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7/14 ML Gameday Thread: Buttrey rehabs in Lowell
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Jul 14, 2014 15:00:05 GMT -5
I don't think I've ever seen the Sox preaching taking walks. I think there's a lot of misconceptions about exactly what being disciplined entails. If a batter thinks he can make solid contact with the first pitch of an AB, he should definitely be trying to do just that. On the other hand, just because the first pitch is a strike, doesn't mean he should be swinging either.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Jul 14, 2014 15:08:08 GMT -5
Wrong thread here and mods might want to move it..
Exactly how much time did britton miss might I ask? Memory serves me correct.. He missed an entire season and he didn't have negative issues toward the arresting officers.
As for different penalties to different people based on "attitude afterwards". yeah.. I guess the penal system should be based on that also? Hah..
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Post by okin15 on Jul 14, 2014 15:13:00 GMT -5
I thought Britton's offense was during ST, that he was immediately demoted to minor league ST and that he started the season opener a few weeks later.
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Post by chavopepe2 on Jul 14, 2014 15:19:13 GMT -5
Wrong thread here and mods might want to move it.. Exactly how much time did britton miss might I ask? Memory serves me correct.. He missed an entire season and he didn't have negative issues toward the arresting officers. As for different penalties to different people based on "attitude afterwards". yeah.. I guess the penal system should be based on that also? Hah.. You're probably thinking of Kukuk who only threw 10 innings after his arrest in 2012.
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Post by jmei on Jul 14, 2014 15:23:26 GMT -5
I don't think I've ever seen the Sox preaching taking walks. I think there's a lot of misconceptions about exactly what being disciplined entails. If a batter thinks he can make solid contact with the first pitch of an AB, he should definitely be trying to do just that. On the other hand, just because the first pitch is a strike, doesn't mean he should be swinging either. Yeah, the Red Sox have always preached "selective aggression," which is the idea that you should only swing at pitches you can handle. That may mean not offering at anything if the pitcher doesn't give you anything to hit or taking a borderline outside strike that you couldn't have done anything with, but it also means swinging at the first pitch if it's a pitch you can drive.
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Post by quintanariffic on Jul 14, 2014 16:11:02 GMT -5
I don't think I've ever seen the Sox preaching taking walks. I think there's a lot of misconceptions about exactly what being disciplined entails. If a batter thinks he can make solid contact with the first pitch of an AB, he should definitely be trying to do just that. On the other hand, just because the first pitch is a strike, doesn't mean he should be swinging either. Yeah, the Red Sox have always preached "selective aggression," which is the idea that you should only swing at pitches you can handle. That may mean not offering at anything if the pitcher doesn't give you anything to hit or taking a borderline outside strike that you couldn't have done anything with, but it also means swinging at the first pitch if it's a pitch you can drive. Which was exactly my point. Not sure how you can trust or otherwise support the observations of this MLB panel when they haven't even correctly identified what the Red Sox ml philosophy is. They are reacting to some cartoon-ish caricature that sounds more like Joe Morgan's perspective than that of someone who is actually familiar with the Red Sox approach. The reality is that there is no history of heralded, high-OBP Red Sox prospects floundering in MLB. Those who are currently struggling (Bradley, Bogaerts) are so young, and have such small sample sizes, that any attempt to draw definitive conclusions about their careers is foolhardy. There are just as many counter-examples of players who don't fit that mold at all (WMB, Rizzo). And if we are going to try and support that point by dipping into the current pool of minor leaguers (e.g. Cechinni), then why not point to guys like Hassan who have displayed a very different trajectory in terms of SLG in the upper levels? I'll save you the time of writing a response by telling you why. Whoever uttered this opinion on the MLB panel is unfamiliar with the Red Sox ml approach other than some vague notion that the Sox are a "Moneyball" team and must therefore value OBP and walks above all else. Surely this perspective can be confirmed when looking at a few, cherry-picked and incomplete examples from 2014. Of course, it doesn't hold up when taking a longer view, or when speaking with those who are actually familiar with what the Red Sox preach. Why anyone on this board, which is supposed to be populated with people knowledgeable about the Sox ml approach, would parrot those beliefs is beyond me. That speaks more to intellectual laziness than any fair-minded observation of the facts.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jul 14, 2014 18:54:08 GMT -5
