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Post by redsoxfan2 on Aug 3, 2015 21:18:01 GMT -5
I stand by original statement that "losing begets losing". Theo made it a main priority to get the minor league teams to start winning to change the culture of losing all the time that made its way throughout the system. some here that feel that is not the case are DEAD WRONG. For many years the Sox had losing teams in the minors and we all know that the major league teams were a joke back then. Theo put a stop to that pretty quick and all of a sudden we had a winning attitude that went up to the Sox. Now we are back to whatever. It doesn't matter if the minors are a losing bunch we only concentrate on certain players. This is supposed to be the number 1 minor league system, but you couldn't tell it by Pawtucket and Portland that are REALLY losing teams. Must be a real thrill to attend those games. Greenville is supposed to be stacked, but they are only a couple of games above 500. I notice in yesterdays box scores that 3 teams had an unbelevable amount of runners left in scoring position. Boston must have taught their minor leaguers very well. they are learning the new Red Sox way.I am the only one commenting here now because I guess most here want this thread to die. Bring back Theo's winning attitude. You do know that winning is not the point of minor league clubs, correct? They are supposed to be developing. The Red Sox were purposefully telling Owens to throw certain pitches because he needed to develop a third pitch. I'll take an 18 year old loser in Devers over some 24 year old kid who can win some games in A ball.
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Post by larrycook on Aug 3, 2015 21:33:29 GMT -5
Last season Portland won a ton of games. Maybe even set a team record. And it seems to me a couple of those Portland players are either playing for us now or have been called up briefly this year.
Pirching, defense and timely hitting create a culture of winning.
Our pitching has been terrible, our defense spotty but our hitting is finally starting to click,
This team needs two front line pitchers, two relievers and figure out how to get rameriez out of left field.
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Post by benogliviesbrother on Aug 3, 2015 21:50:14 GMT -5
... Theo made it a main priority to get the minor league teams to start winning ... I guess Theo stopped caring — the last three years of his regime (2009 - 11) the minor league teams collectively lost more games than they won.
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Post by benogliviesbrother on Aug 3, 2015 21:55:40 GMT -5
What is this timely hitting you speak of? Is it a learned skill (i.e., can we teach a hitter to get his hits when it's timely, or does he do well to try his arse off every PA and the hits just come when they come)?
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Post by iakovos11 on Aug 4, 2015 7:03:48 GMT -5
I stand by original statement that "losing begets losing". Theo made it a main priority to get the minor league teams to start winning to change the culture of losing all the time that made its way throughout the system. some here that feel that is not the case are DEAD WRONG. For many years the Sox had losing teams in the minors and we all know that the major league teams were a joke back then. Theo put a stop to that pretty quick and all of a sudden we had a winning attitude that went up to the Sox. Now we are back to whatever. It doesn't matter if the minors are a losing bunch we only concentrate on certain players. This is supposed to be the number 1 minor league system, but you couldn't tell it by Pawtucket and Portland that are REALLY losing teams. Must be a real thrill to attend those games. Greenville is supposed to be stacked, but they are only a couple of games above 500. I notice in yesterdays box scores that 3 teams had an unbelevable amount of runners left in scoring position. Boston must have taught their minor leaguers very well. they are learning the new Red Sox way.I am the only one commenting here now because I guess most here want this thread to die. Bring back Theo's winning attitude. You're the only one dredging this up because the argument is COMPLETE AND UTTER GARBAGE. Neither you nor anyone else has provided any evidence whatsoever to support this claim. In fact, several people have pointed out facts that contradict your comments. If you'd rather see a team of 24 year old org guys win in Greenville and Portland than a team with a lot of age advanced prospects that just might struggle sometimes (and yes, lose) against teams older players, then you might be alone.
