full-time) starter next year. I don't see them adding a center fielder this offseason, as they have more important needs (rotation, bullpen, third base) to worry about and there aren't any attractive free agent/trade options. If Bradley continues to struggle through the end of this year and early next year, he's at risk of losing some/all of his playing time to Mookie Betts, but that's the only real challenger. Perhaps Bradley's struggles make the front office more hesitant to deal Betts this offseason than they otherwise would be. I don't see any benefit to platooning Bradley this year-- the only way to improve is to keep getting reps, and I'm not sure how benching/platooning him reduces any of the "pressure." He's better off continuing to tinker while the team is non-competitive and seeing if he can figure out a stance that works for him. Platooning him may be more of a consideration next year, though, as they could go with Betts (or even one of Cespedes, Victorino, or Holt) in CF against lefties (though it's worth noting that Bradley has never had significant platoon splits either in the majors or in the minors).
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Post by burythehammer on Aug 9, 2014 11:43:52 GMT -5
I don't think we should give up on a very good prospect after one season, no. Especially when his defense alone makes him an average player making the league minimum. A winning team can "withstand" an average player in their lineup.
If the question is, can we do better? Of course. And they might even have that guy right now in Mookie. If Mookie is a plus defender (not JBJ level) than he probably is better and they'll hand him the job at some point next year. I honestly don't think CF is a huge concern for us.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Aug 9, 2014 13:37:19 GMT -5
This is a ridiculous argument Jackie, without any offensive improvement is an average player. A team can win a world series with an average player in centerfield. It also seems likely that there will be at least some offensive improvement, and if there is he is an extremely valuable player in the Ozzie Smith, Bill Mazeroski mold. He should at least get another season as the center fielder. A team can win a World Series with Julio Lugo at shortstop, but that doesn't make it a good idea.
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Aug 9, 2014 13:39:11 GMT -5
I think the plan is already for Mookie to be in CF next year. They sent him down to give him OF reps and hold on to that extra year of control. As good as JBJ's defence has been ( 16 runs saved and a 28.2 UZR/150 ) his offense has been God awful. Near zero pop. A wRC+ of 61. And this is in 324 mlb AB this year on top of bad numbers last year as well and mediocre numbers in AAA. And his BAPIP this year is a decent .311. He doesn't appear to be unlucky. He just can't make contact at acceptable rates.
And the bottom line is do we have a better option. I think Betts might well be a plus defender before long and a plus offensive CF. We've given JBJ a real shot already and I hope they continue to for the rest of this year, but it ain't happening in 419 mlb AB now. He doesn't appear to make enough contact to be a successful mlb hitter.
Edit: Look at the crop for next year's FA class in CF. It's not very exciting. I don't think we have a solution available beyond Mookie.
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TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,835
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Post by TearsIn04 on Aug 9, 2014 13:49:23 GMT -5
What bothers me about the RS handling of JBJ (and X, too, for that matter) is that they each accumulated a year of service time for subpar production. Boras represents both of them, which means they're here for six years and out. They're both highly likely to be much better players in 2020 (possibly a superstar in the case of X) than they've been in 2014. Now, we won't have their 2020 performance.
Heck, the RS could have secured their 2020 performance just by sending them down for a portion of this season. That way, 2014 wouldn't have counted as a full season.
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Post by cologneredsox on Aug 9, 2014 13:53:52 GMT -5
What bothers me about the RS handling of JBJ (and X, too, for that matter) is that they each accumulated a year of service time for subpar production. Boras represents both of them, which means they're here for six years and out. They're both highly likely to be much better players in 2020 (possibly a superstar in the case of X) than they've been in 2014. Now, we won't have their 2020 performance. Heck, the RS could have secured their 2020 performance just by sending them down for a portion of this season. That way, 2014 wouldn't have counted as a full season. While I agree that this detail is unpleasant, the year of big club experience could work wonders on their performances in the next few years. And both have shown to be able to handle AAA
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Aug 9, 2014 14:02:09 GMT -5
He's the presumptive (full-time) starter next year. I don't see them adding a center fielder this offseason, as they have more important needs (rotation, bullpen, third base) to worry about and there aren't any attractive free agent/trade options. If Bradley continues to struggle through the end of this year and early next year, he's at risk of losing some/all of his playing time to Mookie Betts, but that's the only real challenger. Perhaps Bradley's struggles make the front office more hesitant to deal Betts this offseason than they otherwise would be. I don't see any benefit to platooning Bradley this year-- the only way to improve is to keep getting reps, and I'm not sure how benching/platooning him reduces any of the "pressure." He's better off continuing to tinker while the team is non-competitive and seeing if he can figure out a stance that works for him. Platooning him may be more of a consideration next year, though, as they could go with Betts (or even one of Cespedes, Victorino, or Holt) in CF against lefties (though it's worth noting that Bradley has never had significant platoon splits either in the majors or in the minors). I didn't mean to suggest reducing his playing time this year, but next year there's plenty of internal competition for that job and they can't shield him from it if they're trying to win, which they certainly are. As far as reducing his playing time as a way to help him as a hitter, I think there's something to it. I know he hasn't shown much in the way of platoon splits but I still think almost any batter benefits from avoiding same-side pitching; it's just inherent to baseball. Platoon splits aren't just arbitrary attributes that hitters possess, they have to do with the angle the ball comes at them, how well they can see the ball, the way breaking pitches move, etc. And as far as reducing the playing time goes, maybe that gives him more time to do the tinkering you're talking about, or it makes it harder for the league to adjust to the changes he does make. Or maybe it just keeps him a little fresher physically and helps his bat speed a bit. I'm certainly not convinced that any of these things will actually work for him, but it's not like what they're doing now it working either. At some point you're going to have to change something, both for the team's sake and his.
