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Should the Red Sox trade Dustin Pedroia?
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Post by amfox1 on Jul 23, 2015 13:46:05 GMT -5
Just checking, but does anybody here really think that Dustin Pedroia getting traded at any point soon has even a 0.0001% chance of happening in reality? If at all once his 10-5 rights kick in? I'm kind of amazed that there is six pages of talk about a theoretical trade that has virtually no chance of happening. This season? No. This offseason? Probably not, although I would explore his trade value in the offseason. Next year's trade deadline, if they are out of the race and before DP's 10-and-5 rights kick in? More than 0.0001% for sure. Perhaps significantly more. Post 10-and-5 rights? Absolutely, if it means playing time and a chance to win consistently. (One would hope he could do it here, but in case 3 flops-in-4 years becomes 4 flops-in-5 years?) Personally, I would be in favor of trading an almost-33YO Dustin Pedroia if we are out of the race at next year's trade deadline and 21YO Yoan Moncada is knocking the cover off the ball at Double-A.
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Post by arzjake on Jul 23, 2015 19:37:32 GMT -5
The problem is not pedroia. The problem is no pitching! And you don't see any kind of possible connection here? Pedroia is clearly not the Pedroia everyone clings to. He is not. The team clearly has issues. Then it's logical to take a declining player whose perception appears to be better than actually is. In the very least explore trading him to see what's available. By the time this team is a serious contender again he clearly will not be a main cog, therefore use him and any other asset you have that may speed up that process. That's very basic. Pedroia is a dirt dog! The f####n guy plays injured and gives a sh!t. Moncada replaces Pedroia. Until that time comes he stays.. Deal a veteran, you move Ortiz. Much like Koji, get value while you still can. The problem I have with Ortiz is, his mouth. He might be just one of those guys who when he makes a comment its taken the wrong way for whatever reason. Its clearly time to move on.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 23, 2015 23:40:49 GMT -5
Just checking, but does anybody here really think that Dustin Pedroia getting traded at any point soon has even a 0.0001% chance of happening in reality? If at all once his 10-5 rights kick in? I'm kind of amazed that there is six pages of talk about a theoretical trade that has virtually no chance of happening. This season? No. This offseason? Probably not, although I would explore his trade value in the offseason. Next year's trade deadline, if they are out of the race and before DP's 10-and-5 rights kick in? More than 0.0001% for sure. Perhaps significantly more. Post 10-and-5 rights? Absolutely, if it means playing time and a chance to win consistently. (One would hope he could do it here, but in case 3 flops-in-4 years becomes 4 flops-in-5 years?) Personally, I would be in favor of trading an almost-33YO Dustin Pedroia if we are out of the race at next year's trade deadline and 21YO Yoan Moncada is knocking the cover off the ball at Double-A. Just to be clear, you think the Red Sox FO, and not you if you were the GM, will entertain dealing Pedey next year if and when the Sox are going down the same path in 16 that they have gone down the past two seasons?
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 23, 2015 23:44:16 GMT -5
And you don't see any kind of possible connection here? Pedroia is clearly not the Pedroia everyone clings to. He is not. The team clearly has issues. Then it's logical to take a declining player whose perception appears to be better than actually is. In the very least explore trading him to see what's available. By the time this team is a serious contender again he clearly will not be a main cog, therefore use him and any other asset you have that may speed up that process. That's very basic. Pedroia is a dirt dog! The f####n guy plays injured and gives a sh!t. Moncada replaces Pedroia. Until that time comes he stays.. Deal a veteran, you move Ortiz. Much like Koji, get value while you still can. The problem I have with Ortiz is, his mouth. He might be just one of those guys who when he makes a comment its taken the wrong way for whatever reason. Its clearly time to move on. Ortiz isn't being traded either. Geez. He's a 10-5 guy who is Mr. Boston (along with Pedroia). He's going to retire a Red Sox. As far as his mouth goes, who really cares? Were you complaining about his mouth when he pulled his teammates together for a pep talk during the 6th inning of Game 4 of the World Series a couple of years ago? This guy is a huge reason the Sox have 3 more Championships than I thought they'd ever have in my lifetime. Why should we care if the press makes a lightning rod of everything surrounding Ortiz? Especially ridiculous stuff like intimating that he was faking illness to get out of playing 1b because he doesn't really think playing 1b is a good idea (which for him it really isn't).
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 23, 2015 23:47:23 GMT -5
My goodness, if it were 1959 and Ted Williams was coming off an injury plagued season where he only hit .254 I swear a lot of people here would be clamoring for him to be dealt.