Yeah if you're starting with the premise that the Red Sox teach a passive plate approach, you're starting with a faulty premise. What jmei and quint said. As for Bradley's strikeouts looking, you can get that information on this very site: www.soxprospects.com/stats/hitting.php?split=0&page=1&sortby=Look&team=111&year=2014&type=2&min=031.7% of his strikeouts have been looking, which is middle-of-the-pack. Nava, for example, has looked at a lot more strike threes, by percentage, than Bradley. Napoli, who is hitting just fine, has both struck out more and looked at more strike threes than Bradley. Now, Bradley has just plain struck out a lot (third on the team with 82, behind Bogaerts (89) and Napoli (87), and far ahead of the next hitter, Gomes (62)), which might be why it seems like he's looked at a lot of strike threes. But the fact is he just wasn't hitting well for a long time, looking at strike threes as well as swinging and missing on strike threes. So I don't really think it's necessarily an approach thing as much of a "he was failing as a general premise" thing. The looking at good pitches that some of you have said you've noticed could be a chicken-egg thing - when you're not hitting, some hitters more inclined to be passive and wait for the perfect pitch. We see this in the minors a lot - when a guy isn't hitting well but walking and striking out a lot, and people are like "well at least he's walking" when in reality he's just not swinging and guys can't throw strikes. In the majors, you fail with that approach. My guess is his failure spiraled into passivity and then getting into bad counts where he'd both look and swing at bad pitches. Since the stance adjustment, he's got 9 strikeouts in 70 plate appearances (13%) as compared to 73 in 236 (31%). He also has 5 walks (7%) compared to 22 before the switch (9%), so I'm inclined to think that it's not necessarily that he's being less passive than that he's swinging at better pitches. This could very well be tied to being more aggressive though, so I'll let someone pull more advanced data for that.
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Post by jmei on Jul 14, 2014 19:11:37 GMT -5
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Post by mgoetze on Jul 14, 2014 19:40:21 GMT -5
Surprisingly, Jon Denney is in the lineup for the GCL Red Sox. I didn't think he would play at all this year. Oh great, can't wait to continue that discussion. ...the obvious continuation being "he's awful as a hitter, let's convert him to a pitcher before it's too late!"
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Post by godot on Jul 14, 2014 19:40:53 GMT -5
Although the Sox say they teach a "selective aggressive" approach, do we know how consistent they are in these instructions or whether they are also sending contradictory messages like "grind it out" and build up pitch count. I doubt it, but do we really know. And why use the term 'selective aggressive', when the traditional way of "be ready to hit but decide whether it is a pitch you can hit" does the job. Oh well. There are also attitudes expressed on the board by some that suggest the goal is taking a many pitches as possible and walking is almost god like and the measure of all things, which of course does not mean that this is what the Sox are teaching. But many of the hitters do go deep into the count and seem to take many good pitches.
It is not easy to recognize what you can hit, and it takes time to learn this at the major league level, where you sometimes have to learn all over again. More than likely Bradley is seeing the ball better and Xander is learning. Vasquez seems to be looking for pitches he can handle, and I do not know what Middlebrooks is doing (nor does he). One minor league hitting coach at a lower level said that he first watches what they do and takes it from there. It is easy to confuse them when they start he added.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Jul 14, 2014 20:07:05 GMT -5
Saw in tweet, Nick Moore with his 2nd HR. Spinners up 7-4 in the 7th.
I'm guessing top post is incorrect, game time was 7:05 and box says Venue: Edward A. LeLacheur Park.
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Post by iakovos11 on Jul 14, 2014 20:45:29 GMT -5
4 innings 4K's 2BB's no hits for Buttrey
Nick Moore with 2 HR's - and 2K's.
17 hits for Lowell. Check out the box score to see how many your favorite prospect had
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Jul 14, 2014 21:15:14 GMT -5
Danny Mars now hitting .390 with 1.000+ OPS and has stolen 3 bases (6 attempts/14 games).
Probably the best start of this year's draft crop and particularly impressive for a HS kid in the NYPL. It's early but definitely someone worth keeping an eye on.
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Post by grinandbarrett on Jul 14, 2014 21:18:41 GMT -5
Nick Moore in left field - interesting. Both HRs off right handlers for the switch hitter. Good to see. Playing time has been sporatic at best since Travis came on board. Maybe left field will lead to some more consistent ABs.
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Post by vermontsox1 on Jul 14, 2014 21:18:42 GMT -5
Yoan Aybar: 2-4 w/ 3B, SB
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Post by larrycook on Jul 14, 2014 21:20:04 GMT -5
Danny Mars now hitting .390 with 1.000+ OPS and has stolen 3 bases (6 attempts/14 games). Probably the best start of this year's draft crop and particularly impressive for a HS kid in the NYPL. It's early but definitely someone worth keeping an eye on. Why is sturgeon in Greenville and not mars? I have not seen mars live, but the numbers are off the chains.
