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Should the Red Sox trade Dustin Pedroia?
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Post by jodyreidnichols on Dec 21, 2014 19:50:09 GMT -5
I think that even the discussion of trading Pedroia shows the disloyalty of some Boston fans. No, he isn't producing MVP numbers like he used to, but he still is a solid hitter who plays stellar defense. He is the heart and soul of this team, and his hustle and team spirit is a great influence on the younger guys. He is under a reasonable contract, and he LOVES Boston. He accepted a huge discount to stay in Boston long term. I think his hitting will improve, as he always does the last few months of the year. I hope he retires in a Boston uniform, even is he is hitting .250 in the final years. Disloyalty? The idea is to build a championship team not be a fan boy of favorite players. No player should be above this discussion, no-one. Your very words show that you are to close to the trees to see the forest. In the end we root for the uniform and the name in front and not the one in the back. There are a lot of people like you who remember what was and not what is and that is a legitimate reason to explore the idea of moving him in and of itself as there may be a few GM's who remember things you do, therefore his trade value may still be worth more to others than Boston. Then again I stated the same thing before he was injured for the third straight season. I correctly stated he'd be injured again this season before he was and I thought the reasoning was and is sound. Any small player that plays all out as he does and who dives all over the place and has hand and wrist injuries the past two three seasons is more likely to be injured again. Right or wrong in the end that is a reasonable assumption and no hoping, because he is a fan favorite, changes that. I think his latest injury decreases the chances of this ever coming to fruition but if you want to build sustained success then trading players who have passed their prime is an avenue that must be explored even if that route is not ultimately followed.
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Post by jodyreidnichols on Dec 21, 2014 20:01:03 GMT -5
I think that even the discussion of trading Pedroia shows the disloyalty of some Boston fans. No, he isn't producing MVP numbers like he used to, but he still is a solid hitter who plays stellar defense. He is the heart and soul of this team, and his hustle and team spirit is a great influence on the younger guys. He is under a reasonable contract, and he LOVES Boston. He accepted a huge discount to stay in Boston long term. I think his hitting will improve, as he always does the last few months of the year. I hope he retires in a Boston uniform, even is he is hitting .250 in the final years. The Red Sox aren't going to deal Pedroia. They signed him to be the face of the franchise (or at least the other one besides Ortiz). It's crazy that 2b is such a strong position of strength in the organization. If Pedroia didn't act like Pedroia, I wouldn't have minded him being dealt on 7/31 to open up a spot for Mookie Betts, who might be the best all around 2b in the organization soon. But Pedroia is the guy who signed a long-term deal for a fraction of what he could have gotten on the open market, and if the Sox dealt him shortly after that, it would be hard to imagine other players leaving a ton of money on the table to sign a team friendly deal like Pedroia signed. Of course, I wondered the same thing when they dealt Bronson Arroyo, but this contract is more extreme. I worry that Pedroia plays so hard that he gets injured often, plays thru them, and isn't the same. I prefer to think that way because the alternative is that he's declining offensively. The power is just about gone and his hitting is inconsistent. His offense has been declining, although it is plenty acceptable for now. Don't know if we'll be saying the same thing by 2017 and it's a long way to go until 2021. A large part of his value is based on his top notch defense. I just hope 2014 is a down year or a season where he's hiding an injury and then he bounces back in 2015, but I'm not sure that's the case. I'd hate to see the Sox have to get rid of Mookie Betts and Rijo (at least Mookie can play other positions - Rijo can't) in the lower minors eventuall because 2b is locked down by somebody who could be not as good. My best hope is that Pedroia is to the Sox what Jeter has been the past decade to the Yankees but with better range. Pedroia signed a team friendly deal and some believe because of that if we traded him others would not want to sign with us and the has happened exactly how many times in the history of MLB? It wouldn't change anything, it's a business and the players know it and so should everyone else.
