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Red Sox 2012 Offseason
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 4, 2012 10:55:57 GMT -5
Everyone, a PSA about the use of this thread going forward, or it's just going to get locked up:
If you want to talk generally about the Red Sox offseason in here, super. Even if you want to talk about a specific move within that greater context, fine. That's the point here.
However, we're getting a lot of duplicative conversation right now. The above conversation about the Napoli move should have gone in the thread about the Napoli signing. Future discussion on the move should go in there. If a rumor comes out, start a thread. Don't just post things in here as a catch-all.
I feel sometimes like people aren't paying attention to what thread they're posting in. We keep things looser in the offseason, but just please be mindful of what you're doing when you're posting.
Thanks everyone.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Dec 4, 2012 11:02:21 GMT -5
You missed the point that I was going for: not that the players were/were not performing at that level but that the architecture calls for a certain requirement for building a team that includes 2 premium middle of the order talents and 1 more top of the rotation starter. There's nothing specific to the players themselves, just that the equation itself now has placeholders where require addition. I respect your opinion if you think that you can build a championship level team with non-elite talent, though I'm not personally a believer in that philosophy being successful without an overwhelming amount of luck. And I've never advocated the "big move" for any reason other than to replace that elite talent that has been lost and which I view as an essential part of the equation. Mike Napoli isn't blocking a premium middle of the order bat. For one thing, he's got a pretty good chance to be that guy in Fenway, but more importantly, there isn't a first baseman in the system or available in trade who's likely to be better by any significant margin. The Red Sox had nothing at first, and they brought in a guy who's pretty damn good if not elite for a reasonable contract. That's the definition of good teambuilding. I know those great offensive Red Sox teams had Ortiz and Manny. Well, they also had Kevin Millar.
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Post by jmei on Dec 4, 2012 11:11:39 GMT -5
You missed the point that I was going for: not that the players were/were not performing at that level but that the architecture calls for a certain requirement for building a team that includes 2 premium middle of the order talents and 1 more top of the rotation starter. There's nothing specific to the players themselves, just that the equation itself now has placeholders where require addition. I respect your opinion if you think that you can build a championship level team with non-elite talent, though I'm not personally a believer in that philosophy being successful without an overwhelming amount of luck. And I've never advocated the "big move" for any reason other than to replace that elite talent that has been lost and which I view as an essential part of the equation. I just don't think having multiple elite players was ever a prerequisite for title contention. The 2012 Giants had one good hitter, the 2011 Cardinals relied on four good pitchers rather than one ace (although you could argue Carpenter was an ace), the 2010 Giants had one good hitter, etc. More importantly, it's not like the current roster is barren of talent. Pedroia is the best second baseman in the game, Ortiz has been elite the last two years, Ellsbury was an MVP candidate just a year ago, Napoli was the best hitter in baseball a year ago-- and I can go on. You might have a point if this team looked like the Mariners (seriously, I have no idea why they're in on so many free agents), but there's a solid core in place already, and I think a handful of moves can push this team into playoff contender status while the next wave of talent gets ready to emerge.
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Post by soxfan06 on Dec 4, 2012 11:18:11 GMT -5
Haren gets 1/$13
Damn...I would have loved that from Boston.
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Post by jmei on Dec 4, 2012 11:18:40 GMT -5
I moved some Mike Napoli posts to the Mike Napoli thread.
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Post by honkbal on Dec 4, 2012 11:29:31 GMT -5
Haren gets 1/$13 Damn...I would have loved that from Boston. I'm a little disappointed, too. I'm assuming this means the Red Sox don't like the chances of his bouncing back from this injury.
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Post by leo on Dec 4, 2012 12:17:49 GMT -5
Haren gets 1/$13 Damn...I would have loved that from Boston. Good, means we're still in on Anibal Sanchez. Dude is born '84, has been very consistent over the past three years, and hasn't pitched all that much before. He throws strikes, and his walk rate is on a decline. Would be a great pick up to solidify the middle/end of our rotation for years to come.
