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Red Sox 2013 Draft Discussion
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Post by bsout2 on May 3, 2013 10:27:24 GMT -5
Pretty good player though, much safer than Frazier or Meadows. Can't understand what gave you guys the idea he's terrible. I'd take him over Stanek, and maybe Frazier too. I'm a Shipley fan myself. We could do A LOT worse with the 7th pick. Got to admit it would be serious fun to follow a kid like Frazier (or Meadows), but I would be very pleased with an arm like his with upside. How does a team become successful in this era of baseball? Pitching, pitching, and some more pitching. Take Shipley before the high school bats.
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Post by pedroelgrande on May 3, 2013 13:10:32 GMT -5
Anybody has seen video of Shipley? I've been looking for some and can't find it.
Is Shipley really any different from the guys we have? If he was a bonafide #1 I would be more enticed about him but he strikes me as a Matt Barnes type. Nothing wrong with that but I would like more out our #7th pick. I know people want pitching and more pitching but the system has pitching, pitching close to the majors and lower levels arms with potential, but the system does lack lower level hitting, from Greenville on down its lacking. Not saying this pick should be approach with need in mind if the best player in the 1st 10 rounds is a pitcher you take him but everything else being equal and me rating Frazier and Meadows ahead of him I would go with them and would be mildly disappointed if they pass.
There is not much fault with the scouting department that I can gripe about but sometimes they've been too conservative and it hasn't worked out. If they believe Shipley is better long term prospect then go right ahead they know more than me about these things but I don't want the sole reason to be because he's a college pitcher and the other two guys are more risky.
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Post by bluechip on May 3, 2013 15:21:32 GMT -5
Is Shipley really any different from the guys we have? If he was a bonafide #1 I would be more enticed about him but he strikes me as a Matt Barnes type. Nothing wrong with that but I would like more out our #7th pick. I know people want pitching and more pitching but the system has pitching, pitching close to the majors and lower levels arms with potential, but the system does lack lower level hitting, from Greenville on down its lacking. Not saying this pick should be approach with need in mind if the best player in the 1st 10 rounds is a pitcher you take him but everything else being equal and me rating Frazier and Meadows ahead of him I would go with them and would be mildly disappointed if they pass. There is not much fault with the scouting department that I can gripe about but sometimes they've been too conservative and it hasn't worked out. If they believe Shipley is better long term prospect then go right ahead they know more than me about these things but I don't want the sole reason to be because he's a college pitcher and the other two guys are more risky. I totally, agree. You should not draft a lesser pitching prospect over a superior hitting prospect just because one is a pitcher. I am not saying Shipley is a lesser pitching prospect, but it was more general point. If you have a potential star available, you draft the potential star. If you have a cost controlled star position player, you can always find a 3/4 starter in free agency. There are no Stantons or Harpers on the free agent market (not saying Meadows/Frazier is Harper/Stanton, again, just making a general point), but there is always a Ryan Dempester or Kyle Lohse.
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Post by pedroelgrande on May 3, 2013 17:20:54 GMT -5
To me Frazier being farther away or more risky is not that big a factor. To me it comes down to who you believe is the better long term prospect and to me Frazier and Meadows are ahead of Shipley.
The only pitchers I take ahead of both are Appel and Gray, possibly Manaea but the news that he may be injured give me pause.
The draft is a month away can't wait to see who they bring in to the system.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2013 20:40:27 GMT -5
Yet both of the factors you dismiss, risk and how far from the majors, are factors into a decision as to who the better long-term prospect is. How can risk and proximity the majors not be considered a big factor? Are you saying that two prospects with the same upside but different risk profiles and/or proximity to the majors are equal? This comment doesn't make sense.