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TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,835
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Post by TearsIn04 on Aug 9, 2014 14:13:10 GMT -5
What bothers me about the RS handling of JBJ (and X, too, for that matter) is that they each accumulated a year of service time for subpar production. Boras represents both of them, which means they're here for six years and out. They're both highly likely to be much better players in 2020 (possibly a superstar in the case of X) than they've been in 2014. Now, we won't have their 2020 performance. Heck, the RS could have secured their 2020 performance just by sending them down for a portion of this season. That way, 2014 wouldn't have counted as a full season. While I agree that this detail is unpleasant, the year of big club experience could work wonders on their performances in the next few years. And both have shown to be able to handle AAA
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TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,835
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Post by TearsIn04 on Aug 9, 2014 14:19:05 GMT -5
I've wondered whether or not that's true. It's just hard for me to believe that JBJ is benefiting by getting crushed by an 0 for 4 with 2 K's night after night.
And again, they still could have gotten significant ML experience without accumulating a full year of service time if they had just spent a couple of months at Pawtucket. It was obvious pretty early on that JBJ was struggling big-time with the bat. I would rather have seen him spend his summer in Pawtucket trying to work things out. That way, we'd have his All-Star 2020 season could be spent at Fenway, not with the NYY, LAD or some other organization willing to make a big overpay.
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Post by jmei on Aug 9, 2014 14:26:28 GMT -5
I keep hearing this, and it's just not true. Bradley hit .275/.374/.469 (137 wRC+) in 374 AAA plate appearances. That's better than Xander's career AAA line. Bradley has sure struggled in the majors, but he put up terrific numbers in Pawtucket last year.
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Post by 11mikem on Aug 9, 2014 14:33:07 GMT -5
OK, here's a question for the coaches out there. Watching the ESPN broadcast a few nights ago, the analyst mentioned how Bradley was using a dysfunctional toe tap timing mechanism that added moving parts to his swing and was actually ruining his timing. Looking at his ABs after that, all I could see was that toe tap and how the analysis seemed absolutely spot on. Surely the Sox hitting coach has seen the same thing. So, the question is: Why would Bradley hang on to something that seems so counterproductive?
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Post by larrycook on Aug 9, 2014 14:50:16 GMT -5
Bradley is searching at the moment and tying to figure it all out. He needs a good 800 at bats before we will know whatis true hitting potential is.
Meanwhile betts is really swinging the bat well, but he needs time in the outfield and learning to play the outfield before he can be a starter at boston.
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Post by jmei on Aug 9, 2014 14:52:55 GMT -5
As far as reducing his playing time as a way to help him as a hitter, I think there's something to it. I know he hasn't shown much in the way of platoon splits but I still think almost any batter benefits from avoiding same-side pitching; it's just inherent to baseball. Platoon splits aren't just arbitrary attributes that hitters possess, they have to do with the angle the ball comes at them, how well they can see the ball, the way breaking pitches move, etc. And as far as reducing the playing time goes, maybe that gives him more time to do the tinkering you're talking about, or it makes it harder for the league to adjust to the changes he does make. Or maybe it just keeps him a little fresher physically and helps his bat speed a bit. I'm certainly not convinced that any of these things will actually work for him, but it's not like what they're doing now it working either. At some point you're going to have to change something, both for the team's sake and his. All players have platoon splits, but some players have smaller ones than others, and Bradley seems like one of those guys with relatively mild platoon splits. Platooning Bradley may improve his triple-slash somewhat (and may be a necessary way of getting, say, Victorino or Betts the playing time they need next year), but I'm not sure it's really going to help him become a significantly better player. The narrative is usually the opposite w/r/t reduced playing time-- that only playing a guy part-time means he can't get in a rhythm and makes it harder for him to maintain his timing/mechanics. Mike Carp was a guy who constantly chafed about not getting steady playing time, and similar arguments were made on these boards to argue against the idea of platooning Middlebrooks (a guy who does have huge platoon splits, btw). Frankly, I find neither set of arguments all that convincing and think they're mostly just post-hoc rationalizations. I'm of the opinion that a guy will play to his true-talent level regardless, and for a contender like the 2015 Red Sox, it's more about what role is best for maximizing overall team production rather than what role is best for a guy's personal player development. Maybe that means a Betts/Bradley platoon is the solution, but I tend to think the most likely scenario is that either Bradley will improve his hitting enough that he starts full-time, or he doesn't and is supplanted by Betts.
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Aug 9, 2014 14:55:08 GMT -5
I keep hearing this, and it's just not true. Bradley hit .275/.374/.469 (137 wRC+) in 374 AAA plate appearances. That's better than Xander's career AAA line. Bradley has sure struggled in the majors, but he put up terrific numbers in Pawtucket last year. Point taken, but we need to expect guys to put up big numbers in AAA if we are to be likely to get good numbers in mlb. I accept that Bradley's AA and AAA numbers indicate a better offensive performance level than we are getting in mlb, but a .271 and a .277 average in AA and AAA is not indicative of more than a .240-250 level in mlb. We would be happy with that even but I don't think Bradley's AA and AA performance necessarily projects more than that. Zips has him at .235 and Steamer at .240. To me, Bradley's offense in AAA was not "terrific". Compare his numbers offensively to Betts at the same levels. It's no comparison, and Betts can probably be an above average CF one would think with his speed and athleticism. The bottom line is play JBJ the rest of this year to give him every chance to produce but there is not that much basis to expect he will improve (Edit: enough to keep Betts out of the lineup).
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