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 14,097
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Post by cdj on Jul 14, 2014 21:25:41 GMT -5
Danny Mars now hitting .390 with 1.000+ OPS and has stolen 3 bases (6 attempts/14 games). Probably the best start of this year's draft crop and particularly impressive for a HS kid in the NYPL. It's early but definitely someone worth keeping an eye on. I agree it is quite impressive what he is doing, but he was not a HS kid. He attended Chipola College, a JUCO in Florida.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Jul 14, 2014 21:26:58 GMT -5
It might have to do with CF vs RF or Juco vs Col draftee or even more likely that the Sox promote when they think it's the appropriate level of competition.
My bad on the HS, I didn't look, was remembering wrong. 1 yr JUCO so 1 year removed from HS.
ADD: I'm also guessing that he's unlikely to get bumped until Margot gets bumped for at least the first year or two. Both have the tools to be true center fielders who you would want playing every day. Lowell is a good experience, it's not like he's in the GCL.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jul 14, 2014 22:37:54 GMT -5
Danny Mars now hitting .390 with 1.000+ OPS and has stolen 3 bases (6 attempts/14 games). Probably the best start of this year's draft crop and particularly impressive for a HS kid in the NYPL. It's early but definitely someone worth keeping an eye on. Why is sturgeon in Greenville and not mars? I have not seen mars live, but the numbers are off the chains. One was a college senior at a major DI program, the other was from a juco. Sturgeon is much farther along and makes sense as the guy to go up.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jul 14, 2014 22:52:34 GMT -5
Although the Sox say they teach a "selective aggressive" approach, do we know how consistent they are in these instructions or whether they are also sending contradictory messages like "grind it out" and build up pitch count. I doubt it, but do we really know. And why use the term 'selective aggressive', when the traditional way of "be ready to hit but decide whether it is a pitch you can hit" does the job. Oh well. There are also attitudes expressed on the board by some that suggest the goal is taking a many pitches as possible and walking is almost god like and the measure of all things, which of course does not mean that this is what the Sox are teaching. But many of the hitters do go deep into the count and seem to take many good pitches. It is not easy to recognize what you can hit, and it takes time to learn this at the major league level, where you sometimes have to learn all over again. More than likely Bradley is seeing the ball better and Xander is learning. Vasquez seems to be looking for pitches he can handle, and I do not know what Middlebrooks is doing (nor does he). One minor league hitting coach at a lower level said that he first watches what they do and takes it from there. It is easy to confuse them when they start he added. I don't get why you're so skeptical about this. This is something that comes out in interviews with players, coaches, and player dev personnel. Unless they're wasting their time doing lots of media practice sessions to make sure everyone is on message, this is actually what they're teaching the players to do. It's not like the Red Sox issue a press release describing some player development theory they have hoping to throw the media or other teams off their scent. Also, not sure what your point is about having a name for the approach. it's not like they don't explain to the players what the term means. That's a sweet strawman with the walking thing though. I like the "god-like" thing - nice subtle reference to Youkilis.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Jul 14, 2014 23:01:32 GMT -5
Danny Mars now hitting .390 with 1.000+ OPS and has stolen 3 bases (6 attempts/14 games). Probably the best start of this year's draft crop and particularly impressive for a HS kid in the NYPL. It's early but definitely someone worth keeping an eye on. JC, but otherwise agree. Hopefully doesn't wind up as one of those Hissey types in the long run. Should get a good look with him next year as well at Greenville. That team will be interesting agin next year after having a so-so roster this year.. Travis, Lognhi, Mars, Ethington. Could conceivably have Ball again.
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Post by quintanariffic on Jul 15, 2014 0:05:45 GMT -5
Rafael Devers says don't forget me, lest I treat you like a GCL pitcher.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Jul 15, 2014 0:17:09 GMT -5
Rafael Devers says don't forget me, lest I treat you like a GCL pitcher. That would be oh so sweet, but I just don't see it, except in a wish. Greenville would be the team to watch next season and probably get me to use my MiLB subscription more.
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Post by godot on Jul 15, 2014 1:43:33 GMT -5
Chris, you have much more access to the Sox and more knowledgeable about their development process. I'll take your word on it. Thanks. BTW, I am a skeptic by experience. I did not even believe my mother.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Jul 15, 2014 3:33:53 GMT -5
It doesn't mean jack in the grand scheme of things but, with missing three games for the futures game, Sean Coyle has dropped off the qualified list for the Eastern League leader boards. That happened at the same time as Mookie dropped off so, we now have an EL leader board that doesn't tell the whole story.
We had a few days of Coyle and Betts leading the pack and Owens leading the pitching. It's not unrealistic to think in a few weeks we could have Coyle leading in hitting and Owens and Johnson sitting 1-2 in pitching.
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