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Post by sibbysisti on Dec 6, 2014 9:33:25 GMT -5
His skills have clearly deteriorated with age. Those are unacceptable OBP and CS stats. There has to be a better option. "Clubhouse karma" is overrated and not deserving of a roster spot. Find a stopgap until Swihart's promotion. Pitch-framing, on the other hand... ADD: also, one reason Ross' CS was so bad last year: he was Lester's personal catcher, and Lester is one of the worst players in the league at controlling the running game. Ross is a good pitch-framer. So, too, is Vasquez, according to Farrell and his pitchers, among others. Vasquez will probably start 75% of the games at his position. I'd rather a backup catcher be able to contribute more than what Ross has.
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Post by jmei on Dec 6, 2014 9:48:00 GMT -5
Pitch-framing, on the other hand... ADD: also, one reason Ross' CS was so bad last year: he was Lester's personal catcher, and Lester is one of the worst players in the league at controlling the running game. Ross is a good pitch-framer. So, too, is Vasquez, according to Farrell and his pitchers, among others. Vasquez will probably start 75% of the games at his position. I'd rather a backup catcher be able to contribute more than what Ross has. Do you have any alternate suggestions?
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Post by sibbysisti on Dec 6, 2014 11:28:19 GMT -5
Yasmany Grandal appears to be available. Of course it would take considerable assets to acquire his services. Not sure about his contract, though. Perhaps as part of a larger trade including Cashner and Cespedes.
Hundley is a FA in who may be available. Likewise Navarro, for whom Ben would have to trade. Contract expires end 2015. He wouldn't be happy as a backup but might be persuaded to re-up as Napoli and Papi are coming to the end of their time on the team.
Clearly, Cherington is perusing alternatives as his recent meeting with David Ross indicates.
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danr
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Posts: 1,871
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Post by danr on Dec 6, 2014 11:39:40 GMT -5
How close to being a major league starter is Swihart? What if Vazquez got hurt in ST, or very early in the season? Could Swihart take over?
I read the season wrap up piece by CH and he says Swihart is just about MLB ready.
If he is, then why not have both of them on the roster? It wouldn't be the first time the Sox have done something like that. That's how Veritek became the starting catcher.
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Post by soxcentral on Dec 6, 2014 11:44:11 GMT -5
This is the least relevant area to address assuming Swihart is as good as advertised, and is not more than a year away from being ready. Butler plus a strong MiLFA should suffice as depth, and if backup C really does seem to be the one thing holding us back from reaching the playoffs we can make a minor trade when the time comes.
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Post by jmei on Dec 6, 2014 11:49:13 GMT -5
Yasmany Grandal appears to be available. Of course it would take considerable assets to acquire his services. Not sure about his contract, though. Perhaps as part of a larger trade including Cashner and Cespedes. Hundley is a FA in who may be available. Likewise Navarro, for whom Ben would have to trade. Contract expires end 2015. He wouldn't be happy as a backup but might be persuaded to re-up as Napoli and Papi are coming to the end of their time on the team. Clearly, Cherington is perusing alternatives as his recent meeting with David Ross indicates. Grandal is somewhat overqualified to be a backup and will require a significant haul in trade. Navarro plays for a division rival who has indicated that they'd like to hang out to him. I've already mentioned Hundley as the one other acceptable backup, though he's going to cost a few more million a year than Ross and likely require a multi-year commitment. The point is that there aren't very many good backup catchers out there. Ross at one year, $1m is honestly one of the better options available.
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Post by jmei on Dec 6, 2014 11:53:55 GMT -5
How close to being a major league starter is Swihart? What if Vazquez got hurt in ST, or very early in the season? Could Swihart take over? I read the season wrap up piece by CH and he says Swihart is just about MLB ready. If he is, then why not have both of them on the roster? It wouldn't be the first time the Sox have done something like that. That's how Veritek became the starting catcher. I don't see him as major-league ready. He has development needs both as a hitter (plate discipline) and as a receiver (game-calling, framing). I think if you asked the front office, they'd prefer that he spend all of 2015 in Pawtucket polishing those peripheral skills. Maybe you could accelerate that somewhat if Swihart takes well to AAA and Vazquez goes down mid-season and they're in the playoff race, but I see zero chance that he cracks the Opening Day roster or is up in more than an emergency basis in April/May.
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Post by moonstone2 on Dec 6, 2014 12:36:57 GMT -5
A better question is what happens if they trade Vazquez and I think the answer is that they would need to sign Soto or trade for a veteran catcher like Ruiz.
