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Xander for Thor (Syndergaard, not the God) straight up.
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Post by Guidas on Jul 24, 2015 14:21:53 GMT -5
Would anyone here do that?
Personally, I am always a little leery of trading position players for pitchers, but this feels like equal pain for both teams, and fills equal needs, so, if I was up for a bold move, I think I'd strongly consider.
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Jul 24, 2015 16:29:32 GMT -5
I would pass, but this isn't as easy of a call as it once would have been.
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Post by arzjake on Jul 24, 2015 18:50:52 GMT -5
I believe you have to much time on your hands
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Post by dcsoxfan on Jul 27, 2015 8:33:34 GMT -5
Would anyone here do that? Personally, I am always a little leery of trading position players for pitchers, but this feels like equal pain for both teams, and fills equal needs, so, if I was up for a bold move, I think I'd strongly consider. Don't the Mets have two more years on control over Syndergaard? With that in mind, I think I'd do it. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Jul 27, 2015 9:02:27 GMT -5
I would not do this, no thanks. Noah looks great but so does Xander and while I'd never say never to trading anyone, a guy like Xander is the type of home grown cornerstone you want. that's a premium Noah hasn't proven to be good enough to over come. If you trade Xander how could anyone feel safe unless they had a no trade clause?
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KB24
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Post by KB24 on Jul 27, 2015 9:07:36 GMT -5
Why should anyone on this team feel entitled enough to think they have a permanently safe roster spot? This team has done nothing but under-perform for two straight years so a major shake-up is needed anyway. Cherrington's only goal should be putting the best team out on the field, not worrying about the psyche of his remaining players post trade. Maybe it would actually light a fire under them for once.
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Post by greatscottcooper on Jul 27, 2015 9:17:25 GMT -5
Between trades and free agency it seems that we have more options to add to our pitching than we do to replace Bogaerts. Value wise I think it's a good fair trade but I don't think I do it.
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Post by chavopepe2 on Jul 27, 2015 9:25:17 GMT -5
Pitchers - no matter how old they are - are way to volatile to give up an asset like Bogaerts for.
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Post by Smittyw on Jul 27, 2015 9:58:07 GMT -5
I wouldn't trade Xander straight up for Thor the god.
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Post by scottysmalls on Jul 27, 2015 9:59:25 GMT -5
This is just switching problems, even if both keep performing as they are neither is significantly better, and I see it as more likely that Bogaerts takes a bigger step forward anyways.
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Post by jmei on Jul 27, 2015 10:04:32 GMT -5
If they had an alternative MLB-ready shortstop option, I'd consider it. But they don't, so, as mentioned, you're closing one hole but just opening another, and it doesn't make much sense.
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Post by scottysmalls on Jul 27, 2015 10:13:12 GMT -5
Really I think the Red Sox should look into acquiring everyone involved with developing pitching for the Mets. They've done an incredible job of it the past couple years.
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Post by ethanbein on Jul 27, 2015 10:24:54 GMT -5
I'm going to go ahead and take the other side here. Bogaerts is a fine player, but Sydergaard is probably better right now. Bogaerts is playing over his head this year, and is about as bad of a hitter as you can be with his excellent batting average. He's certainly a good player already with great upside, but until the power comes I wouldn't see him as untouchable. Thor is already pitching like one of the best in the game, and his larger present value combined with his extra years of team control make up for the extra risk that comes with being a pitcher, in my mind.
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Post by scottysmalls on Jul 27, 2015 10:32:55 GMT -5
I'm going to go ahead and take the other side here. Bogaerts is a fine player, but Sydergaard is probably better right now. Bogaerts is playing over his head this year, and is about as bad of a hitter as you can be with his excellent batting average. He's certainly a good player already with great upside, but until the power comes I wouldn't see him as untouchable. Thor is already pitching like one of the best in the game, and his larger present value combined with his extra years of team control make up for the extra risk that comes with being a pitcher, in my mind. What makes you think he's playing over his head? Just BABIP? There's also a clear path for Bogaerts to go from being a very good player to a super star, if he starts walking and hitting for the power that he has throughout his career. He's already shown the ability to improve the weaker aspects of his game dramatically (strikeouts and defense). Not saying that's necessarily going to happen, but it seems a much more likely step forward than any Syndergaard could make at this point, and they're already about equal in value. The extra years of team control are big, but I don't think they outweigh the volatility of pitchers, or the potential future value differential. |
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Post by ethanbein on Jul 27, 2015 10:43:21 GMT -5
What makes you think he's playing over his head? Just BABIP? There's also a clear path for Bogaerts to go from being a very good player to a super star, if he starts walking and hitting for the power that he has throughout his career. He's already shown the ability to improve the weaker aspects of his game dramatically (strikeouts and defense). Not saying that's necessarily going to happen, but it seems a much more likely step forward than any Syndergaard could make at this point, and they're already about equal in value. The extra years of team control are big, but I don't think they outweigh the volatility of pitchers, or the potential future value differential. BABIP is a lot of it, as that will almost certainly come down, even if he could easily be an over .300 guy. Defense is also a lot of it - even if he's much improved, I'm a bit skeptical he'll continue to be a +5 to +10 guy going forward, especially as he ages. I think the walks and power will come back and that will help, but Fangraphs has him at .277/.327/.414 rest of season, good for a 103 wRC+. Combined with average to better defense at SS that's very nice, but it's more of a good player than a great one. I certainly see the reasoning for wanting to hold onto him, especially with no replacement apparent, but I'd pull the trigger on this one. FWIW, Dave Cameron had Syndergaard about 10 spots higher than Bogaerts on his trade value list. |