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 21, 2014 21:18:54 GMT -5
I think that even the discussion of trading Pedroia shows the disloyalty of some Boston fans. No, he isn't producing MVP numbers like he used to, but he still is a solid hitter who plays stellar defense. He is the heart and soul of this team, and his hustle and team spirit is a great influence on the younger guys. He is under a reasonable contract, and he LOVES Boston. He accepted a huge discount to stay in Boston long term. I think his hitting will improve, as he always does the last few months of the year. I hope he retires in a Boston uniform, even is he is hitting .250 in the final years. Disloyalty? The idea is to build a championship team not be a fan boy of favorite players. No player should be above this discussion, no-one. Your very words show that you are to close to the trees to see the forest. In the end we root for the uniform and the name in front and not the one in the back. There are a lot of people like you who remember what was and not what is and that is a legitimate reason to explore the idea of moving him in and of itself as there may be a few GM's who remember things you do, therefore his trade value may still be worth more to others than Boston. Then again I stated the same thing before he was injured for the third straight season. I correctly stated he'd be injured again this season before he was and I thought the reasoning was and is sound. Any small player that plays all out as he does and who dives all over the place and has hand and wrist injuries the past two three seasons is more likely to be injured again. Right or wrong in the end that is a reasonable assumption and no hoping, because he is a fan favorite, changes that. I think his latest injury decreases the chances of this ever coming to fruition but if you want to build sustained success then trading players who have passed their prime is an avenue that must be explored even if that route is not ultimately followed. You're right on a lot of what you say but there are ramifications outside that one deal that go with trading Pedroia so the deal better be a home run and a half to do it. It's not realistic you could get enough value back. Plus his AAV is 13.75m it's not much now and in 2 years it will be peanuts.
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Post by jodyreidnichols on Dec 22, 2014 12:31:02 GMT -5
Disloyalty? The idea is to build a championship team not be a fan boy of favorite players. No player should be above this discussion, no-one. Your very words show that you are to close to the trees to see the forest. In the end we root for the uniform and the name in front and not the one in the back. There are a lot of people like you who remember what was and not what is and that is a legitimate reason to explore the idea of moving him in and of itself as there may be a few GM's who remember things you do, therefore his trade value may still be worth more to others than Boston. Then again I stated the same thing before he was injured for the third straight season. I correctly stated he'd be injured again this season before he was and I thought the reasoning was and is sound. Any small player that plays all out as he does and who dives all over the place and has hand and wrist injuries the past two three seasons is more likely to be injured again. Right or wrong in the end that is a reasonable assumption and no hoping, because he is a fan favorite, changes that. I think his latest injury decreases the chances of this ever coming to fruition but if you want to build sustained success then trading players who have passed their prime is an avenue that must be explored even if that route is not ultimately followed. You're right on a lot of what you say but there are ramifications outside that one deal that go with trading Pedroia so the deal better be a home run and a half to do it. It's not realistic you could get enough value back. Plus his AAV is 13.75m it's not much now and in 2 years it will be peanuts. Well we both agree with each that it would have to be a good deal and there is no need to move him, however I hope the Sox explore every avenue they can to improve the team. Usually it's only a player who has value that get back any real value in return
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 22, 2014 18:34:07 GMT -5
Pedroia is about as untouchable as a player gets. Everyone here realizes that his contract's AAV is more than $10M lower than Cano's, and his contract is two years shorter, right? Even during what everyone recognizes as a down year, he was seventh among MLB second basemen in fWAR (concerns about how defense is factored in to any sort of WAR acknowledged). As good of a prospect as Mookie Betts is, I would bet against him ever becoming as good as Pedroia, and on that contract, it would be insane to get rid of him. I get Red Sox don't want to trade him. What if the Marlins and/or Mets offer you Matt Harvey and/or Jose Fernandez straight up. Would you say no to that? Pedroia has a great contract, but so do Fernandez and Harvey. Granted they are both injured, but recent history shows they should come back maybe stronger then before.
What gives you more production long term Pedroia or Betts and Harvey/Fernandez? With all our outfielders we can insert another good hitter into Betts spot. Like I said before I don't want to trade Pedroia, but I would for an elite young pitcher under team control for years. Even if that pitcher was currently injured. It would help balance the roster.
