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2014-15 Offseason Non-Sox thread
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Dec 25, 2014 1:23:50 GMT -5
Jim Rice ?@jimricegnews 8h8 hours ago .@bowden_michael, who won 9 games for the @greenvilledrive in their inaugural 2006 season, has signed with @reds. Spent 2014 in Japan.
THAT Michael Bowden but not THAT Jim Rice.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Dec 25, 2014 19:40:16 GMT -5
Pleskoff's Top 10 has 4 SS, only 2 pitchers. m.rockies.mlb.com/news/article/104792060/bernie-pleskoffs-picks-top-10-prospects. . . . For those with twitter, @aceballstats is an interesting guy to follow. Right now he's putting out a lot of data on just how incredible Ricky Henderson's career was. Some examples: Ace of MLB Stats ?@aceballstats 12m12 minutes ago Rickey Henderson: 189 OPS+ in 1990. Miguel Cabrera: 164 OPS+ in 2012 (Triple Crown). Career-high OPS+ Willie Mays 185 Mike Trout 179 . . . In 1999, Rickey Henderson had a .423 OBP, the #Mets single-season OBP record by outfielder (4th overall). Rickey was 40. . . . Rickey Henderson played 469 games in his 40's, he had a .381 OBP during that time. Hank Aaron had a lifetime .374 OBP. . . . 93.8% (1,319) of Rickey Henderson's 1,406 SB came with his team within 4 runs (up or down). 60.3% (848) came with his team within 1 run. . . . Rickey Henderson is the only player in baseball history with 171+ HR & 690+ SB; he eclipsed those totals by 126 HR (297) & 716 SB (1,406). . . . Ace of MLB Stats ?@aceballstats 1m1 minute ago Ignore all of Rickey Henderson's SB. He is only one of two ever (Stan Musial) with 200+ HR, 3,000+ H, & .400+ OBP
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 26, 2014 5:43:55 GMT -5
I honestly am skeptical he should be in the HOF. Not first ballot anyway. That has a lot to do with what I think makes a hall of famer: I think it should have more to do with being at the pinnacle of the position and the game. In Jeter's case, there really never was a time he was the best in the game. Early on Nomar and Arod were better, then when Nomar broke down and Arod moved positions Hanley Ramirez and Jose Reyes were better, the last few years Tulo has been the best and Jeter has been below league average. The perfect comparable for him is Craig Biggio. Both guys were above average for a really long time (10th and 11th in career PAs), with like 2 years where they were among the top 10 or so guys in the league, and never a real MVP worthy season. Biggio will almost certainly get in before long, but hasn't made it yet in 2 attempts. The only significant difference between the two is that one played his entire career in the biggest fanbase in the game, while the other played for one of the smallest. The hall of fame should be about celebrating moments in time, so I think players who were iconic and clearly the best at there position and among the best in the game, even if its for a relatively short time, are at least as if not more deserving ...**cough (nomar) cough**... With Jeter, the most remarkable thing about his career is the huge number of PAs. His actual performance on a per plate appearance basis, its good, but kinda meh. Certainly not worthy of a first ballot HoF, and not even on the same planet as being worthy of every team in the league being basically forced to give you a going away gift. anyway, rant over, nothing to see here. I dislike Jeter, but he is a first ballot hall of famer! His D was very overrated, he should not have ever won a gold glove. Just look at his numbers, for me 3000 hits gets you into the hall first trip. I loved Nomar and sure there were some season he was better then Jeter. You just can't over look playing for 20 years at a very high level. It's not like Jeter played 20 years and was an average player. When you look at Baseball history Jeter was one of the best hitting shortstops ever. He won a ton of championships. Was the leader of most of those teams. Come on Sox fans show a little respect!