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Post by bluechip on Dec 4, 2012 12:48:22 GMT -5
Haren gets 1/$13 Damn...I would have loved that from Boston. Good, means we're still in on Anibal Sanchez. Dude is born '84, has been very consistent over the past three years, and hasn't pitched all that much before. He throws strikes, and his walk rate is on a decline. Would be a great pick up to solidify the middle/end of our rotation for years to come. With the money Sanchez is going to command, must be better than a back of the rotation starter.
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Post by buffs4444 on Dec 4, 2012 12:49:09 GMT -5
I just don't think having multiple elite players was ever a prerequisite for title contention. The 2012 Giants had one good hitter, the 2011 Cardinals relied on four good pitchers rather than one ace (although you could argue Carpenter was an ace), the 2010 Giants had one good hitter, etc. More importantly, it's not like the current roster is barren of talent. Pedroia is the best second baseman in the game, Ortiz has been elite the last two years, Ellsbury was an MVP candidate just a year ago, Napoli was the best hitter in baseball a year ago-- and I can go on. You might have a point if this team looked like the Mariners (seriously, I have no idea why they're in on so many free agents), but there's a solid core in place already, and I think a handful of moves can push this team into playoff contender status while the next wave of talent gets ready to emerge. Understood on the multiple elite players, and that's where I was factoring in luck coming into play. So a Cody Ross gets hot and provides that other hitter complementing Posey. And completely agree with the rest of the roster being solid, but it still lacks that one hitter (I'm not counting on 37/38-year old Ortiz being that force, but that's just me). It's more likely that Ellsbury or Pedroia or Ortiz provides that second bat, but each comes with their own "if". I love each of those guys on this team, but my comfort level with relying on them as "the guy" in the lineup makes me uneasy. After a few months of jmei-buffs conversations, maybe I'll come around on that though, brother.
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Post by dcri on Dec 4, 2012 12:53:15 GMT -5
According to ESPN, these are the FA SPs remaining on the market. Greinke probably is going to one of the LA teams for far more than the Sox are willing to pay. Sanchez has Boros as his agent. and won't be an easy, or inexpensive, sign. Those are the only two on the list who I think really are elite, although there are a few others who could slide into the middle of a rotation. What should the Sox do? Zack Greinke, RHP Anibal Sanchez, RHP Kyle Lohse, RHP Edwin Jackson, RHP Brandon McCarthy, RHP Ryan Dempster, RHP Francisco Liriano, LHP Shaun Marcum, RHP Roy Oswalt, RHP Joe Saunders, LHP Daisuke Matsuzaka, RHP
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Post by MLBDreams on Dec 4, 2012 12:56:30 GMT -5
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Post by Oregon Norm on Dec 4, 2012 13:02:55 GMT -5
They've had a good relationship with Boros. I'd hope they could be in on Sanchez, but the years will probably be the sticking point. That memo from Lucchino the other day was probably routed directly to Scott Boros, certified delivery.
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Post by GyIantosca on Dec 4, 2012 13:03:30 GMT -5
I think Ben is trying hard to do as little as possible because he really loves the kids. This is how I am reading this offseason so far. I pray he hangs in there.
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Post by leo on Dec 4, 2012 13:27:22 GMT -5
I think Ben is trying hard to do as little as possible because he really loves the kids. This is how I am reading this offseason so far. I pray he hangs in there. Good news is, Red Sox have cash, and Sanchez does not demand a draft pick. He's IMO the best option out there (behind Greinke), and after what I've seen last season, we desperately need a good starter to solidify this rotation. Assuming that Lester and Lackey will perform well is a much bigger risk than assuming that we will get a few solid years out of Sanchez.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Dec 4, 2012 13:27:38 GMT -5
Haren gets 1/$13 Damn...I would have loved that from Boston. I'm a little disappointed, too. I'm assuming this means the Red Sox don't like the chances of his bouncing back from this injury. The fact that he got a one year deal in an offseason where BJ Upton got $70m coming off a sub-.300 OBP season means that the entire industry views his health as Brandon Webb-ian.