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Post by jimed14 on Aug 4, 2015 7:27:58 GMT -5
I stand by original statement that "losing begets losing". Theo made it a main priority to get the minor league teams to start winning to change the culture of losing all the time that made its way throughout the system. some here that feel that is not the case are DEAD WRONG. For many years the Sox had losing teams in the minors and we all know that the major league teams were a joke back then. Theo put a stop to that pretty quick and all of a sudden we had a winning attitude that went up to the Sox. Now we are back to whatever. It doesn't matter if the minors are a losing bunch we only concentrate on certain players. This is supposed to be the number 1 minor league system, but you couldn't tell it by Pawtucket and Portland that are REALLY losing teams. Must be a real thrill to attend those games. Greenville is supposed to be stacked, but they are only a couple of games above 500. I notice in yesterdays box scores that 3 teams had an unbelevable amount of runners left in scoring position. Boston must have taught their minor leaguers very well. they are learning the new Red Sox way.I am the only one commenting here now because I guess most here want this thread to die. Bring back Theo's winning attitude. Which homegrown players aren't trying to win? Because this can only have to do with homegrown players, of which there are about 10 at most at any given time, with many of those separated by about over 10 years in age. And several of those ten won a damn World Series and most of the other ones played in the championship game in AAA last year. This thread is dumber than arguing over pitcher wins or game winning RBIs.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Aug 4, 2015 10:46:45 GMT -5
This team needs more winning.
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Post by congusgambler33 on Aug 4, 2015 10:52:43 GMT -5
I got pretty much the onslaught that i expected, but I will say some of you have enlightened me more in the responses given. I also know that the Sox place their players aggressively higher to challenge them to do better against more advanced opponents. this can work with some, but I am not so sure all. some players need more time to develop and maybe pushing them too early could be detrimental to their development. If you have a differing opinion please enlighten me some more.
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Post by jimed14 on Aug 4, 2015 10:57:14 GMT -5
Winning isn't an individual skill. That's about all there is to say about it. Major league baseball players need to be good at baseball. You have enough of them you win. If you don't, you lose.
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Post by congusgambler33 on Aug 4, 2015 11:07:00 GMT -5
I stand by original statement that "losing begets losing". Theo made it a main priority to get the minor league teams to start winning to change the culture of losing all the time that made its way throughout the system. some here that feel that is not the case are DEAD WRONG. For many years the Sox had losing teams in the minors and we all know that the major league teams were a joke back then. Theo put a stop to that pretty quick and all of a sudden we had a winning attitude that went up to the Sox. Now we are back to whatever. It doesn't matter if the minors are a losing bunch we only concentrate on certain players. This is supposed to be the number 1 minor league system, but you couldn't tell it by Pawtucket and Portland that are REALLY losing teams. Must be a real thrill to attend those games. Greenville is supposed to be stacked, but they are only a couple of games above 500. I notice in yesterdays box scores that 3 teams had an unbelevable amount of runners left in scoring position. Boston must have taught their minor leaguers very well. they are learning the new Red Sox way.I am the only one commenting here now because I guess most here want this thread to die. Bring back Theo's winning attitude. You're the only one dredging this up because the argument is COMPLETE AND UTTER GARBAGE. Neither you nor anyone else has provided any evidence whatsoever to support this claim. In fact, several people have pointed out facts that contradict your comments. If you'd rather see a team of 24 year old org guys win in Greenville and Portland than a team with a lot of age advanced prospects that just might struggle sometimes (and yes, lose) against teams older players, then you might be alone. Your Aristotle quote is very apropos to this discussion as I have been roundly criticized in my above statement. If anything it is a learning tool to understand more of how the minor league system works. I am just frustrated with the parent club.
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Post by iakovos11 on Aug 4, 2015 11:49:25 GMT -5
Just to be clear, gambler, I am not opposed to your idea in general. I disagree with the premise. But if you want to make the argument, tell me why it's true besides making a correlation based on last night's minor league LOB numbers and how the big league isn't that well with RISP. Even a one year Red Sox organization correlation between the big league club and the minor league wins isn't really evidence of anything. If you think this is true (losing in the minors is causing losing in Boston), though, you have do more than state you think it's true. Show me the evidence. Most people disagree with this premise for a reason.