I get this is a business and there's very little room for sentiment, but when Ortiz and Pedroia have made their affinity for the Red Sox clear, and could have made more elsewhere, and aren't having any major contract disputes with the Sox, it's pretty clear they will be Red Sox for life, much the way Williams and Yaz were. And like Tek and Wakefield later on.
Two way loyalty between a player and an organization is rare, but in the case of Pedroia and Ortiz, it clearly exists, so I'd be absolutely stunned if the Sox ever dealt either of those two players.
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Post by arzjake on Jul 24, 2015 19:00:20 GMT -5
Pedroia is a dirt dog! The f####n guy plays injured and gives a sh!t. Moncada replaces Pedroia. Until that time comes he stays.. Deal a veteran, you move Ortiz. Much like Koji, get value while you still can. The problem I have with Ortiz is, his mouth. He might be just one of those guys who when he makes a comment its taken the wrong way for whatever reason. Its clearly time to move on. Ortiz isn't being traded either. Geez. He's a 10-5 guy who is Mr. Boston (along with Pedroia). He's going to retire a Red Sox. As far as his mouth goes, who really cares? Were you complaining about his mouth when he pulled his teammates together for a pep talk during the 6th inning of Game 4 of the World Series a couple of years ago? This guy is a huge reason the Sox have 3 more Championships than I thought they'd ever have in my lifetime. Why should we care if the press makes a lightning rod of everything surrounding Ortiz? Especially ridiculous stuff like intimating that he was faking illness to get out of playing 1b because he doesn't really think playing 1b is a good idea (which for him it really isn't). That was 2 years ago. Yes a huge part of the past, so wasn't Schilling Pedro Lester Foulke Beckett Ellsbury and twenty other players. There all gone. It happens, players move on. Ortiz, 40 yrs old this fall. Your going to let a 40 yr old player/ DH, dictate your lineup in 16 because he wants 500 HR's? Your all nuts! 10/5 doesn't mean a thing.
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Post by jmei on Jul 24, 2015 19:20:11 GMT -5
. 10/5 doesn't mean a thing. It means a lot, actually.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 24, 2015 23:30:25 GMT -5
Ortiz isn't being traded either. Geez. He's a 10-5 guy who is Mr. Boston (along with Pedroia). He's going to retire a Red Sox. As far as his mouth goes, who really cares? Were you complaining about his mouth when he pulled his teammates together for a pep talk during the 6th inning of Game 4 of the World Series a couple of years ago? This guy is a huge reason the Sox have 3 more Championships than I thought they'd ever have in my lifetime. Why should we care if the press makes a lightning rod of everything surrounding Ortiz? Especially ridiculous stuff like intimating that he was faking illness to get out of playing 1b because he doesn't really think playing 1b is a good idea (which for him it really isn't). That was 2 years ago. Yes a huge part of the past, so wasn't Schilling Pedro Lester Foulke Beckett Ellsbury and twenty other players. There all gone. It happens, players move on. Ortiz, 40 yrs old this fall. Your going to let a 40 yr old player/ DH, dictate your lineup in 16 because he wants 500 HR's? Your all nuts! 10/5 doesn't mean a thing. Why am I nuts? Other than Pedro, are those guys you mentioned really in the same category? Really? Those other guys you mentioned were the "face of the franchise"? No. A guy like that can still go, but usually it's if there is a contract dispute. See Pedro as an example. See Nomar as an example. Or Clemens years earlier. Ortiz has never been one to break the bank, so despite all the posturing, neither side has ever wanted to sever the connection. As far as Ortiz in the lineup in 2016, the guy still mashes RHP, so I have no problem with him being on the team whatsoever. In case you haven't noticed, the Red Sox have no other LH hitting power threats in their lineup. The Sox of 16 probably won't be good but Ortiz is hardly the biggest issue. And also, what jmei says. Ortiz has no desire to go elsewhere, and as a 10-5 guy he has the right not to go anywhere else. The Sox management has no desire to see him go elsewhere. It doesn't happen often, but it can happen. See Yaz. See Tek. See Wakefield. Now see Ortiz. Ortiz isn't going anywhere. Take a reality pill.