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Post by Steve Henley on Dec 4, 2012 13:56:32 GMT -5
The fact that he got a one year deal in an offseason where BJ Upton got $70m coming off a sub-.300 OBP season means that the entire industry views his health as Brandon Webb-ian. Agreed. Also, if he was only offered one-year deals it makes more sense for a pitcher to sign a handcuff contract with Washington than Boston even if Boston offered 1-2 million more (easier league/division overall, less of a hitters park, better chance for playoffs, etc)
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Post by mredsox89 on Dec 4, 2012 14:12:18 GMT -5
Rosenthal: Sources: #Rangers, Hamilton making progress. Deal, if reached, likely would be 4 yrs. But still possible another team could beat TEX offer.
Well if Hamilton is willing to take 4 years, I'd certainly love the Sox to put the full on press. Even if it takes 5 years to pry him from Texas
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Post by bluechip on Dec 4, 2012 14:33:38 GMT -5
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Post by mjammz on Dec 4, 2012 15:29:37 GMT -5
According to Heyman Shane Victorino is down to 3 teams. The Indians, Red Sox and a mystery team. Looks like it could be decided tonight.
Would much rather Swisher, but Victorino brings GG defense and some speed/character. Hopefully if they do sign him its for 2 years and bigger money.
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Post by bluechip on Dec 4, 2012 16:00:25 GMT -5
According to Heyman Shane Victorino is down to 3 teams. The Indians, Red Sox and a mystery team. Looks like it could be decided tonight. Would much rather Swisher, but Victorino brings GG defense and some speed/character. Hopefully if they do sign him its for 2 years and bigger money. Victorino looks like the most likely right fielder at this point.
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Post by mjammz on Dec 4, 2012 16:02:30 GMT -5
Even if the Red Sox do sign Shane Victorino, I'm not sure that takes them out of the Nick Swisher or another OF picture. Here is why.
We are all just assuming that Jonny Gomes is going to be the primary LF and I just don't believe that. We have heard LL say multiple times this off-season that he wants a team with deep depth at all positions. Going into the offseason the Sox OF was barren except for Ellsbury who is gone in 12 months, so they needed to sign at least 2 OF, probably 3. Victorino can play all 3 OF spots and provide insurance at midseason if the team wants to trade Ellsbury or when he leaves next year. He would provide some lineup balance, allthough not much because he struggle against RH.
Victorino would give the Red Sox another CF if JBJ isn't ready to play everyday next season, so if Victorino fills all those holes, they still need another OF. Even if it's not Swisher I think the Red Sox sign TWO more OF this off-season, because Im sure as hell not counting on Kalish and Nava was badly exposed after his hot start.
And of course the Red Sox have the money to spend and have said they want to spread the money around on short term deals.
With Victorino if it comes down to the Red Sox and Indians, I don't know how the Indians win this one.
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Post by mjammz on Dec 4, 2012 16:08:45 GMT -5
Nick Cafardo reports the Red Sox are the front runners for Victorino. Offered 3 for 38.. this has a feeling it could drop any minute and definitely tonight.
RE
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Post by mredsox89 on Dec 4, 2012 16:09:52 GMT -5
Cafardo: Sox are frontrunners for Victorino @ 3/38, so essentially the same contract on the surface as Napoli. 6 straight years of 3+ WAR. Seems like he's been extremely consistent in producing on the base paths and in the field, and then whatever variation in his WAR has been with his bat. I'd certainly be happy with Victorino at that price.
The deal also depends on what they end up doing with Ellsbury
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Post by bluechip on Dec 4, 2012 16:10:49 GMT -5
Nick Cafardo reports the Red Sox are the front runners for Victorino. Offered 3 for 38.. this has a feeling it could drop any minute and definitely tonight. RE Yuck. Gordon Edes: Dodger source on Victorino: "Just tremendous in the clubhouse for us, got on guys, a real leader, but the decline [in skills] starting" I really do not want to pay for an OF with declining skills. Especially if he locks up the RF position for three years.
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Post by sibbysisti on Dec 4, 2012 16:14:34 GMT -5
Don't give him a NT clause.
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