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 22, 2014 18:48:05 GMT -5
Pedroia is about as untouchable as a player gets. Everyone here realizes that his contract's AAV is more than $10M lower than Cano's, and his contract is two years shorter, right? Even during what everyone recognizes as a down year, he was seventh among MLB second basemen in fWAR (concerns about how defense is factored in to any sort of WAR acknowledged). As good of a prospect as Mookie Betts is, I would bet against him ever becoming as good as Pedroia, and on that contract, it would be insane to get rid of him. I get Red Sox don't want to trade him. What if the Marlins and/or Mets offer you Matt Harvey and/or Jose Fernandez straight up. Would you say no to that? Pedroia has a great contract, but so do Fernandez and Harvey. Granted they are both injured, but recent history shows they should come back maybe stronger then before.
What gives you more production long term Pedroia or Betts and Harvey/Fernandez? With all our outfielders we can insert another good hitter into Betts spot. Like I said before I don't want to trade Pedroia, but I would for an elite young pitcher under team control for years. Even if that pitcher was currently injured. It would help balance the roster.
Ok some semblance of common sense has to come into play and a situation like yours shows none. No one is trading those guys for Pedroia.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 23, 2014 14:49:53 GMT -5
I strongly disagree. Common sense went out the window this off season for a hand full of teams and GM's. When you have Betts and a ton of OF depth I don't think Pedroia should be looked at as untouchable. Sure my trade ideas seem a little crazy, but you could say the same thing about a lot of trades made this off season. Did anyone in the baseball world really think the Rays would trade Wil Myers after an injured filled year and his value at an all time low? Look at the Samardzija trade, talk about a trade where it seems common sense was not applied.
I'm not saying the Mets or Marlins would make these trades, just that the Red Sox should see what's out there for Pedroia and that there are trades that make sense for the Sox to deal Pedroia. He does have a great contract and maybe some team really values that and would give up high end young pitchers with years of team control.
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 23, 2014 15:10:16 GMT -5
Can we have another more ridiculous trade proposal forum?
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 23, 2014 16:31:50 GMT -5
I strongly disagree. Common sense went out the window this off season for a hand full of teams and GM's. When you have Betts and a ton of OF depth I don't think Pedroia should be looked at as untouchable. Sure my trade ideas seem a little crazy, but you could say the same thing about a lot of trades made this off season. Did anyone in the baseball world really think the Rays would trade Wil Myers after an injured filled year and his value at an all time low? Look at the Samardzija trade, talk about a trade where it seems common sense was not applied. I'm not saying the Mets or Marlins would make these trades, just that the Red Sox should see what's out there for Pedroia and that there are trades that make sense for the Sox to deal Pedroia. He does have a great contract and maybe some team really values that and would give up high end young pitchers with years of team control. There is a difference between "surprising" and "things so crazy that if they happened in a fantasy baseball league someone would be getting kicked out." I think it's understood that when we're all posting on this message board, we're talking about things that are within the reasonable realm of possibility.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 23, 2014 18:23:46 GMT -5
I strongly disagree. Common sense went out the window this off season for a hand full of teams and GM's. When you have Betts and a ton of OF depth I don't think Pedroia should be looked at as untouchable. Sure my trade ideas seem a little crazy, but you could say the same thing about a lot of trades made this off season. Did anyone in the baseball world really think the Rays would trade Wil Myers after an injured filled year and his value at an all time low? Look at the Samardzija trade, talk about a trade where it seems common sense was not applied. I'm not saying the Mets or Marlins would make these trades, just that the Red Sox should see what's out there for Pedroia and that there are trades that make sense for the Sox to deal Pedroia. He does have a great contract and maybe some team really values that and would give up high end young pitchers with years of team control. There is a difference between "surprising" and "things so crazy that if they happened in a fantasy baseball league someone would be getting kicked out." I think it's understood that when we're all posting on this message board, we're talking about things that are within the reasonable realm of possibility. I remember you saying about the same thing in regards to a Samardzija trade idea. No way the A's trade him without getting legit prospects after what they gave up to get him you said. Then he's traded for a bunch of no name guys. Maybe you don't think we can trade Pedroia for good young high end pitching, but I do.