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Post by moonstone2 on Dec 26, 2014 10:12:48 GMT -5
I honestly am skeptical he should be in the HOF. Not first ballot anyway. That has a lot to do with what I think makes a hall of famer: I think it should have more to do with being at the pinnacle of the position and the game. In Jeter's case, there really never was a time he was the best in the game. Early on Nomar and Arod were better, then when Nomar broke down and Arod moved positions Hanley Ramirez and Jose Reyes were better, the last few years Tulo has been the best and Jeter has been below league average. The perfect comparable for him is Craig Biggio. Both guys were above average for a really long time (10th and 11th in career PAs), with like 2 years where they were among the top 10 or so guys in the league, and never a real MVP worthy season. Biggio will almost certainly get in before long, but hasn't made it yet in 2 attempts. The only significant difference between the two is that one played his entire career in the biggest fanbase in the game, while the other played for one of the smallest. The hall of fame should be about celebrating moments in time, so I think players who were iconic and clearly the best at there position and among the best in the game, even if its for a relatively short time, are at least as if not more deserving ...**cough (nomar) cough**... With Jeter, the most remarkable thing about his career is the huge number of PAs. His actual performance on a per plate appearance basis, its good, but kinda meh. Certainly not worthy of a first ballot HoF, and not even on the same planet as being worthy of every team in the league being basically forced to give you a going away gift. anyway, rant over, nothing to see here. I dislike Jeter, but he is a first ballot hall of famer! His D was very overrated, he should not have ever won a gold glove. Just look at his numbers, for me 3000 hits gets you into the hall first trip. I loved Nomar and sure there were some season he was better then Jeter. You just can't over look playing for 20 years at a very high level. It's not like Jeter played 20 years and was an average player. When you look at Baseball history Jeter was one of the best hitting shortstops ever. He won a ton of championships. Was the leader of most of those teams. Come on Sox fans show a little respect! The year Jeter was drafted, the Astros had the #1 pick. The Stro's Michigan area scout at the time who loved Jeter for his on the field play and off the charts makeup, begged the team to take Jeter first. The team refused instead going with a proven "cheaper" college player in Phil Nevin under orders from owner Drayton McClain. The scout believed so highly in Jeter that he quit in frustration over this decision. Had the Astro's drafted Jeter would he still be a first ballot hall of fame player? Maybe, especially had he combined with the Killer B's to bring a championship to Houston, but he certainly wouldn't be revered with the almost godlike status that he has today.
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 26, 2014 11:06:31 GMT -5
Has there ever been a 3000 hit player who was not a 1st ballot HOFer?
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Post by brianthetaoist on Dec 26, 2014 11:20:18 GMT -5
Had the Astro's drafted Jeter would he still be a first ballot hall of fame player? Maybe, especially had he combined with the Killer B's to bring a championship to Houston, but he certainly wouldn't be revered with the almost godlike status that he has today. I think it's important to separate the former (HoF) from the latter (rapturous hagiography and embarrassing syncophancy) when it comes to Jeter. I'm a long-time critic of the godlike nonsense that surrounds Jeter. It's ridiculous, a perfect example of the NY-centric mythology around baseball players. If Stan Musial and Joe DiMaggio switched teams, Musial would be in Simon & Garfunkel songs, and DiMaggio would be just another great baseball player ... But let's just be realistic: Jeter's a clear Hall of Famer, a no-doubter. Arguing otherwise is as far off the mark as the folks who try to make the case that Jeter's in the pantheon of Greatest Ever Players.
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Post by moonstone2 on Dec 26, 2014 11:31:19 GMT -5
Had the Astro's drafted Jeter would he still be a first ballot hall of fame player? Maybe, especially had he combined with the Killer B's to bring a championship to Houston, but he certainly wouldn't be revered with the almost godlike status that he has today. I think it's important to separate the former (HoF) from the latter (rapturous hagiography and embarrassing syncophancy) when it comes to Jeter. I'm a long-time critic of the godlike nonsense that surrounds Jeter. It's ridiculous, a perfect example of the NY-centric mythology around baseball players. If Stan Musial and Joe DiMaggio switched teams, Musial would be in Simon & Garfunkel songs, and DiMaggio would be just another great baseball player ... But let's just be realistic: Jeter's a clear Hall of Famer, a no-doubter. Arguing otherwise is as far off the mark as the folks who try to make the case that Jeter's in the pantheon of Greatest Ever Players. I dunno....."Where have you gone....Stan Musial" doesn't quite have the same ring to it.
