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Minor League Rule 5/Reserve Lists
ericmvan
Veteran
Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 9,027
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Post by ericmvan on Dec 1, 2014 23:23:29 GMT -5
Where a player is listed right now [on minor league rosters] is completely meaningless. Actually, it's quite meaningful: it determines eligibility for the minor league phases of the Rule 5 draft. And those players are much easier to keep.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 2, 2014 7:55:41 GMT -5
Where a player is listed right now [on minor league rosters] is completely meaningless. Actually, it's quite meaningful: it determines eligibility for the minor league phases of the Rule 5 draft. And those players are much easier to keep. No, it doesn't, because there's no way that what's listed publicly is the minor league reserve list, which is the list that actually matters.
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Post by moonstone2 on Dec 2, 2014 21:07:37 GMT -5
Actually, it's quite meaningful: it determines eligibility for the minor league phases of the Rule 5 draft. And those players are much easier to keep. No, it doesn't, because there's no way that what's listed publicly is the minor league reserve list, which is the list that actually matters. That said, he's likely been assigned to AAA. He's still Rule 5 eligible and if he weren't on the AAA roster he'd get taken in the AAA portion of the draft.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 2, 2014 21:12:46 GMT -5
No, it doesn't, because there's no way that what's listed publicly is the minor league reserve list, which is the list that actually matters. That said, he's likely been assigned to AAA. He's still Rule 5 eligible and if he weren't on the AAA roster he'd get taken in the AAA portion of the draft. Well, getting hyper-technical: technically nobody has been "assigned" to any level right now, in terms of the active roster. It's just like MLB, where there's no meaningful 25-man active roster during the offseason. FWIW, Blair was on the Red Sox AAA reserve list last offseason, so that's not really saying much.
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Post by moonstone2 on Dec 2, 2014 21:46:40 GMT -5
That said, he's likely been assigned to AAA. He's still Rule 5 eligible and if he weren't on the AAA roster he'd get taken in the AAA portion of the draft. Well, getting hyper-technical: technically nobody has been "assigned" to any level right now, in terms of the active roster. It's just like MLB, where there's no meaningful 25-man active roster during the offseason. FWIW, Blair was on the Red Sox AAA reserve list last offseason, so that's not really saying much. Assignment is a technical term when a player is placed on the reserve list of a minor league club, or a new major league club. Blair was on the AAA reserve list a year ago because he was Rule 5 eligible. It does say something that they were willing to give him a spot considering his track record. The AAA roster consists of any players who are not eligible to be drafted under rule five yet played in AAA last year, I think that was just Owens, plus any Rule five eligible players that they want to protect, like Jason Garcia for example. I believe they can only keep 37. I would have to examine it but I think it's possible they could have a bit of a crunch here. What that would mean is that some of the fringier prospects at AA who aren't rule five eligible this winter. Mike aguiliera comes to mind, might have a tough time getting on the AAA active roster this year.
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Post by DesignatedForAssignment on Dec 2, 2014 22:33:11 GMT -5
The AAA roster consists of any players who are not eligible to be drafted under rule five yet played in AAA last year, I think that was just Owens, plus any Rule five eligible players that they want to protect, like Jason Garcia for example. I believe they can only keep 37. I would have to examine it but I think it's possible they could have a bit of a crunch here. What that would mean is that some of the fringier prospects at AA who aren't rule five eligible this winter. Mike aguiliera comes to mind, might have a tough time getting on the AAA active roster this year. Now some of us are confused. 37 minus Owens, Johnson, Marrero equals 34 spots. Sox have 40 players that are Rule 5 eligible ... if 34 are protected, then 6 of the 40 will be exposed to AAA Rule 5.
If Augliera or Haley or others are not added to AAA reserve now as one of the 34, then they cannot come up to AAA in 2015, even in August? Cannot be!
edit: Dalier Hinojosa ... forgot him. 33 spots.
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Post by moonstone2 on Dec 2, 2014 23:14:54 GMT -5
The AAA roster consists of any players who are not eligible to be drafted under rule five yet played in AAA last year, I think that was just Owens, plus any Rule five eligible players that they want to protect, like Jason Garcia for example. I believe they can only keep 37. I would have to examine it but I think it's possible they could have a bit of a crunch here. What that would mean is that some of the fringier prospects at AA who aren't rule five eligible this winter. Mike aguiliera comes to mind, might have a tough time getting on the AAA active roster this year. Now some of us are confused. 37 minus Owens, Johnson, Marrero equals 34 spots. Sox have 40 players that are Rule 5 eligible ... if 34 are protected, then 6 of the 40 will be exposed to AAA Rule 5.
