Espinoza Historical discussion spillover

71 pitchers have won the Cy Young Award since it began in 1956 the year after Cy Young died. The average height of those pitchers is 6-2, the average weight, 200 lbs. The shortest winners were Steve Stone, Mike Marshall and Whitey Ford at 5-10. The lightest was Ron Guidry at 160 (with Pedro and Tim Lincecum at 170). The tallest was Randy Johnson at 6-10. The heaviest was Sebathia at 250. 

I don't think there is any question that the quality of pitching overall today is superior to what it was several generations ago. Not only are more pitchers throwing harder than ever before, there also are refinements and new pitches that were not around prior to WWII, including the slider and the cutter. The science of pitching is much better understood. However, the great pitchers of the past would be great pitchers today. Walter Johnson, who is second to Cy Young in wins, was said to have thrown in the 95-100 MPH range in the 1920s. Dizzy Dean threw in that range in the 1930s - along with many others. Bob Feller, Herb Score, and many others did so in the 1950s, when my memories start. I saw the great Oriole pitchers repeatedly in the 1960s and 70s and there is no doubt in my mind that Palmer & Co. would be among the best today.

Relief pitching did not really become a major specialty until the late 50s and early 60s, and even then it was not used to lighten the burden and lessen the innings pitched by the starters the way it is today. It was used when the starters faltered. As I recall, the "closer" became an identified position and began to be widely employed in the late 60s. But even then, if the starer was going well he didn't leave the game. Consequently, the good pitchers completed high percentages of their starts. When Denny McClain won 31 games in 1967 he completed 28 of his starts and pitched 336 innings.

The physical feat of being a successful starter in the era before the specialized RP and limited pitch counts means those pitchers had to have far greater endurance and had to maintain command and control far longer through many more innings than what is required today. So I don't have any doubt that the good ones then would be good today.

Jim Ed: I heard an interview with Eddie Lopat (at least I think it was Lopat) some years ago, and he said exactly that: there were guys in the lineup to whom you could let up a bit, and rest.

For what it's worth.

Not in my lifetime. I was covering baseball in the late 60s and early 70s as part of my work at UPI and those pitchers I saw and wrote about (one of my features on the Orioles in 1969, "The Happiest Ballclub," done with the great photographer Dirck Halstead, was reprinted in that year's World Series Program) were "throwing that way" all the time. And they were doing it every four games instead of five now. The Orioles had four 20-game winners in 1971, something never done before or since.

Keep in mind that the casualty rate among pitchers was enormous. If a shoulder or elbow went that was the end. And many pitchers had very short careers. These fellows who managed ten to 15 years, or more, of regular pitching were amazing exceptions. 

Also, there is documentation of the pitching speed of Johnson and Dean and others. I just can't recall where I read it - it was a while ago. There was some science then. It didn't all start recently. There were people keeping track of things. There are a great number of eyewitness accounts. And there were films of baseball from the early 20s on, maybe even earlier. And speeds can be computed from film.

I don't disagree that the overall quality of pitching was comparable to today's. All I am saying is that the really good pitchers would be really good today, maybe even better.

I remember being in HS and Jeff Juden, from two towns over, was drafted in the first round because he was hitting 88-90 as an 18-y/o. I watched plenty of ML and minor-league baseball, and the reality is that pitchers throw probably an average of 3-4 mph harder than they did back in the 1980s. A major-league average fastball back when I was a kid was 87-89 for a RH. Now it's more like 91-92. Certainly, some of the outliers (Feller, Ryan, Clemens, JR Richard) threw just as hard as today's elite fireballers. But the overall quality of BOTH pitching and hitting has clearly improved.

Thanks. I guess I didn't realize the epidemic of lack of historical knowledge had spread to baseball. 

Thanks Tony. Interesting aside, I know an orthopedist who worked on Yount's hand (he was an ortho resident at the time, working with Bill Morgan). He off-handedly mentioned the surgery when we were talking, and didn't mention (or even recall) Yount's name. But as soon as he said it, I was like..."Oh, yeah, Andy Yount, 8th overall pick, hit high 90s in HS. Cut his hand mourning at his friend's grave." Awful end to an incredibly promising career. Even the Yanks have Brien Taylor...goes to show how fragile a pitching career is. Here's to hoping Espinoza gets to see his through (career-threatening, at least) injury-free. Love the simple delivery and easy, lightning-quick arm. He's a regular triple-digit threat waiting to happen.

SABR=Society of American Baseball Research, both statistical and historical.

Steve,

If you were following Yount at the time, you could dismiss the SSS 38 innings that year but instead tune into two comments- one, reports of a three-quarters delivered fastball just under 100mph that had explosive movement into righty hitters, but more telling- the Atlanta Braves scouting director compared him to Kerry Wood stating that he was the best pitching prospect he'd seen in 20 years. He was the Redsox Brien Taylor/Len Bias/Normand Levielle of the last 50 years.

Huh, don't know why I thought 8th. I stand corrected. That did seem awful high since I remember '92, not '94, being painful to watch.

He squeezed a glass in his hand, there was no smashing of beer bottles.

I don't put any stock in the limited results from less than 40 innings in SS ball. That's far more the 'norm' for HS pitchers than rocketing through the system with 1.- ERAs. I put a lot more stock in scouting reports and industry quotes. If he'd had two more years, then I'd be more inclined to look at the statistical results and give credence to them.

Umm...clearly my attempt at humor needed more water added.

I don't really see the resemblance.

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