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Post by michaelgelbwasser on May 29, 2014 14:18:06 GMT -5
Brock Holt looks more and more like a better utility infield option than Jonathan Herrera.
Holt has hit safely in eight of his last nine games, with 6 runs scored and 2 RBI during this stretch.
I know Herrera offers slightly more position flexibility. But, I'd keep Holt as the UI when Drew is activated.
Thoughts?
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Post by ibsmith85 on May 29, 2014 14:52:19 GMT -5
I'm not sure if I've mentioned this before, but **** Jonathan Herrera, DFA him immediately, he does nothing well and he's an ******* to boot.
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Post by mattpicard on May 29, 2014 15:22:22 GMT -5
Farrell floating the idea of playing Xander at SS vs. LHP's (when Drew arrives) only bolsters the case for Holt over Herrera. Nothing needs to be said about why Holt provides far greater offensive value. As for the defensive concerns, much of what people worry about with Holt is also true of Herrera. Both are really second baseman (even though Herrera came up in the minors as a SS), and whatever advantages in range, arm strength, and hands the latter possesses over the former are quite marginal. Plus, in absence of an injury, we're talking about maybe a handful of games where we'd need one of the two to start at SS.
The more interesting question is how do the Red Sox handle the activation of WMB off the DL, whenever that may be?
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Post by Chris Hatfield on May 29, 2014 22:12:35 GMT -5
I think they only want to keep Holt up if he's going to play. It's not necessarily which guy is better - it's whether there's a use for Holt.
Once Middlebrooks is healthy, there's no room for either if everyone is healthy, really.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on May 29, 2014 22:22:41 GMT -5
When Drew arrives, Holt is the logical choice until Middlebrooks returns. The main difference being, we would then have two SS. Covering SS was the reason for Herrera over Holt in the first place.
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Post by James Dunne on May 29, 2014 22:28:57 GMT -5
I think they only want to keep Holt up if he's going to play. It's not necessarily which guy is better - it's whether there's a use for Holt. Once Middlebrooks is healthy, there's no room for either if everyone is healthy, really. You're probably right, but I'd argue that Holt's versatility makes him a better backup option than Middlebrooks. That and the fact that there's a good chance that Holt is simply a better player, period. On top of that, Holt is pretty much the player he's going to be - backup infielder/marginal starter. If Middlebrooks still has a chance to be a major league starter, shouldn't he be playing every day in Pawtucket?
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Post by mattpicard on May 29, 2014 23:16:51 GMT -5
I think they only want to keep Holt up if he's going to play. It's not necessarily which guy is better - it's whether there's a use for Holt. Once Middlebrooks is healthy, there's no room for either if everyone is healthy, really. I hear that to a degree, but what do we really gain in the future from having Holt play full time in AAA? He's not a prospect anymore, and his limitations at shortstop are more attributable to his physical nature, not experience. As James mentioned, WMB is the one who really could stand to benefit from playing everyday, and it's clearly not in the best interests of the Red Sox for that to happen on their club. Holt, on the other hand, is a useful player whose hitting style and development aren't likely to suffer much even if he's only grabbing one start per week.
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Brock Holt
May 29, 2014 23:59:47 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by klostrophobic on May 29, 2014 23:59:47 GMT -5
What is the basis for the idea that Holt has no development left, yet Middlebrooks does? They're the same age. Is it just their perceived ceilings?
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Post by mattpicard on May 30, 2014 0:18:28 GMT -5
What is the basis for the idea that Holt has no development left, yet Middlebrooks does? They're the same age. Is it just their perceived ceilings? I'm just making a judgment call. I see Holt's ceiling being a capable everyday second baseman. Maybe a .285/.340/.350 hitter with average to plus defense at 2B and mediocre to average defense when filling in on the left side. I don't see much in the way of significant improvement that's yet to be made -- he's had 556 plate appearances in AAA, and 1,011 in AA, and has eased into the hitter scouts have thought he could be at the major league level. He's not going to add a bunch of power or improve his fielding skill set enough to become a plus SS. WMB on the other hand has 366 plate appearances at AAA, and had 397 at AA. Being a guy with immense pitch recognition and plate discipline issues on a team competing for a playoff spot with superior alternatives, it just feels like you're costing him some time to work on improving his flaws (that is, if you believe he has a chance to improve them -- some, including myself, are starting to grow skeptical. Should we just use him as a platoon player, where he'll provide some legitimate pop and undoubtedly be worth inserting into the lineup over Drew vs. LHP, and not worry about his development? Sure, there's a good case to be made for that, but the point is just that he could stand to work more on his development than Holt). There's also the concern that, even if he works hard and has better results in AAA, MLB pitching could still eat him up whenever he is to return. Regardless, there's just a lot of necessary development/improvement I see him needing to make if he's to be an everyday player, where as Holt seems to be a guy who's using his skills to the best of his ability, and is is held back more by physical traits than glaring holes in his approach.