If Augliera or Haley or others are not added to AAA reserve now as one of the 34, then they cannot come up to AAA in 2015, even in August? Cannot be!
edit: Dalier Hinojosa ... forgot him. 33 spots. [br Look at it differently. Take all 26 players on the projected AAA roster. Say they keep all 26 because someone will be on the DL likely. Subtract players on the major league roster and you get 12. Virtually the entire AA projected roster is rule five eligible. Only, Krauss, Heller, Gunkel, Mercedes, and Aguliera are not, so that's around another 20 players. There are guys below AA that I am sure they would like to keep from the draft like Garcia and Jerez. So they easily get to 37. Now does this mean that if Simon Mercedes dominates in AA that he can't be promoted? Of course not. But what it does mean is that all else equal guys like Mercedes and Aguliera are going to be behind guys like Luis Diaz when promotion decisions are made. This could easily affect a guy like Aguliera who's is likely never going to be an obvious choice when a spot opens up due to injury or promotion.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 2, 2014 23:23:22 GMT -5
There were six active guys who were protected on the Double-A reserve list last year. It really doesn't mean anything that Blair was on the AAA roster. The AA reserve list was basically all fungible org guys like Leonel Escobar.
If there are 40 guys who are eligible, the guys who aren't on the AAA reserve list are probably something like Aneudis Peralta, Zach Kapstein, Jayson Hernandez, Dreily Guerrero, maybe Mickey Pena because of the suspension, maybe guys like Sopilka or Roberson. I wouldn't worry about it.
Last year there were 39 guys eligible and they protected 33 on the AAA reserve list. There's room.
No idea where you're getting that last bit about getting promoted to AAA. That has nothing to do with it. If there was room on the AAA reserve list for Mario Alcantara last year, there's room for whoever they want to put there.
Players who made it to AAA last year and aren't R5 eligible: Deven Marrero, Henry Owens, Dalier Hinojosa, Brian Johnson if you count playoffs Same, AA: Mike Miller, Kevin Heller, Mike Augliera, Justin Haley
I can't see it being an issue.
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Post by moonstone2 on Dec 3, 2014 2:41:46 GMT -5
You have to be placed on the AAA reserve list to be placed on the AAA active roster. Just as a player already on the 40 man major league reserve list stands a better chance of a major league promotion than one that is not, a player who is on the AAA reserve list stands a better chance of being promoted than someone who is not. Of course just as is true of the major leagues, it's not a firm barrier.
Virtually all players placed on the AAA reserve squad who are rule five eligible are prospects of some stripe. That Blair was placed on that roster means they thought he was a prospect. The reason most players in the organization who are eligible are placed on the AAA reserve list is because most non-prospects are released by the time they are rule five eligible. Just as being drafted is meaningful as it means that someone stood up for the player. Being protected is too because it means the organization feels you have enough talent to keep.
Temporary assignments have different rules but in general the organizatio can't just put whomever they want on the AAA active roster anymore than they can put whomever they want on the major league active roster.
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Post by James Dunne on Dec 3, 2014 12:37:49 GMT -5
I guess, but roughly half of the Triple-A active roster is on the major league 40-man. The Triple-A reserve list is usually about 10-15 guys who are actually in Triple-A, and then space for 22-27 who are scattered about lower in the minors - and several of those spaces aren't filled. All of the rules you're referencing are absolutely correct, there's just not a roster crunch in the way you seem to be referencing. A hypothetical world exists where the Red Sox can't promote someone like Augliera to Triple-A because of roster restrictions, but realistically it isn't a problem.
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Post by DesignatedForAssignment on Dec 3, 2014 13:58:46 GMT -5
I guess, but roughly half of the Triple-A active roster is on the major league 40-man. The Triple-A reserve list is usually about 10-15 guys who are actually in Triple-A, and then space for 22-27 who are scattered about lower in the minors - and several of those spaces aren't filled. All of the rules you're referencing are absolutely correct, there's just not a roster crunch in the way you seem to be referencing. A hypothetical world exists where the Red Sox can't promote someone like Augliera to Triple-A because of roster restrictions, but realistically it isn't a problem. If the AAA reserve list becomes full and they wish to add Augliera next July, somebody must come off. Not sure how that works. Any repercussions on removing somebody mid-season?
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Post by James Dunne on Dec 3, 2014 15:19:15 GMT -5
Has anyone's Triple-A reserve list ever been full, though? I've seriously never heard of a team needing to make a move because of it.
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 3, 2014 15:31:10 GMT -5
Has anyone's Triple-A reserve list ever been full, though? I've seriously never heard of a team needing to make a move because of it. No one ever noticed. Man this is the kind of stuff I'd have to be paid to care about.
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Post by James Dunne on Dec 3, 2014 15:36:29 GMT -5
Has anyone's Triple-A reserve list ever been full, though? I've seriously never heard of a team needing to make a move because of it. No one ever noticed. Man this is the kind of stuff I'd have to be paid to care about. Believe me, people around here would notice. The little intricacies of roster construction rules might not be your bag, but it's the kind of thing that inspires multiple-page debates here.