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Post by telson13 on Jul 25, 2015 1:51:56 GMT -5
Pedroia is a dirt dog! The f####n guy plays injured and gives a sh!t. Moncada replaces Pedroia. Until that time comes he stays.. Deal a veteran, you move Ortiz. Much like Koji, get value while you still can. The problem I have with Ortiz is, his mouth. He might be just one of those guys who when he makes a comment its taken the wrong way for whatever reason. Its clearly time to move on. Ortiz isn't being traded either. Geez. He's a 10-5 guy who is Mr. Boston (along with Pedroia). He's going to retire a Red Sox. As far as his mouth goes, who really cares? Were you complaining about his mouth when he pulled his teammates together for a pep talk during the 6th inning of Game 4 of the World Series a couple of years ago? This guy is a huge reason the Sox have 3 more Championships than I thought they'd ever have in my lifetime. Why should we care if the press makes a lightning rod of everything surrounding Ortiz? Especially ridiculous stuff like intimating that he was faking illness to get out of playing 1b because he doesn't really think playing 1b is a good idea (which for him it really isn't). Amen.
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Post by telson13 on Jul 25, 2015 2:12:13 GMT -5
Ortiz isn't being traded either. Geez. He's a 10-5 guy who is Mr. Boston (along with Pedroia). He's going to retire a Red Sox. As far as his mouth goes, who really cares? Were you complaining about his mouth when he pulled his teammates together for a pep talk during the 6th inning of Game 4 of the World Series a couple of years ago? This guy is a huge reason the Sox have 3 more Championships than I thought they'd ever have in my lifetime. Why should we care if the press makes a lightning rod of everything surrounding Ortiz? Especially ridiculous stuff like intimating that he was faking illness to get out of playing 1b because he doesn't really think playing 1b is a good idea (which for him it really isn't). That was 2 years ago. Yes a huge part of the past, so wasn't Schilling Pedro Lester Foulke Beckett Ellsbury and twenty other players. There all gone. It happens, players move on. Ortiz, 40 yrs old this fall. Your going to let a 40 yr old player/ DH, dictate your lineup in 16 because he wants 500 HR's? Your all nuts! 10/5 doesn't mean a thing. Since 10/5 rights allow a player to veto any move, that statement is brutally inaccurate. As previously stated, Ortiz and Pedro can be compared, but the rest of your list is just a reduction to absurdity. Yeah, they're all gone. That doesn't mean they were all pushed out the door. Their tenures ended when there was no more need for their services. Ortiz has a BABIP almost 70 points below his career average this season. He does seem to be having real trouble against lefties, but some of his poor performance is likely just bad luck. And he still kills RHP. A one-year $16M deal for a 25-30 HR LH hitter isn't a bad deal, especially in a lineup deficient in lefties. Your argument seems predicated on your feelings towards Ortiz, because you're irritated at the way the media uses him as a lightning rod. You're telling everyone else they're nuts, but you're unaware or unwilling to acknowledge that you're the one ignoring their rational arguments to the contrary while your responses never address their points.
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Post by jimed14 on Jul 25, 2015 8:19:34 GMT -5
Since this thread is about Pedroia and not Ortiz, I'll talk about him. He's not going anywhere because he's still a very good player at a great salary. The loyalty (from the fans and team) slowly slips away as a player becomes a burden. It doesn't go away because a team starts offering prospects unless it's a clear overpay.
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Post by jodyreidnichols on Jul 26, 2015 3:48:11 GMT -5
A single 2 week DL stint doesn't reinforce the idea that Pedroia is injury prone. It wasn't caused by being wreckless, he just slipped over a base while running. Could happen to anyone. He's back on the DL, at what point do you concede the point?
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Post by jbberlo on Jul 26, 2015 8:25:28 GMT -5
A single 2 week DL stint doesn't reinforce the idea that Pedroia is injury prone. It wasn't caused by being wreckless, he just slipped over a base while running. Could happen to anyone. He's back on the DL, at what point do you concede the point? Since his rookie year, Pedroia has played the 4th most games of any 2nd baseman and in the last 5 years (well 4.5 to be exact) he has played the 3rd most games. You can't point to one injury that has lingered for a few weeks to show that a player is injury prone. In his nearly 10 year career, Pedroia has only been placed on the DL 3 times, and each was on the 15 day dl.
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Post by jmei on Jul 26, 2015 9:31:24 GMT -5
To be fair, during that stretch, he's also suffered a number of injuries that he probably should have gone on the DL for but instead tried to play though. I don't think it's unfair to characterize Pedroia as an injury risk, as his age, size (or lack thereof), and style of play all point in that direction.