What Fantasy league would kick a player out for trading Harvey/Fernandez for Pedroia? That's crazy talk from a fantasy point of view. The two pitchers are injured/coming back form injury. When they came back they'll be on an inning limit. You have no idea if they will start 10 games, 20, 30 or pitch 50, 100 or 200 innings. In fantasy baseball it's a very good chance that Pedroia out produces them both next year! I get what you are trying to say, fantasy baseball was a very bad example though.
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 25, 2014 9:02:30 GMT -5
Samardzija wasn't traded for a bunch of nobodies and Billy Bean is a different animal anyways as he makes his own evaluations and targets specific ayers to fit his model.
Maybe fantasy baseball was a bad example but no more so than yours of Harvey or Fernandez. The Marlins not Mets are trading the two most talented pitchers in baseball regardless of if they are coming off of injury or not for an aging declining second baseman who holds way more value to the Red Sox than he does to any other franchise.
If you said, the Nationals for Strasberg that would have some semblance of reality and I wouldn't expect the Sox to say yes to thy deal.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 25, 2014 23:17:39 GMT -5
Samardzija wasn't traded for a bunch of nobodies and Billy Bean is a different animal anyways as he makes his own evaluations and targets specific ayers to fit his model. Maybe fantasy baseball was a bad example but no more so than yours of Harvey or Fernandez. The Marlins not Mets are trading the two most talented pitchers in baseball regardless of if they are coming off of injury or not for an aging declining second baseman who holds way more value to the Red Sox than he does to any other franchise. If you said, the Nationals for Strasberg that would have some semblance of reality and I wouldn't expect the Sox to say yes to thy deal. What do you mean he wasn't traded for a bunch of nobodies? Chris Bassitt, Marcus Semien, Rongelo Ravelo and Josh Phegley. 2014 Keith Law rankings list White Sox system as the 27th rated in baseball. The best prospect in the deal is what Marcus Semien, who was rated 6th in the 27th rated system. Law says his best role would be a super utility guy, who maybe able to start. The other three are not listed to start the year in the White Sox top 10. Baseball America 2015 ranking show only Rongelo Ravelo and he is ranked 10th. Please explain how you think these players are nobodies when it comes to prospects?
That's like the Red Sox trading for Samaardzija and the best prospect being Sean Coyle.
Please read all my posts. I never said the Red Sox should trade Pedroia for Harvey and/or Fernandez. People were saying that Pedroia was just about untouchable, so I threw out a few names to show that there are trades that make sense and asked you wouldn't make that trade? That's a big difference. I also don't believe that Pedroia has more value to the Sox when compared to other teams. Why? With a young cheap player like Betts able to play 2nd base I would say Pedroia has less value to the Red Sox then other teams that need a 2nd baseman. Also Pedroia has a team friendly contract that small and mid market teams would value more so then a large market team like the Red Sox.
Strasberg only has two years of team control, so it's not a slam dunk. That being said I make that trade all day long.
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Post by jmei on Dec 26, 2014 8:08:10 GMT -5
Marcus Semien is a way, way better prospect than Sean Coyle. He was ranked 91st on last year's BA top 100, has a career .266/.368/.491 AAA line, and Steamer projects him to be a 2.3 win player next year.
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Post by moonstone2 on Dec 26, 2014 11:21:35 GMT -5
Marcus Semien is a way, way better prospect than Sean Coyle. He was ranked 91st on last year's BA top 100, has a career .266/.368/.491 AAA line, and Steamer projects him to be a 2.3 win player next year. Seimen is one of those players who's performance is better than evaluations of many who have scouted him A.K.A. A "Moneyball" player. Despite the claims of many, the performance of these types of players at the major league level is mixed.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 26, 2014 17:58:40 GMT -5
Marcus Semien is a way, way better prospect than Sean Coyle. He was ranked 91st on last year's BA top 100, has a career .266/.368/.491 AAA line, and Steamer projects him to be a 2.3 win player next year. Sean Coyles age 22 season at AA .295 .371 .512 and .883, Semien's age 22 season at AA and AAA .284 .401 .479 and .880. Due to a weak systems the White Sox have really pushed Semien through the system. I feel that Coyle has really developed the last two years. Coyle has 32 HR in his last 576 AB over the last two years. Looking at the age 22 seasons they sure look like similar players. Another thing that jumps out about Semiens is that in 2013 his D was worth .6 rWar and in 2014 it was -.2 in 62 games. The last two years he played 29 games at 2nd, 50 at third and 6 at SS. Oakland is now moving him to SS full time. Maybe his D improves at SS, I just don't think it will. Given the choice I would take Coyles power potential over Semiens OBS. We will find out in a few years who is right.