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Post by klostrophobic on May 30, 2014 0:29:23 GMT -5
OK, that all seems pretty fair; I didn't consider the stark contrast in plate appearances. I'm all for using Middlebrooks in a platoon role at this point, for whatever that's worth.
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Post by mattpicard on May 30, 2014 0:42:15 GMT -5
OK, that all seems pretty fair; I didn't consider the stark contrast in plate appearances. I'm all for using Middlebrooks in a platoon role at this point, for whatever that's worth. Might as well, right? In 2012, 2013, and so far this season, he's eclipsed a 100 wRC+ vs. LHP (Drew has a 74 wRC+ in his career against southpaws), and he also posts much better BB% and K% rates against them. Not sure how many "lost seasons" he can afford to have on his quest to become a solid starting 3B, but at this point, it doesn't seem like it'd be that harmful to him to just keep him around to hit lefties. I'm just not sure he gets his job handed back to him in 2015 like he did this season.
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Post by moonstone2 on May 30, 2014 6:16:04 GMT -5
MRI on Lavarnway's wrist. If he's hurt they both stay.
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Post by jimed14 on May 30, 2014 7:18:23 GMT -5
I think they only want to keep Holt up if he's going to play. It's not necessarily which guy is better - it's whether there's a use for Holt. Once Middlebrooks is healthy, there's no room for either if everyone is healthy, really. You're probably right, but I'd argue that Holt's versatility makes him a better backup option than Middlebrooks. That and the fact that there's a good chance that Holt is simply a better player, period. On top of that, Holt is pretty much the player he's going to be - backup infielder/marginal starter. If Middlebrooks still has a chance to be a major league starter, shouldn't he be playing every day in Pawtucket? This brings me to my point of not really wanting Drew, but ignoring that, I'd make the best of it for this season by having the better lineup vs. LHP. We really seem to be missing a RH bat right now. I want no part of having to see Drew playing against LHP again this year. Though I'm sure we will, way too much.
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Post by okin15 on May 30, 2014 8:26:25 GMT -5
Holt is a less good platoon for the Sox because of that whole bats lefty thing (though J Herrera is really a LHH as well). I dunno if it's that or the need to get consistent at bats, but together, they probably send Holt to AAA when Drew is ready. In my scenario, Middlebrooks would eventually replace Herrera, and platoon with Drew.
I'll leave my Lavarnway replacement contemplations for a more appropriate thread, but I don't think that Holt or Herrara would be involved, as it needs to be a RHH bat.
ADD: Since Herrera has 2 options, he's a good guy to keep around this year (via option if needed). If next year, the Sox enter the season with Xander at SS and a Holt/WMB platoon at 3B, Herrera would be good insurance to have at AAA.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jun 2, 2014 13:26:16 GMT -5
Welp, so much for this being an issue. Even when Napoli comes back Sunday, Hassan is likely the one who goes.
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 3, 2014 8:26:58 GMT -5
Welp, so much for this being an issue. Even when Napoli comes back Sunday, Hassan is likely the one who goes. Having a hard time sorting out the injuries, but don't we kinda need another OF with Victorino and Carp out?
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Post by iakovos11 on Jun 3, 2014 8:45:27 GMT -5
That's what Holt is for. He can play any position
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Post by amfox1 on Jun 3, 2014 9:30:43 GMT -5
Welp, so much for this being an issue. Even when Napoli comes back Sunday, Hassan is likely the one who goes. Having a hard time sorting out the injuries, but don't we kinda need another OF with Victorino and Carp out? Nava covers ShaneO and Carp was the 13th man.