That said, he's not J.D. Drew, as his injury history is not that extensive and he has shown the ability to play through minor injuries and remain at least mostly effective. And an acquiring team is fully aware of his injury history, so it's not really a reason for the Red Sox to trade him. Indeed, the fact that he's now on the DL has effectively closed off any possibility that he gets traded midseason.
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Post by jimed14 on Jul 26, 2015 9:41:23 GMT -5
A single 2 week DL stint doesn't reinforce the idea that Pedroia is injury prone. It wasn't caused by being wreckless, he just slipped over a base while running. Could happen to anyone. He's back on the DL, at what point do you concede the point? I don't care. This injury is not a case of getting hurt because he was reckless. He's not Victorino.
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Post by jodyreidnichols on Jul 26, 2015 10:13:27 GMT -5
He's back on the DL, at what point do you concede the point? Since his rookie year, Pedroia has played the 4th most games of any 2nd baseman and in the last 5 years (well 4.5 to be exact) he has played the 3rd most games. You can't point to one injury that has lingered for a few weeks to show that a player is injury prone. In his nearly 10 year career, Pedroia has only been placed on the DL 3 times, and each was on the 15 day dl. That last statement is false. I don't know where you are getting your information but he missed more games than he played in 2010. He broke his foot did not follow the doctors orders and made it worse, came back for 2 games and went right back to the DL for the rest of the season. Then there is this from last September, "This is the third successive year in which Pedroia has had surgery for a hand or wrist injury. In addition to repairing his ulnar collateral ligament last November, Pedroia had a pin inserted into his right pinkie finger in October 2012." That includes this, "In November 2013, Pedroia underwent thumb surgery to repair a torn UCL, an injury he suffered when sliding to first base on opening day.", so he didn't miss games from this however it affected his performance (SLG), so what's the point? Excuse the performance due to injuries or ignore the injury? Either way it has had a negative impact. and clearly your information and therefore your beliefs in this matter are inaccurate at best and more succinctly wrong.
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Post by amfox1 on Jul 26, 2015 10:36:27 GMT -5
This season? No. This offseason? Probably not, although I would explore his trade value in the offseason. Next year's trade deadline, if they are out of the race and before DP's 10-and-5 rights kick in? More than 0.0001% for sure. Perhaps significantly more. Post 10-and-5 rights? Absolutely, if it means playing time and a chance to win consistently. (One would hope he could do it here, but in case 3 flops-in-4 years becomes 4 flops-in-5 years?) Personally, I would be in favor of trading an almost-33YO Dustin Pedroia if we are out of the race at next year's trade deadline and 21YO Yoan Moncada is knocking the cover off the ball at Double-A. Just to be clear, you think the Red Sox FO, and not you if you were the GM, will entertain dealing Pedey next year if and when the Sox are going down the same path in 16 that they have gone down the past two seasons? A smart FO would entertain a trade if Pedroia has real value. I cannot say what this FO will do.
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Post by jmei on Jul 26, 2015 10:42:03 GMT -5
Just curious: Adam, what kind of package would it take for you to pull the trigger on trading Pedroia?
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Post by Guidas on Jul 26, 2015 10:54:56 GMT -5
. 10/5 doesn't mean a thing. It means a lot, actually. He also has a no-trade, which was part of the price Sox paid to get the discount.
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jimoh
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Post by jimoh on Jul 26, 2015 11:43:14 GMT -5
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Post by amfox1 on Jul 26, 2015 12:11:10 GMT -5
Just curious: Adam, what kind of package would it take for you to pull the trigger on trading Pedroia? It's difficult question in a vacuum. One year of Howie Kendrick at a very nice contract brought back a top 50 prospect in Andrew Heaney. Eight years of Dustin Pedroia (a better player, albeit older) would bring back more, I would guess, even if the back half of the contract could be an albatross. For the sake of argument, let's use the Nationals as the team to trade for Pedroia. Maybe Pedroia could bring back Giolito (who was promoted to Double-A yesterday) from the Nats. Certainly, Giolito would have to be Ben's ask. More likely, I think Pedroia would bring back a package including (1) a young mid-rotation starter or a top-30 prospect, (2) a top-50-75 prospect and (3) a third prospect with some upside. I could see Pedroia for Giolito or for a package of pitchers such as Joe Ross, A.J. Cole ++, just off the top of my head. The Nats have a lot of interesting pitchers in their system.