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Post by flasox27 on Dec 26, 2014 11:46:25 GMT -5
I am no fan of the Yankees, but Jeter deserves to be a first ballot HOFamer despite his obvious fielding deficiencies. There is something to be said for longevity as it translates to statistics. Take for instance, YAZ who was elected as a first time HOF'er, was a non factor in fielding in his later careerbut became the all time leader in the same categories for the Sox as Jeter did for the Yanks.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 26, 2014 11:48:04 GMT -5
Has there ever been a 3000 hit player who was not a 1st ballot HOFer? Only one that comes to mind is the great Pete Rose and we all know why he didn't make it.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Dec 26, 2014 11:50:47 GMT -5
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Post by James Dunne on Dec 26, 2014 12:01:36 GMT -5
Biggio isn't in yet. But that is silly and should be resolved this year. And Palmeiro, but obviously different circumstances there.
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Post by kingofthetrill on Dec 26, 2014 12:54:19 GMT -5
The year Jeter was drafted, the Astros had the #1 pick. The Stro's Michigan area scout at the time who loved Jeter for his on the field play and off the charts makeup, begged the team to take Jeter first. The team refused instead going with a proven "cheaper" college player in Phil Nevin under orders from owner Drayton McClain. The scout believed so highly in Jeter that he quit in frustration over this decision. Had the Astro's drafted Jeter would he still be a first ballot hall of fame player? Maybe, especially had he combined with the Killer B's to bring a championship to Houston, but he certainly wouldn't be revered with the almost godlike status that he has today. Didn't Jeter tell teams that he only wanted to play for the Yankees and would only sign with them? For some reason I always thought that but I did a search and could not find anything to back that up. I wonder if everything I've known as a kid has been a lie.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Dec 26, 2014 13:25:59 GMT -5
The Pirates strike me as a good bet.
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Post by mgoetze on Dec 26, 2014 13:37:55 GMT -5
The Pirates strike me as a good bet. None of those strike me as good bets, though the Pirates, A's and Rangers are probably less bad than the others. Phillies though... LOL. I wouldn't bet on them even at 200 to 1.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 26, 2014 13:46:21 GMT -5
I honestly am skeptical he should be in the HOF. Not first ballot anyway. That has a lot to do with what I think makes a hall of famer: I think it should have more to do with being at the pinnacle of the position and the game. In Jeter's case, there really never was a time he was the best in the game. Early on Nomar and Arod were better, then when Nomar broke down and Arod moved positions Hanley Ramirez and Jose Reyes were better, the last few years Tulo has been the best and Jeter has been below league average. The perfect comparable for him is Craig Biggio. Both guys were above average for a really long time (10th and 11th in career PAs), with like 2 years where they were among the top 10 or so guys in the league, and never a real MVP worthy season. Biggio will almost certainly get in before long, but hasn't made it yet in 2 attempts. The only significant difference between the two is that one played his entire career in the biggest fanbase in the game, while the other played for one of the smallest. The hall of fame should be about celebrating moments in time, so I think players who were iconic and clearly the best at there position and among the best in the game, even if its for a relatively short time, are at least as if not more deserving ...**cough (nomar) cough**... With Jeter, the most remarkable thing about his career is the huge number of PAs. His actual performance on a per plate appearance basis, its good, but kinda meh. Certainly not worthy of a first ballot HoF, and not even on the same planet as being worthy of every team in the league being basically forced to give you a going away gift. anyway, rant over, nothing to see here. Wow. Spoken like a true Red Sox fan and Yankee hater. As a fellow Red Sox fan and Yankee hater all I can tell you is that Jeter is a slam dunk first ballot HOFer and should be, and unfortunately, Nomar at best is a borderline candidate and that's being generous. Nomar, I believe, if he had never been hit by Al Reyes, might have very well have been a HOFer. Reyes hit him at the end of '99, and despite that Nomar was arguably better in 2000, but by 2001, that wrist was never right again. Jeter, OTOH, was a key member of a five time world champion, the only guy in the lineup who can make that claim. He had longevity and was the best among his position, even if his defense was lacking. Then again, Nomar's defense by 2004 was so lacking that the Sox felt the need to get a SS who could play defense and could stay on the field consistently. Honestly, if you were a Yankees fan would you be saying the same thing? I think any neutral baseball fan will tell you that Jeter is a no doubt about it HOFer, and Nomar, had he stayed healthy, would have been one, too. The holy trinity of SS was A-Rod, Nomar, and Jeter, and I honestly thought Nomar was the 2nd best of the three, but we didn't think about A-Rod and his steroids back then, and all three in my book were neck and neck. They all looked like HOFers by 2000. Jeter was able to stay the course and unlike A-Rod, stay clean (as far as we know). Who knows? Maybe one day the Veterans' Committee will look kindly upon Nomar's career.