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Post by sibbysisti on Dec 6, 2014 13:35:45 GMT -5
A better question is what happens if they trade Vazquez and I think the answer is that they would need to sign Soto or trade for a veteran catcher like Ruiz. Vasquez, at this point, is almost untouchable, unless a team seriously overpays for him and I doubt that happens, particularly after only one half season. And, that's even considering Swihart on the horizon. The only question is who will back him up until Swihart's time comes. I hope its someone who can hit above Mendoza, at least.
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Post by soxfanatic on Dec 6, 2014 13:54:16 GMT -5
Ross is a good pitch-framer. So, too, is Vasquez, according to Farrell and his pitchers, among others. Vasquez will probably start 75% of the games at his position. I'd rather a backup catcher be able to contribute more than what Ross has. Do you have any alternate suggestions? I would try to trade for Stephen Vogt of the A's. An offensive minded catcher, but with average framing numbers. He is someone who could be a throw-in in a potential Samardzija deal.
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Post by sibbysisti on Dec 6, 2014 14:12:10 GMT -5
Another good alternative. Threw out 13 of 33 runners this year while batting .279/.321 as back up. Thirty yr. old LH batter with a minimum salary.
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Post by moonstone2 on Dec 6, 2014 14:16:09 GMT -5
A better question is what happens if they trade Vazquez and I think the answer is that they would need to sign Soto or trade for a veteran catcher like Ruiz. Vasquez, at this point, is almost untouchable, unless a team seriously overpays for him and I doubt that happens, particularly after only one half season. And, that's even considering Swihart on the horizon. The only question is who will back him up until Swihart's time comes. I hope its someone who can hit above Mendoza, at least. First off I doubt that's true and there is zero evidence that there is. Secondly if it's true it's awfully stupid. Vazquez is a valuable asset who maybe at the peak of his value. I think you can get a team to give you a lot for a young catcher. There is no way that Vazquez should represent a stumbling block in a trade for a premium veteran player, especially if you could get a veteran stop gap to replace him.
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Post by sibbysisti on Dec 6, 2014 14:28:52 GMT -5
Vasquez, at this point, is almost untouchable, unless a team seriously overpays for him and I doubt that happens, particularly after only one half season. And, that's even considering Swihart on the horizon. The only question is who will back him up until Swihart's time comes. I hope its someone who can hit above Mendoza, at least. First off I doubt that's true and there is zero evidence that there is. Secondly if it's true it's awfully stupid. Vazquez is a valuable asset who maybe at the peak of his value. I think you can get a team to give you a lot for a young catcher. There is no way that Vazquez should represent a stumbling block in a trade for a premium veteran player, especially if you could get a veteran stop gap. It's obvious that there is "zero evidence" that Vasquez is untouchable as we are not privy to GM discussions. I'm just relying on Espn's Jason Stark who, in his list of 10 players to watch during the Winter Meetings wrote: "The Red Sox are open to trading any position player except for Mookie Betts, Xander Bogaerts, Runney Castillo and Christian Vasquez......." He must have gotten that from somewhere as he didn't qualify the statement as opinion.
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Post by mgoetze on Dec 6, 2014 14:55:05 GMT -5
Vazquez is a valuable asset who maybe at the peak of his value. Why on earth would he be at the peak of his value right now?
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Post by moonstone2 on Dec 6, 2014 14:57:44 GMT -5
Yeah whenever a baseball writer says something like that it's usually BS. They will trade him if they find a good deal just like anyone else.
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Post by moonstone2 on Dec 6, 2014 15:03:15 GMT -5
Vazquez is a valuable asset who maybe at the peak of his value. Why on earth would he be at the peak of his value right now? Because when Swihart is ready the team will have to trade one or the other anyways which will decrease the team's bargains power and the amount you can expect in a trade.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Dec 6, 2014 15:43:15 GMT -5
Why on earth would he be at the peak of his value right now? Because when Swihart is ready the team will have to trade one or the other anyways which will decrease the team's bargains power and the amount you can expect in a trade. This is really only true if the teams who want to trade for one of these players are colluding with each other.
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Dec 6, 2014 16:21:58 GMT -5
Has Jaso been ruled out completely? Seems like a good fit for us in some ways. 1 year of control. Great left handed bat who can catch some. And Oakland probably is real open to trading him cheap considering the health issues ( concussions ). They may not want much for him at all considering the health issues, one year of control and his $2.3 mil salary for a back up. I mean seriously cheap as in package like Drake Britton and Heath Hembree. Oakland does not want to pay him $2.3 mil to maybe get injured again as their back up catcher.
If given enough time, players can sometimes come back from concussive issues in some instances and we would maybe only need him for 1/2 a year and mainly as a pinch hitter and reserve catcher.
A risky move but we would have some injury depth in Pawtucket and we could probably afford the contract with no problem and we continue to need left handed bats.