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Post by philarhody on Jul 26, 2015 13:10:47 GMT -5
Untradeable. Dustin Pedroia is the one Red Sox player i have ever felt is untradeable. I wouldn't trade him for Mike Trout. I really mean that. Obviously, this is highly unscientific. But i want him to retire in a Red Sox uniform the same way Yankee's fans wanted Jeter to retire in pinstripes.
I concede that we can capitalize on his value now while building for future WAR or some other subjective unit of measurement. Furthermore, I don't believe it unfounded to think that a few seasons of losing could be equally beneficial as any prospects recieved in a Pedroia deal.
But keeping Pedroia in red socks is not a practical application of postmodern sabermetrics. It's an exercise in existential feeling. I want Pedey to retire in Boston with the same vigor that i just KNEW there was something special about a stubby little second baseman sprinting through groundouts in Pawtucket.
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Post by jbberlo on Jul 26, 2015 13:26:20 GMT -5
Since his rookie year, Pedroia has played the 4th most games of any 2nd baseman and in the last 5 years (well 4.5 to be exact) he has played the 3rd most games. You can't point to one injury that has lingered for a few weeks to show that a player is injury prone. In his nearly 10 year career, Pedroia has only been placed on the DL 3 times, and each was on the 15 day dl. That last statement is false. I don't know where you are getting your information but he missed more games than he played in 2010. He broke his foot did not follow the doctors orders and made it worse, came back for 2 games and went right back to the DL for the rest of the season. Then there is this from last September, "This is the third successive year in which Pedroia has had surgery for a hand or wrist injury. In addition to repairing his ulnar collateral ligament last November, Pedroia had a pin inserted into his right pinkie finger in October 2012." That includes this, "In November 2013, Pedroia underwent thumb surgery to repair a torn UCL, an injury he suffered when sliding to first base on opening day.", so he didn't miss games from this however it affected his performance (SLG), so what's the point? Excuse the performance due to injuries or ignore the injury? Either way it has had a negative impact. and clearly your information and therefore your beliefs in this matter are inaccurate at best and more succinctly wrong. My apologies, i wrote this too quickly. Prior to this year he had only been placed on the DL 3 times, and only the 15 day dl. This year would bring the total up to 5 I believe. If youd like to check you can look here.http://www.baseballprospectus.com/card/card.php?id=45464 It is true that he has played through injuries which have hurt his performance but even then he is a valuable player on and off the field.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jul 26, 2015 14:00:09 GMT -5
My goodness, if it were 1959 and Ted Williams was coming off an injury plagued season where he only hit .254 I swear a lot of people here would be clamoring for him to be dealt. I get this is a business and there's very little room for sentiment, but when Ortiz and Pedroia have made their affinity for the Red Sox clear, and could have made more elsewhere, and aren't having any major contract disputes with the Sox, it's pretty clear they will be Red Sox for life, much the way Williams and Yaz were. And like Tek and Wakefield later on. Two way loyalty between a player and an organization is rare, but in the case of Pedroia and Ortiz, it clearly exists, so I'd be absolutely stunned if the Sox ever dealt either of those two players. I get Loyalty and Ortiz and Pedroia have earned it from the Sox, but it can't be blind loyalty either. Look at the Patriots, they show very little loyalty, but the team is better because they don't. As much as I want to see both player finish their great careers as members of the Red Sox, if the team is better off without them, we need to move on. I think this applies a lot more to Ortiz then Pedroia. I think a very good case can be made that going forward Hanley at DH makes the team better. If you could get a good package for Ortiz you have to think about trading him. Maybe just maybe a team like the Angles see Ortiz leadership and post season heroic as the missing miss and offers you a good return. Granted this is a Looong shot, but doesn't mean you don't at least consider it and see what's out there in a trade
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Post by ctfisher on Jul 26, 2015 14:56:43 GMT -5
I get Loyalty and Ortiz and Pedroia have earned it from the Sox, but it can't be blind loyalty either. Look at the Patriots, they show very little loyalty, but the team is better because they don't. As much as I want to see both player finish their great careers as members of the Red Sox, if the team is better off without them, we need to move on. I think this applies a lot more to Ortiz then Pedroia. I think a very good case can be made that going forward Hanley at DH makes the team better. If you could get a good package for Ortiz you have to think about trading him. Maybe just maybe a team like the Angles see Ortiz leadership and post season heroic as the missing miss and offers you a good return. Granted this is a Looong shot, but doesn't mean you don't at least consider it and see what's out there in a trade I think Ortiz has made it pretty clear he won't accept a trade, which means he's not getting dealt cause he's got 10-5 rights
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