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Post by James Dunne on Aug 4, 2015 11:51:50 GMT -5
Do you think the Eagles take Hanley Ramirez in a deal for Tebow?
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Post by jimed14 on Aug 4, 2015 12:11:40 GMT -5
Do you think the Eagles take Hanley Ramirez in a deal for Tebow? For as bad as Tebow's deliery is, I bet he'd get the ball in to the infield way faster without double clutching.
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Post by sarasoxer on Aug 4, 2015 13:04:44 GMT -5
Within the past few years I read a story where the Yankee organization believed in the "culture of winning" and did put milb veterans or major league guys past usefulness at the ML level into the system to inculcate that "winning attitude".....Don't ask me to reproduce it but I'll bet there are similar articles on the web if one were to look.
....and how many times have we heard say in other sports "He comes from a winning program"...as if this is a strong point in the player's favor.....so maybe this is a tomato...tomahhto kind of thing.
Now my question has been: with our minor league teams doing so poorly on a collective record basis, does this reflect on the quality of our farm beyond the top prospects?.....We are not winning games because the other teams are playing better baseball against us. That is undeniable....res ipsa loquitur.
Is that because, as has been set out here with the force of gospel,
"Well the Sox push their prospects more than other teams and therefore they are always playing against a collectively older, more experienced, not more talented group?"....OR
"The Sox don't sign older, experienced organizational fodder like other teams because the Sox value player development and not wins"
Is there any evidence to support this....such as average age of the players across systems at varying levels?
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Post by James Dunne on Aug 4, 2015 13:36:09 GMT -5
Now my question has been: with our minor league teams doing so poorly on a collective record basis, does this reflect on the quality of our farm beyond the top prospects?.... Yes, I think the lack of organizational depth the team got from the 2012 draft has a little bit to do with the soft records, particularly in Portland. The only player taken after the 12th round who is still active in the organization (so not counting Thompson an Magee) is Kevin Heller. That draft produced too few of the type of players who can fill roles when there is a question of depth. That's more of a talent evaluation issue, though, than one of a team culture.
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Post by jimed14 on Aug 4, 2015 13:46:13 GMT -5
Within the past few years I read a story where the Yankee organization believed in the "culture of winning" and did put milb veterans or major league guys past usefulness at the ML level into the system to inculcate that "winning attitude".....Don't ask me to reproduce it but I'll bet there are similar articles on the web if one were to look. How long has it been since they had a significant # of homegrown players? The problem with signing all kinds of milb veterans is they play at the prospects' expense? I mean if we traded away all our prospects like the Yankees have, it would be a lot easier to do this. But I thought the main point of a farm system is to produce major league players, not to instill the culture of winning for a majority of players that never play for the major league team. Who says the Yankees are doing it right anyway? They're in first because of a bunch of completely unpredictable outcomes like a career year for Teixera and unbelievable season for a 40 year ARod after a year off. And Arod certainly doesn't have the culture of winning instilled in him.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Aug 4, 2015 13:55:47 GMT -5
I asked Darren Fenster about this in the interview that ran in the last podcast episode ( LINK), in how you balance things, and he shot it right down. The minors are for player dev. Now, they're all competitive and are going out there and trying to win, but it's not a goal that's going to come at the expense of player development. I am curious, for those who are worried about this "culture of losing" - what would you have them do instead? It seems that there's a lot of hand-wringing about the losing records some of the teams have, but I'm not sure I've seen the actual thing that the Sox are doing wrong here in the opinions of those who take that side of things. It's entirely possible I missed this after being AFK all weekend, so please correct me if so. And again, I'd point out that if this was some kind of organizational failing, wouldn't it be reproduced over a period of several seasons? Last year, just two affiliates had losing records, one being Lowell at one game under .500, and the minor league affiliates went a combined 497-347 (.589) with five affiliates making the playoffs (PAW, POR, SAL, GCL, DSL). Is the point that they're doing something different this year that they haven't done in the past? I certainly don't have time for the legwork on this, but my guess is that over a period of years, most organizations' minor league records would tend to be around .500, with perhaps organizations that took a more aggressive placement philosophy being a little below that and the more conservative teams being a little above that, but neither by much.