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Post by jmei on Dec 26, 2014 19:25:29 GMT -5
Coyle's peripherals have been pretty bad over that period, while Semien's have been sparkling, which makes a huge difference. You might think they're similar players, but I'm willing to bet that 9 out of 10 front offices would prefer Semien by a sizable margin, a fact that is corroborated by the fact that Coyle has not and will not get any top 100 consideration, whereas Semien has.
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 26, 2014 19:55:50 GMT -5
Coyle will be lucky to get a cup of coffee in the majors... His K Rate is his downfall.
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TX
Veteran
Posts: 265
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Post by TX on Dec 26, 2014 19:57:53 GMT -5
I wouldn't argue that, but I will argue this:
WHY IS THIS THREAD STILL IN EXISTENCE? Ridiculous.
And to the guy who wants the Sox to become the cold hand of Belichick's Patriots, I say no. Regardless of all the wins, the very worst thing about my Pat's is roster turnover, which may work within the NFL, what, with the helmets and all, but I'd rather MLB stray from.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 27, 2014 4:11:08 GMT -5
Coyle's peripherals have been pretty bad over that period, while Semien's have been sparkling, which makes a huge difference. You might think they're similar players, but I'm willing to bet that 9 out of 10 front offices would prefer Semien by a sizable margin, a fact that is corroborated by the fact that Coyle has not and will not get any top 100 consideration, whereas Semien has. Sure Coyle strikes out a lot, but I don't think his numbers are that bad. He knows how to take a walk. In regards to him not getting any top 100 consideration I chalk that up to the White Sox rushing Semien through their system. He was 22 when they brought him up to the majors. If Semien was on the Red Sox he would not have been in the majors at 22 and likely never sniffs baseball Americas top 100 list. If Coyle and Semien switched teams and Coyle played in the majors last year I'm sure he'd be in consideration for top 100 lists. With the season Coyle had last year I bet if he was on a crappy team (white Sox) it very well could of happened. With the lack of power in the big leagues right now I value a 2b that has a chance to hit 20 HR over a guy that doesn't strike out and gets on base. I also look at Coyle and see upside he is just starting to put it all together. Also there is a huge difference in where someone like Keith Law Ranks Semien and where Baseball American ranks him. Keith Law doesn't have Semien even close to a top 100 prospect, that's a huge difference. In the long run I see Coyle and Semien as part time players in the majors. If Semien's breaks out next year I will eat my words and you can throw it in my face.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 27, 2014 4:21:10 GMT -5
I wouldn't argue that, but I will argue this: WHY IS THIS THREAD STILL IN EXISTENCE? Ridiculous. And to the guy who wants the Sox to become the cold hand of Belichick's Patriots, I say no. Regardless of all the wins, the very worst thing about my Pat's is roster turnover, which may work within the NFL, what, with the helmets and all, but I'd rather MLB stray from. I want what is in the best interest of the team! If you can trade Pedroia for Strasberg or another good young pitcher you do it. Are you still upset that Theo traded Nomar? Would you rather Nomar finished his career as a Red Sox and we don't win a title?
Sure it would be cold hearted to trade Pedroia, that doesn't mean you shouldn't at least consider it. I truly love Pedroia but he worries me with his all out play and the way he throws his body around on D. How long will his small frame hold up? Has his decline already started? Or does he bounce back next year?
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 27, 2014 10:26:13 GMT -5
I wouldn't argue that, but I will argue this: WHY IS THIS THREAD STILL IN EXISTENCE? Ridiculous. And to the guy who wants the Sox to become the cold hand of Belichick's Patriots, I say no. Regardless of all the wins, the very worst thing about my Pat's is roster turnover, which may work within the NFL, what, with the helmets and all, but I'd rather MLB stray from. I want what is in the best interest of the team! If you can trade Pedroia for Strasberg or another good young pitcher you do it. Are you still upset that Theo traded Nomar? Would you rather Nomar finished his career as a Red Sox and we don't win a title?