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Post by WindyCityRedSox169 on Jul 27, 2015 10:47:43 GMT -5
I'm going to go ahead and take the other side here. Bogaerts is a fine player, but Sydergaard is probably better right now. Bogaerts is playing over his head this year, and is about as bad of a hitter as you can be with his excellent batting average. He's certainly a good player already with great upside, but until the power comes I wouldn't see him as untouchable. Thor is already pitching like one of the best in the game, and his larger present value combined with his extra years of team control make up for the extra risk that comes with being a pitcher, in my mind. What makes you think he's playing over his head? Just BABIP? There's also a clear path for Bogaerts to go from being a very good player to a super star, if he starts walking and hitting for the power that he has throughout his career. He's already shown the ability to improve the weaker aspects of his game dramatically (strikeouts and defense). Not saying that's necessarily going to happen, but it seems a much more likely step forward than any Syndergaard could make at this point, and they're already about equal in value. The extra years of team control are big, but I don't think they outweigh the volatility of pitchers, or the potential future value differential. I think it is presumptuous to just assume he starts walking and hitting for power that he has throughout his career. Jmei posted this in the Bogaerts extension thread but at the MLB level he hasn't shown the ability to hit for power as well as limiting strikeouts. Is it possible his adjustment over the offseason to improve his plate discipline and put the bat on the ball more often zapped his power? You can see the changes in the swing, is it easy for that to be tweaked where he doesn't lose the ability to hit for contact but also generate power? I don't know if we can answer that. |
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Post by scottysmalls on Jul 27, 2015 11:15:31 GMT -5
What makes you think he's playing over his head? Just BABIP? There's also a clear path for Bogaerts to go from being a very good player to a super star, if he starts walking and hitting for the power that he has throughout his career. He's already shown the ability to improve the weaker aspects of his game dramatically (strikeouts and defense). Not saying that's necessarily going to happen, but it seems a much more likely step forward than any Syndergaard could make at this point, and they're already about equal in value. The extra years of team control are big, but I don't think they outweigh the volatility of pitchers, or the potential future value differential. BABIP is a lot of it, as that will almost certainly come down, even if he could easily be an over .300 guy. Defense is also a lot of it - even if he's much improved, I'm a bit skeptical he'll continue to be a +5 to +10 guy going forward, especially as he ages. I think the walks and power will come back and that will help, but Fangraphs has him at .277/.327/.414 rest of season, good for a 103 wRC+. Combined with average to better defense at SS that's very nice, but it's more of a good player than a great one. I certainly see the reasoning for wanting to hold onto him, especially with no replacement apparent, but I'd pull the trigger on this one. FWIW, Dave Cameron had Syndergaard about 10 spots higher than Bogaerts on his trade value list. I can certainly see the argument, and from what I gather Cameron's was basically entirely on the years of control, as the projections he was relying on favor Bogaerts. I would just argue those two years are outweighed by Bogaerts likely being the better player moving forward with less risk attached. Not like his trade value list is near an exact science. For the poster below, yeah I said "not saying that's necessarily going to happen," because it may not, but remember that Xander is just 22, has shown an exceptional ability to adapt and improve and came up as one of the top three prospects in baseball even under heavy doubt that he'd be able to remain at short stop purely because of his bat. Now he is an asset defensively at short and I believe it is very possible he starts hitting like we all thought he would. It's all about adjustments, Xander is slapping everything the other way or up the middle because that's where he's being pitched, as pitchers figure out that they need can't do that on every pitch or he'll hit a liner into center every time he's going to start seeing more pitches out of the zone and more on the inner half. He has given me reason to believe he'll be able to adjust to that, and those pitches on the inner half are the one's he'll start pulling with authority. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Jul 27, 2015 11:35:06 GMT -5
Why should anyone on this team feel entitled enough to think they have a permanently safe roster spot? This team has done nothing but under-perform for two straight years so a major shake-up is needed anyway. Cherrington's only goal should be putting the best team out on the field, not worrying about the psyche of his remaining players post trade. Maybe it would actually light a fire under them for once. Yea I don't necessarily disagree with this but I think there is merit in having home grown super stars. Xander has been the jewel of the system and he's been a hard working kid who's improved and is playing very well especially for his age and is on an upward trajectory. Players are human and while they should understand the business side of things such as there is always a possibility of being traded why would you deal a guy like Xander for an unknown guy. Noah looks like a very good promising player. Chris Sale he is not. It's not a sure enough thing to deal a guy like Bogaerts. |
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Jul 27, 2015 11:41:38 GMT -5
Love me some Thor but I wouldn't do it. Just can't deal X for a pitcher whose arm could give way at any moment
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Post by jmei on Jul 27, 2015 12:17:37 GMT -5
I don't know that I'd agree that Bogaerts is much more of a sure thing than Syndergaard is. It's inconsistent to only consider Syndegaard's injury downside without considering Bogaerts' performance downside, which was on display as recently as last year. Remember, the core skills he's flashed this season (defense, contact) are areas where he struggled in 2014 and were never his strong suits coming up through the system. The flip side of the coin to the idea that he just needs to add patience/power to become a true superstar is the idea that if his fielding/contact skills slip (for instance, if he tries to bulk up/swing harder to try to hit for more power and fails, or even if his BABIP just regresses), he could well end up as a average/below-average regular. Yes, he's been on an upwards trajectory, but that trajectory is based on all of four months (maybe five, if you want to include last September), and I'm skeptical that having a strong makeup/work ethic means that he's much more likely than the average player to reach his ceiling.