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Post by pedroelgrande on May 5, 2013 21:08:06 GMT -5
Yet both of the factors you dismiss, risk and how far from the majors, are factors into a decision as to who the better long-term prospect is. How can risk and proximity the majors not be considered a big factor? Are you saying that two prospects with the same upside but different risk profiles and/or proximity to the majors are equal? This comment doesn't make sense. I believe they are better long term prospects because I think they are more talented. Not because they are farther or closer to the majors. I believe both have the upside of being all star OF who hit in the middle of your line up. Shipley is more of a middle of the rotation guy who if his breaking pitches progress maybe he's a #2. What ever I really don't care. Thats what I think if you disagree good for you.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2013 16:05:20 GMT -5
That's fine just so you understand I am not challenging your assessment of their relative raw talents and upside just your assessment or dismissal of each players risk. Frazier for instance cannot recognize and hit a high school curve ball today. There is no guarantee that he will ever be able to hit a professional curveball never mind a major league one and if he doesn't, it won't matter how talented he is.
Some of you seem to think that getting a #2 starter out of the 7 draft slot is a terrible outcome. If they do end up with with Shipley and he becomes a #2 starter, we all should do backflips. If you don't believe me, go back and look at this histories of players taken in this area. Yes there were some stars, but lots of zeros too.
As I've stated before, I think that the choice between Frazier and Meadows upside and Shipley's relative safety is close enough so that I won't be upset whichever way the Red Sox decide. But let's not act as if taking a college starter with #2 potential is akin to throwing away the pick.
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Post by bluechip on May 6, 2013 20:26:22 GMT -5
That's fine just so you understand I am not challenging your assessment of their relative raw talents and upside just your assessment or dismissal of each players risk. Frazier for instance cannot recognize and hit a high school curve ball today. There is no guarantee that he will ever be able to hit a professional curveball never mind a major league one and if he doesn't, it won't matter how talented he is. Some of you seem to think that getting a #2 starter out of the 7 draft slot is a terrible outcome. If they do end up with with Shipley and he becomes a #2 starter, we all should do backflips. If you don't believe me, go back and look at this histories of players taken in this area. Yes there were some stars, but lots of zeros too. As I've stated before, I think that the choice between Frazier and Meadows upside and Shipley's relative safety is close enough so that I won't be upset whichever way the Red Sox decide. But let's not act as if taking a college starter with #2 potential is akin to throwing away the pick. I totally agree with you that a number two starter (especially one who moves quickly through the system) is a great result for the seventh pick. That is why I advocated Manaea over Austin Wilson, previously. I agree that one needs to look at ceiling and the likelihood of reaching that ceiling. If you believe Shipley is a number two starter, then he should absolutely be the player drafted. If you look at Shipley as number three/four starter, with only the outside chance of being a number two starter, then I would advocate looking elsewhere for the seventh pick.
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Post by redsox1534 on May 7, 2013 8:35:08 GMT -5
Heres my list of top players I want for the Sox not in the order of who I think is the best overall but in order of who I would take.
Mark Appel Jonathan Gray Clint Frazier Kris Bryant After the top 4 it gets hard for me Jonathan Denney Austin Meadows Kohl Stewart Sean Manaea Dominic Smith Braden Shiply
I love Denney Think He is a stud. Taking him would also save us a little money for the later rds I believe. I am a little higher on Dominic Smith then some people but he can hit an has power. He isnt the greatest OF an may some day end up at 1b but hes a good player who reminds of Garry Sheffield ( minus the fielding). Manaea has to many question marks an is a project mybe a big one at that. He doesnt have the feel for pitching right now Id like to see especially from a top 10 pick whos been pitching in college. Shiply isnt some one I love because I dont trust his body will hold up long term and dont think his command is that great. I dont no anuff about him overall so its hard to pass much judgement. Meadows is overrated imo but the potentiel is 100 percent there. Colin Moran will be a solid player but I dont trust his bat being more then a 15 HR hitter.
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Post by pedroelgrande on May 7, 2013 22:46:57 GMT -5
Kiley McDaniel had his 1st Mock draft today and here is what he wrote about the Red Sox:
He'll have a chat tomorrow.
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jimoh
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Posts: 3,987
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Post by jimoh on May 8, 2013 7:16:52 GMT -5
I know he's slouching a little, but doesn't Frazier look five and not three inches shorter than Meadows in this pic? They are listed as 6' and 6' 3"
/photo/1
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Post by wskeleton76 on May 8, 2013 7:28:45 GMT -5
I know he's slouching a little, but doesn't Frazier look five and not three inches shorter than Meadows in this pic? They are listed as 6' and 6' 3" /photo/1 Jim Callis said that Frazier is actually 5' 11" so your eye is pretty accurate.