Sure it would be cold hearted to trade Pedroia, that doesn't mean you shouldn't at least consider it. I truly love Pedroia but he worries me with his all out play and the way he throws his body around on D. How long will his small frame hold up? Has his decline already started? Or does he bounce back next year?
Apples and oranges. The Sox aren't getting Strasburg for Pedroia. Pedroia is not a free agent to be like Nomar. He's not getting traded anytime soon. Why not start a trade David Ortiz thread instead? It's just as silly.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 27, 2014 20:54:08 GMT -5
I want what is in the best interest of the team! If you can trade Pedroia for Strasberg or another good young pitcher you do it. Are you still upset that Theo traded Nomar? Would you rather Nomar finished his career as a Red Sox and we don't win a title?
Sure it would be cold hearted to trade Pedroia, that doesn't mean you shouldn't at least consider it. I truly love Pedroia but he worries me with his all out play and the way he throws his body around on D. How long will his small frame hold up? Has his decline already started? Or does he bounce back next year?
Apples and oranges. The Sox aren't getting Strasburg for Pedroia. Pedroia is not a free agent to be like Nomar. He's not getting traded anytime soon. Why not start a trade David Ortiz thread instead? It's just as silly. You can't compare Ortiz who is 39 to Pedroia who is 31. Talk about Apples to Oranges! Pedroia has a ton and a mean a ton more trade value. He is also on a long term contract that is seen as below market value.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 27, 2014 23:54:07 GMT -5
Apples and oranges. The Sox aren't getting Strasburg for Pedroia. Pedroia is not a free agent to be like Nomar. He's not getting traded anytime soon. Why not start a trade David Ortiz thread instead? It's just as silly. You can't compare Ortiz who is 39 to Pedroia who is 31. Talk about Apples to Oranges! Pedroia has a ton and a mean a ton more trade value. He is also on a long term contract that is seen as below market value. Either way, we know the Sox aren't dangling Pedroia in trade talks so it's not a very realistic thing to talk about. My point with Ortiz is that talking about dealing Ortiz is just as unrealistic. It's great theoretical conversation, but nothing more. The Sox aren't dealing Pedroia now or anytime soon. If he declines he won't be worth a ton in trade value. If he plays well, the Sox will keep him for his strong salary and as a core member of the team. Either way he's not going anywhere anytime soon.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Dec 28, 2014 0:56:58 GMT -5
Apples and oranges. The Sox aren't getting Strasburg for Pedroia. Pedroia is not a free agent to be like Nomar. He's not getting traded anytime soon. Why not start a trade David Ortiz thread instead? It's just as silly. You can't compare Ortiz who is 39 to Pedroia who is 31. Talk about Apples to Oranges! Pedroia has a ton and a mean a ton more trade value. He is also on a long term contract that is seen as below market value. Seriously: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apples_and_orangesPedroia and Ortiz can easily be compared. You just did it. A comparison of a baseball player to a baseball player is an apples-to-apples comparison. A comparison of a baseball player to a musician is an apples-to-oranges comparison.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 28, 2014 1:06:43 GMT -5
You can't compare Ortiz who is 39 to Pedroia who is 31. Talk about Apples to Oranges! Pedroia has a ton and a mean a ton more trade value. He is also on a long term contract that is seen as below market value. Either way, we know the Sox aren't dangling Pedroia in trade talks so it's not a very realistic thing to talk about. My point with Ortiz is that talking about dealing Ortiz is just as unrealistic. It's great theoretical conversation, but nothing more. The Sox aren't dealing Pedroia now or anytime soon. If he declines he won't be worth a ton in trade value. If he plays well, the Sox will keep him for his strong salary and as a core member of the team. Either way he's not going anywhere anytime soon. Shame on Ben if he doesn't at least see what he could get for him. Pedroia value is still really high right now, hence why I would see what we can get. If you can't get a really good young pitcher you don't trade him. I know the chances are slim, doesn't mean you don't try. That's my point, not that I just want to trade Pedroia.
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