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Post by scottysmalls on Jul 27, 2015 12:37:21 GMT -5
I don't know that I'd agree that Bogaerts is much more of a sure thing than Syndergaard is. It's inconsistent to only consider Syndegaard's injury downside without considering Bogaerts' performance downside, which was on display as recently as last year. Remember, the core skills he's flashed this season (defense, contact) are areas where he struggled in 2014 and were never his strong suits coming up through the system. The flip side of the coin to the idea that he just needs to add patience/power to become a true superstar is the idea that if his fielding/contact skills slip (for instance, if he tries to bulk up/swing harder to try to hit for more power and fails, or even if his BABIP just regresses), he could well end up as a average/below-average regular. Yes, he's been on an upwards trajectory, but that trajectory is based on all of four months (maybe five, if you want to include last September), and I'm skeptical that having a strong makeup/work ethic means that he's much more likely than the average player to reach his ceiling. I haven't been thinking about his makeup or work ethic so much as his demonstrated ability to adjust and improve. I don't have any research to back this up, but I would bet players capable of making the initial adjustments tend to have more success at making further adjustments down the road. I could be completely wrong. Syndergaard also has performance downside though, he's been better thus far in the majors than he has been since A ball, I don't see that as a lock to continue either, although it certainly could, but major league hitters adjust as well as major league pitchers do and Thor isn't even 100 innings into his big league career. |
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Post by ctfisher on Jul 27, 2015 12:43:57 GMT -5
I haven't been thinking about his makeup or work ethic so much as his demonstrated ability to adjust and improve. I don't have any research to back this up, but I would bet players capable of making the initial adjustments tend to have more success at making further adjustments down the road. I could be completely wrong. Syndergaard also has performance downside though, he's been better thus far in the majors than he has been since A ball, I don't see that as a lock to continue either, although it certainly could, but major league hitters adjust as well as major league pitchers do and Thor isn't even 100 innings into his big league career. I don't think I'd do the deal either, but Syndergaard's AAA numbers at least were probably pretty severely distorted by pitching in the PCL, and he did lead the league in strikeouts while there. I'd be much more concerned with injuries than performance on his part |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jul 27, 2015 13:09:03 GMT -5
I don't know that I'd agree that Bogaerts is much more of a sure thing than Syndergaard is. It's inconsistent to only consider Syndegaard's injury downside without considering Bogaerts' performance downside, which was on display as recently as last year. Remember, the core skills he's flashed this season (defense, contact) are areas where he struggled in 2014 and were never his strong suits coming up through the system. The flip side of the coin to the idea that he just needs to add patience/power to become a true superstar is the idea that if his fielding/contact skills slip (for instance, if he tries to bulk up/swing harder to try to hit for more power and fails, or even if his BABIP just regresses), he could well end up as a average/below-average regular. Yes, he's been on an upwards trajectory, but that trajectory is based on all of four months (maybe five, if you want to include last September), and I'm skeptical that having a strong makeup/work ethic means that he's much more likely than the average player to reach his ceiling. I think contact was one of Bogaerts strength in the minors. He has elite bat speed and outside of 2014 has always made great contact. In the past he made it with more power, in time the power will return. He is adjusting to major league pitching.
Like another poster said if you think the two players are close and one is a pitcher, you always go with position player
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Post by Guidas on Jul 27, 2015 13:20:39 GMT -5
If they had an alternative MLB-ready shortstop option, I'd consider it. But they don't, so, as mentioned, you're closing one hole but just opening another, and it doesn't make much sense. I'd go Holt or Marrero for the rest of the year and then go shopping with cash or prospects in the off-season. |
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Post by jmei on Jul 27, 2015 13:23:01 GMT -5
I think contact was one of Bogaerts strength in the minors. He has elite bat speed and outside of 2014 has always made great contact. In the past he made it with more power, in time the power will return. He is adjusting to major league pitching. He always had strikeout rates in the minors straddling 20% or so, which is not terrible, but isn't great, either. |
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