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Post by threeifbaerga on May 8, 2013 8:14:53 GMT -5
I know he's slouching a little, but doesn't Frazier look five and not three inches shorter than Meadows in this pic? They are listed as 6' and 6' 3" /photo/1 Good lord, one of those guys looks like a first round draft pick, the other looks like his scrappy pal that draws up the game winning trick play.
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Post by ramireja on May 8, 2013 12:21:54 GMT -5
I know he's slouching a little, but doesn't Frazier look five and not three inches shorter than Meadows in this pic? They are listed as 6' and 6' 3" /photo/1 Good lord, one of those guys looks like a first round draft pick, the other looks like his scrappy pal that draws up the game winning trick play. and thats why he would be great in a Red Sox uniform....
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Post by bluechip on May 8, 2013 13:27:32 GMT -5
I know he's slouching a little, but doesn't Frazier look five and not three inches shorter than Meadows in this pic? They are listed as 6' and 6' 3" /photo/1 Good lord, one of those guys looks like a first round draft pick, the other looks like his scrappy pal that draws up the game winning trick play. The real question is which will make the better baseball player.
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Post by amfox1 on May 8, 2013 13:32:49 GMT -5
Kiley believes Meadows is falling as he gets more scouting looks for a couple of reasons. First, he's still growing, to a point where he may not project to CF long term. Second, he has not hit as well in games against good pitching as hoped.
He thinks he goes between 9-14, with PIT at #14 as his floor. He believes Frazier will go no lower than #7.
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Post by bluechip on May 8, 2013 13:40:52 GMT -5
I know he's slouching a little, but doesn't Frazier look five and not three inches shorter than Meadows in this pic? They are listed as 6' and 6' 3" /photo/1 Good lord, one of those guys looks like a first round draft pick, the other looks like his scrappy pal that draws up the game winning trick play. By comparison:
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Post by amfox1 on May 8, 2013 15:59:28 GMT -5
Entire Kiley McDaniel mock (public): sbb.scout.com/2/1289798.html1 HOU RHP Mark Appel, Stanford 2 CHC RHP Jonathan Gray, Oklahoma 3 COL 3B Kris Bryant, San Diego 4 MIN CF Clint Frazier, Loganville HS (GA) 5 CLE 3B Colin Moran, North Carolina 6 MIA RHP Kohl Stewart, St. Pius X HS (TX) 7 BOS RHP Braden Shipley, Nevada8 KC 1B D.J. Peterson, New Mexico 9 PIT C Reese McGuire, Kentwood HS (WA) 10 TOR CF Austin Meadows, Grayson HS (GA) 11 NYM RF Hunter Renfroe, Mississippi State 12 SEA SS J.P. Crawford, Lakewood HS (CA) 13 SD 1B Dominic Smith, Serra HS (CA) 14 PIT RF Austin Wilson, Stanford 15 ARI RHP Ryne Stanek, Arkansas 16 PHI LHP Trey Ball, New Castle HS (IN) 17 CWS RHP Hunter Harvey, Bandys HS (NC) 18 LAD LHP Sean Manaea, Indiana State 19 STL CF Billy McKinney, Plano West HS (TX) 20 DET RF Aaron Judge, Fresno State 21 TB C Jon Denney, Yukon HS (OK) 22 BAL C Nick Ciuffo, Lexington HS (SC) 23 TEX RHP Chris Anderson, Jacksonville 24 OAK RHP Phil Bickford, Oaks Christian HS (CA) 25 SF RHP Aaron Blair, Marshall 26 MFY LHP Rob Kaminsky, St. Joseph HS (NJ) 27 CIN RHP Ryan Eades, LSU 28 STL RHP Andrew Thurman, UC-Irvine 29 TB RHP Alex Gonzalez, Oral Roberts 30 TEX SS Oscar Mercado, Gaither HS (FL) 31 ATL CF Josh Hart, Parkview HS (GA) 32 MFY SS Tim Anderson, East Central CC (MS) 33 MFY RF Michael Lorenzen, Cal St. Fullerton
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jimoh
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Posts: 3,987
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Post by jimoh on May 8, 2013 16:39:16 GMT -5
If Meadows, Stanek, and Manaea are really just not sponge-worthy, we picked a bad time to have the #7 pick.