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Post by terriblehondo on Jun 14, 2014 20:36:56 GMT -5
I think Brock Holt is making a serious case for himself. I like this kid a lot(It's probably the high socks). While I do not think he is the defender that Zobrist is he has at least shown he can play them a bit. Hell he might be the 2nd best outfielder on the team right now. The position flexibility he has shown along with the fact he can hit leadoff makes him pretty valuable to me.
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Post by mgoetze on Jun 14, 2014 22:19:41 GMT -5
This thread is obsolete.
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 13,976
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Post by cdj on Jun 14, 2014 23:24:50 GMT -5
Holt should be on this team going forward (see- Next year) just for what he brings in positional flexibility off the bench. I don't think he can maintain this offense, but he should put up respectable numbers at the very least. He has a great approach up there.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Jun 15, 2014 0:32:59 GMT -5
We should rename this thread Brock Holt.
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Post by jmei on Jun 15, 2014 10:48:01 GMT -5
I'm still not really sure how good of a true-talent player Brock Holt is. Since he started getting regular playing time on May 17th, he's hit .327/.353/.460, which is obviously great. But that's with a with a 4.2% BB, 19.2% K, and .400 BABIP, which certainly screams regression. All this despite a pretty pedestrian 21.1% LD, 47.8% GB, 31.1% FB, 10.7% IFFB batted ball profile.
I'm fine with playing him and hitting him leadoff while he's hot, but once so many of his balls in play stop falling in for hits, he's probably a league-average bat at best (ZiPS projetcs .270/.322/.347, 84 wRC+; Steamer projects .284/.334/.375, 95 wRC+). That's certainly good enough to make him a great utility guy and depth option, but when everyone's healthy, I'm not sure he fits as a starter anywhere. Maybe he gets a few starts in RF versus tough righties (spelling Victorino; I assume Sizemore is cut by the end of the month) or maybe even spelling Drew versus lefties (with Bogaerts moving to SS and Holt at 3B), but I don't particularly want Holt getting reps in LF over the Nava/Gomes platoon or at 1B over Napoli or 3B over Bogaerts.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jun 15, 2014 11:44:24 GMT -5
I'm fine with playing him and hitting him leadoff while he's hot, but once so many of his balls in play stop falling in for hits, he's probably a league-average bat at best (ZiPS projetcs .270/.322/.347, 84 wRC+; Steamer projects .284/.334/.375, 95 wRC+). That's certainly good enough to make him a great utility guy and depth option, but when everyone's healthy, I'm not sure he fits as a starter anywhere. Maybe he gets a few starts in RF versus tough righties (spelling Victorino; I assume Sizemore is cut by the end of the month) or maybe even spelling Drew versus lefties (with Bogaerts moving to SS and Holt at 3B), but I don't particularly want Holt getting reps in LF over the Nava/Gomes platoon or at 1B over Napoli or 3B over Bogaerts. He doesn't, but he's the perfect utility guy for a team that's already carrying two regulars who can handle shortstop. Of course, managers aren't very good at figuring that out (for instance the Yankees always carried a utility guy who was primarily a SS even when Alex Rodriguez could have been their backup there), and I have little faith in Farrell's ability/willingness to be unconventional in any way.
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jimoh
Veteran
Posts: 3,966
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Post by jimoh on Jun 30, 2014 10:55:37 GMT -5
Nice fangraphs piece, with gifs of his preposterosu debuts at various positions: www.fangraphs.com/blogs/brock-holt-leak-plugger/"So what’s changed? First, Holt, a lefty, is crushing left-handed pitching. ..... It’s been Holt’s ability to hit left-handed pitching that has allowed the Red Sox to leave him atop their lineup every day. Holt has always had good bat-to-ball abilities. His career 87% contact rate rests well above the league average of 80%. Difference is, it appears thus far that Holt is beginning to understand his zone better. ...Brock Holt spent his first two stints in the majors swinging away at high cheese to little success. Now, it appears he has a better grasp on his zone, swinging at the pitches he should be swinging at, rather than the ones the pitcher wants him to. And baserunning? Holt has been the Red Sox most valuable baserunner this year, too, with five steals and 11 extra bases taken in just 47 games."
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