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Post by Don Caballero on Dec 26, 2014 14:18:36 GMT -5
The Marlins could be a good darkhorse bet. Long shot, I now, but that team has a lot of potential.
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Dec 26, 2014 14:21:56 GMT -5
Who's catching for the Pirates now? Also if the Padres do flip Myers for Hamels, while highly combustible, they have high upside as well if you went in today at 25/1. If I were a Yankees fan I would say why not at 18/1 too.
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Post by bigpupp on Dec 26, 2014 14:49:19 GMT -5
Has there ever been a 3000 hit player who was not a 1st ballot HOFer? Rafael Palmeiro has 500 homers and 3000 hits and couldn't even get the 5‰ to stay on the ballot.
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steveofbradenton
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Watching Spring Training, the FCL, and the Florida State League
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Post by steveofbradenton on Dec 26, 2014 15:20:01 GMT -5
Who's catching for the Pirates now? Also if the Padres do flip Myers for Hamels, while highly combustible, they have high upside as well if you went in today at 25/1. If I were a Yankees fan I would say why not at 18/1 too. Cervelli
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Post by moonstone2 on Dec 26, 2014 15:35:58 GMT -5
The year Jeter was drafted, the Astros had the #1 pick. The Stro's Michigan area scout at the time who loved Jeter for his on the field play and off the charts makeup, begged the team to take Jeter first. The team refused instead going with a proven "cheaper" college player in Phil Nevin under orders from owner Drayton McClain. The scout believed so highly in Jeter that he quit in frustration over this decision. Had the Astro's drafted Jeter would he still be a first ballot hall of fame player? Maybe, especially had he combined with the Killer B's to bring a championship to Houston, but he certainly wouldn't be revered with the almost godlike status that he has today. Didn't Jeter tell teams that he only wanted to play for the Yankees and would only sign with them? For some reason I always thought that but I did a search and could not find anything to back that up. I wonder if everything I've known as a kid has been a lie. Certainly possible but I had never read anything like that. The above story is from Olney's book "The Last Night of the Yankee Dynasty". According to Onley, the real reason he fell in the draft was that he had a committed to play at Michigan and there were rumors he wanted $1 million to sign which was unheard of back then. He certainly never told the scout, Hal Newhouser, that he wouldn't play for the Astros.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Dec 26, 2014 16:15:05 GMT -5
The Pirates strike me as a good bet. Tigers/Mets same odds and longer odds than Angels/Giants/Brewers same odds seems strange.
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 26, 2014 16:17:16 GMT -5
The Cubs at 9/1 is laughable. They aren't going to be good.
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Dec 26, 2014 16:25:44 GMT -5
Cubs can be good if Arietta is real, and Baez & Soler perform. 9/1 seems aggressive though.
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 26, 2014 16:30:42 GMT -5
Cubs can be good if Arietta is real, and Baez & Soler perform. 9/1 seems aggressive though. I think we know what happens when relying on kids that much.
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Dec 26, 2014 16:35:36 GMT -5
Cubs can be good if Arietta is real, and Baez & Soler perform. 9/1 seems aggressive though. I think we know what happens when relying on kids that much. Yeah but not every prospect busts. That being said, Baez scares me, especially in his adjustment period. I wouldn't bet on them to be clear.
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