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Post by jmei on Dec 6, 2014 16:33:10 GMT -5
Do you have any alternate suggestions? I would try to trade for Stephen Vogt of the A's. An offensive minded catcher, but with average framing numbers. He is someone who could be a throw-in in a potential Samardzija deal. Vogt is a good name to bring up, but I doubt he's available. As mentioned, he's not into his arbitration years yet and has five years of team control left, so I'm not sure why Oakland would want to move him.
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Post by jmei on Dec 6, 2014 16:44:01 GMT -5
Has Jaso been ruled out completely? Seems like a good fit for us in some ways. 1 year of control. Great left handed bat who can catch some. And Oakland probably is real open to trading him cheap considering the health issues ( concussions ). They may not want much for him at all considering the health issues, one year of control and his $2.3 mil salary for a back up. I mean seriously cheap as in package like Drake Britton and Heath Hembree. Oakland does not want to pay him $2.3 mil to maybe get injured again as their back up catcher. If given enough time, players can sometimes come back from concussive issues in some instances and we would maybe only need him for 1/2 a year and mainly as a pinch hitter and reserve catcher. A risky move but we would have some injury depth in Pawtucket and we could probably afford the contract with no problem and we continue to need left handed bats. I'm not sure why you think he'd come that cheaply in terms of trade cost. Even with his concussion issues, plenty of teams would see him as an appealing DH candidate, and he's a good enough hitter to be a regular DH. The broader point: if the backup catcher is going to play 20-25% of the reps at most, plus be injury insurance, is it worth spending valuable trade resources on a guy like Castro or Vogt or Jaso or Grandal?
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Post by moonstone2 on Dec 6, 2014 17:36:04 GMT -5
Because when Swihart is ready the team will have to trade one or the other anyways which will decrease the team's bargains power and the amount you can expect in a trade. This is really only true if the teams who want to trade for one of these players are colluding with each other. That is false. When the number of market participants is small and fixed, a decrease in the sellers bargaining power will cause the market value of the asset to fall with or without collusion from potential buyers.
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,824
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Post by nomar on Dec 6, 2014 17:52:34 GMT -5
We won't "have to" trade one or the other. They'll both be making the league minimum, we don't know what our DH situation will look like, and what would be wrong with keeping both and having perhaps the best catching tandem in the league?
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Post by moonstone2 on Dec 6, 2014 17:53:45 GMT -5
Has Jaso been ruled out completely? Seems like a good fit for us in some ways. 1 year of control. Great left handed bat who can catch some. And Oakland probably is real open to trading him cheap considering the health issues ( concussions ). They may not want much for him at all considering the health issues, one year of control and his $2.3 mil salary for a back up. I mean seriously cheap as in package like Drake Britton and Heath Hembree. Oakland does not want to pay him $2.3 mil to maybe get injured again as their back up catcher. If given enough time, players can sometimes come back from concussive issues in some instances and we would maybe only need him for 1/2 a year and mainly as a pinch hitter and reserve catcher. A risky move but we would have some injury depth in Pawtucket and we could probably afford the contract with no problem and we continue to need left handed bats. I'm not sure why you think he'd come that cheaply in terms of trade cost. Even with his concussion issues, plenty of teams would see him as an appealing DH candidate, and he's a good enough hitter to be a regular DH. The broader point: if the backup catcher is going to play 20-25% of the reps at most, plus be injury insurance, is it worth spending valuable trade resources on a guy like Castro or Vogt or Jaso or Grandal? [ The same thing could have been said for a CF last year. If they get a good catcher somehow assume he plays more than 20-25 percent of the time.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 6, 2014 17:58:53 GMT -5
Why on earth would he be at the peak of his value right now? Because when Swihart is ready the team will have to trade one or the other anyways which will decrease the team's bargains power and the amount you can expect in a trade. He's nearly untouchable because he's the starting catcher and they don't have another option, and if they trade him they're going to need to use other assets to get a replacement. Sure, maybe there's a chance that he's currently at his max trade value, thinking that he may get exposed somewhat or that the Sox may not get as much for him in say, two years. But there's also value to keeping the player and playing him, and given that this team lacks a viable catching alternative at present, I think they'd have to find a team that way overvalues Vazquez to make it worth trading him.
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danr
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Posts: 1,871
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Post by danr on Dec 6, 2014 18:01:01 GMT -5
We won't "have to" trade one or the other. They'll both be making the league minimum, we don't know what our DH situation will look like, and what would be wrong with keeping both and having perhaps the best catching tandem in the league? This usually only works for short periods of time, until one of them outperforms the other. The catching position is so important to the team overall that it really needs to held by one player primarily. A great catcher usually becomes one of, if not the, leading player on the team, and that can't happen if the catchers are being platooned. If Swihart is as good as anticipated, Vazquez will be traded for somebody really good. Count on it.
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