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Post by amfox1 on May 8, 2013 18:00:19 GMT -5
I'd be surprised if Meadows is taken by the Red Sox; he's not their type of pick. I wouldn't write off the pitchers yet, but they need to show something between now and the end of the season. Manaea is hurt, which could explain the decrease in velocity (mid-80s this past weekend), but that may not be enough to take a chance with the #7 pick. Shipley has the benefit of upside from a college pitcher. Stanek has been inconsistent, so it really depends on the type of looks from Boston's scouts.
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Post by pedroelgrande on May 9, 2013 14:51:03 GMT -5
Don't you know? Frazier = Manny Ramirez, Stewart= Roger Clemens and Meadows = Ted Williams? I thought that was a known fact.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2013 9:52:58 GMT -5
Don't you know? Frazier = Manny Ramirez, Stewart= Roger Clemens and Meadows = Ted Williams? I thought that was a known fact. You are absolutely wrong. Meadows isn't Ted Williams, he's better. Williams couldn't play CF
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Post by jdb on May 10, 2013 10:27:55 GMT -5
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Post by pedroelgrande on May 10, 2013 10:40:34 GMT -5
Don't you know? Frazier = Manny Ramirez, Stewart= Roger Clemens and Meadows = Ted Williams? I thought that was a known fact. You are absolutely wrong. Meadows isn't Ted Williams, he's better. Williams couldn't play CF We are just splitting hair here then. All in on Moran unless bizzaro world occurs and Grey or Appel fall to 7 which - will. not. happen. Moran is a polished hitter and a good glove/arm at 3rd. Extreme Bat speed + plate discipline = Plus OBP = #WIN I have little or no faith in Ben Cherrington, so not sure what call will be made on draft day. Sasha Grey? I don't think she's eligible for the draft Moran is one of the guys they've reportedly been scouting heavy so you have that going for you and he does fit what they look for so thats two. I wouldn't describe his bat speed as extreme, its more loopy to me but I'm no expert in these things so maybe it is extreme. I do agree with moonstone in that Moran probably goes to Cleveland at 5 but stranger things have happened in the past. Its just a mock draft don't start hating on Cherry just yet.
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Post by mainesox on May 10, 2013 12:21:36 GMT -5
You may find Callis' answer to a question of mind interesting. Steve (Bradenton, FL): Do you believe Kohl Stewart is potential ace and how much development is necessary for him to get there? Jim Callis: I do. One scouting director told me his stuff is just as good as Appel’s and Gray’s, and he’s more athletic. Stewart will need some time to get acclimated to pro ball, do things like refine his command and use his changeup, build up the durability to pitch every fifth day. But with his stuff, he could be in the big leagues in 2015. This is my favorite blog we have at the moment. I do not know as much about these guys as some of you, and I enjoy your posts a lot. With that said: I finally have come down to my TOP 2. It is rough when all of the top 12 sound great and you want 2 or 3 of them for your team. I would be ecstatic with either Cliff Frazier or Kohl Stewart. Love these two high schoolers!! I think Frazier would be my personal favorite pick there, Stewart is a little bit harder for me to peg though. Law said just a few days ago that he's hearing there are questions about Stewart's durability, and his ability to ever be a 200+ IP guy; Callis on the other hand says his stuff is just as good as Appel or Gray and that he's more athletic, and he doesn't seem at all concerned about his durability, and I'm not sure which one to believe - if I believe Law there are probably 3-4 guys I'd prefer over Stewart, if I believe Callis he's right there at the top with Frazier. Personally I'd be okay with any of Frazier, Meadows, Moran, Stewart, Shipley, and possibly Stanek or Manaea.
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