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Post by moonstone2 on Dec 3, 2014 16:56:24 GMT -5
I guess, but roughly half of the Triple-A active roster is on the major league 40-man. The Triple-A reserve list is usually about 10-15 guys who are actually in Triple-A, and then space for 22-27 who are scattered about lower in the minors - and several of those spaces aren't filled. All of the rules you're referencing are absolutely correct, there's just not a roster crunch in the way you seem to be referencing. A hypothetical world exists where the Red Sox can't promote someone like Augliera to Triple-A because of roster restrictions, but realistically it isn't a problem. I am sure it happens as players are picked in the Triple A portion of the draft and you would assume that if the team had room on it's AAA roster they would have protected that player. Usually players who are removed from the AAA roster due to a lack of space are just given their release. In most cases, a guy who isn't one of the top 78 players in the organization after 4 or 5 + years of trying, should probably find another profession. Though I am sure there have been players who have been released from AAA who went on to play in the majors, though no one comes to mind. I am not under the illusion that the Red Sox would lose a top prospect this way, but they might very well lose a player from the organization. In my opinion it's the scouting staff's job to fill as many of these organizational slots as possible with players who have at least a modicum of talent that has at least the off-chance of playing in the majors. If a player doesn't have the talent to ever play in the majors especially after four or five years of minor league play, then the player should probably be released in favor of someone with more talent. The Red Sox have done a pretty good job of looking high and low for such players and such may lose somebody with talent in the AAA portion of the draft or be forced to release such a player. However, keep in mind I have a pretty broad definition of such a player. Mario Alcantarra, for instance has had awful results, but he is someone with talent that I would prefer not to give away for nothing. This topic may seem esoteric to some, but some may find it interesting. But I would request, if you "don't care" about the topic being discussed, then don't post. Comments that you have to be "paid to care" about the topic are rude and not productive. I don't post about topics I don't care about.
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Post by moonstone2 on Dec 3, 2014 17:06:12 GMT -5
I guess, but roughly half of the Triple-A active roster is on the major league 40-man. The Triple-A reserve list is usually about 10-15 guys who are actually in Triple-A, and then space for 22-27 who are scattered about lower in the minors - and several of those spaces aren't filled. All of the rules you're referencing are absolutely correct, there's just not a roster crunch in the way you seem to be referencing. A hypothetical world exists where the Red Sox can't promote someone like Augliera to Triple-A because of roster restrictions, but realistically it isn't a problem. If the AAA reserve list becomes full and they wish to add Augliera next July, somebody must come off. Not sure how that works. Any repercussions on removing somebody mid-season? You would have to waive the player being removed and he'd probably get taken. Realistically what would happen is that Aguilera and Diaz both be candidates for recall and there was realistically only a spot for one. All else equal Aguiliera would be passed over because Diaz is on the AAA roster. Of course if Aguilera were far and away the best pitcher in AA, they would find a way to make room for him. Same thing happens at the major league level. A player in AAA that isn't on the 40 man roster would have trouble being called up unless he were far and away the best candidate to help the major league team at that point.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 3, 2014 17:22:32 GMT -5
If the AAA reserve list becomes full and they wish to add Augliera next July, somebody must come off. Not sure how that works. Any repercussions on removing somebody mid-season? You would have to waive the player being removed and he'd probably get taken. Realistically what would happen is that Aguilera and Diaz both be candidates for recall and there was realistically only a spot for one. All else equal Aguiliera would be passed over because Diaz is on the AAA roster. Of course if Aguilera were far and away the best pitcher in AA, they would find a way to make room for him. Same thing happens at the major league level. A player in AAA that isn't on the 40 man roster would have trouble being called up unless he were far and away the best candidate to help the major league team at that point. I'm going to have lots of spare time flying tomorrow. I may try to reconstruct last year on the AAA reserve list to see if this is something that ever becomes an issue. Like James, I assume it doesn't, but it's interesting (to me, you, and a select few, but hey, why not?).
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Post by DesignatedForAssignment on Dec 3, 2014 17:32:05 GMT -5
I was approaching this more in terms of its practical implications.
Old Ron Bermudez rotated on and off AAA roster for several years. An advantage of that? Only one extra OF gets put on the AAA reserve roster ... rather than a whole group of fill ins.
I would not claim that this situation would prevent players such as Gragnani or Kyle Martin from filling in at AAA in the coming season or ending the season there. But if the Sox know that this would add 2 extra players to AAA for Dec 2015, then it is a disincentive to do such with too many players.
(Gragnani & Martin are not Rule 5 eligible until Dec 2016, so they don't get on the AAA roster in DEC 2015 unless they play in AAA in 2015.)
This does not seem to be an issue for the Sox, but the Sox may add another AAA draft player next week and helps shed light on how those players end up unprotected.
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Post by moonstone2 on Dec 3, 2014 19:45:33 GMT -5
I guess it depends on what you mean by issue. There are some players who if released some would care about and some would not. Remember too they are going to sign 3-4 minor league free agents.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 5, 2014 15:28:03 GMT -5
OK, so I've got the reserve lists from 2012 and 2013 and I'll take a look at what I can find. However, I'd note that a player apparently does not need to be put on waivers to be moved from one minor league reserve list to another - Tony Thomas finished 2012 in Pawtucket, but he was on the Double-A Reserve List for Rule 5. As far as we know, that apparently didn't require waivers. My guess is that if they ever needed a spot on the AAA Reserve List during the season, they could just move the Oscar Perez/Mario Alcantara Single-A-but-I'm-eligible-for-Rule-5 type guys off to make room.
That alone might solve the issue here, but I'll look anyway.
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