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Post by jimed14 on Aug 4, 2015 13:59:05 GMT -5
I asked Darren Fenster about this in the interview that ran in the last podcast episode ( LINK), in how you balance things, and he shot it right down. The minors are for player dev. Now, they're all competitive and are going out there and trying to win, but it's not a goal that's going to come at the expense of player development. I am curious, for those who are worried about this "culture of losing" - what would you have them do instead? It seems that there's a lot of hand-wringing about the losing records some of the teams have, but I'm not sure I've seen the actual thing that the Sox are doing wrong here in the opinions of those who take that side of things. And again, I'd point out that if this was some kind of organizational failing, wouldn't it be reproduced over a period of several seasons? Last year, just two affiliates had losing records, one being Lowell at one game under .500, and the minor league affiliates went a combined 497-347 (.589) with five affiliates making the playoffs (PAW, POR, SAL, GCL, DSL). I certainly don't have time for the legwork on this, but my guess is that over a period of years, most organizations' minor league records would tend to be around .500, with perhaps organizations that took a more aggressive placement philosophy being a little below that and the more conservative teams being a little above that, but neither by much. It's basically a childish argument that amounts to "we need to win more" at every level. It's equal to arguing to bring in pitchers with the best winning percentage because they have the culture of winning instilled in them.
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Post by sarasoxer on Aug 4, 2015 14:22:46 GMT -5
I asked Darren Fenster about this in the interview that ran in the last podcast episode ( LINK), in how you balance things, and he shot it right down. The minors are for player dev. Now, they're all competitive and are going out there and trying to win, but it's not a goal that's going to come at the expense of player development. I am curious, for those who are worried about this "culture of losing" - what would you have them do instead? It seems that there's a lot of hand-wringing about the losing records some of the teams have, but I'm not sure I've seen the actual thing that the Sox are doing wrong here in the opinions of those who take that side of things. And again, I'd point out that if this was some kind of organizational failing, wouldn't it be reproduced over a period of several seasons? Last year, just two affiliates had losing records, one being Lowell at one game under .500, and the minor league affiliates went a combined 497-347 (.589) with five affiliates making the playoffs (PAW, POR, SAL, GCL, DSL). I certainly don't have time for the legwork on this, but my guess is that over a period of years, most organizations' minor league records would tend to be around .500, with perhaps organizations that took a more aggressive placement philosophy being a little below that and the more conservative teams being a little above that, but neither by much. It's basically a childish argument that amounts to "we need to win more" at every level. It's equal to arguing to bring in pitchers with the best winning percentage because they have the culture of winning instilled in them. Nope Jimed, you are incorrect. The argument isn't any more childish than what you are putting forth. Clearly from reading here other organizations take a different tack. I was not advocating a "culture of winning" nor its cousin "culture of losing" that Chris alludes to. My question was "Why"? are the Sox minor league teams losing.....1. is it inferior talent which would first come to mind, or 2. pushing our guys quicker than most organizations, 3. trying more than other teams to develop our guys as in having Ownes throw more FB to get better command (times 50 guys) or 4. that other teams stock with older, more experienced players to "win" or 5. just a cosmic statistical aberration that will balance itself at the next blue moon or Other. James Dunne gave an answer.
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Post by iakovos11 on Aug 4, 2015 14:37:43 GMT -5
Is there really any evidence that the Red Sox minor league teams are losing? I mean, sure this year they are. But one year doesn't make a trend. In 2014, as Chris pointed out, they performed quite well overall. in 2013, too, all but 2 affiliates had winning records. In 2012, only 2 of 6 affiliates had winning records, although Salem was 68-69. That's as far as I have gotten so far.
You have to show me there's trend of losing.
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Post by jrffam05 on Aug 4, 2015 14:58:13 GMT -5
I don't agree with the original post of this thread, but I do find it at least somewhat curious that Pawtucket and Greenville are losing teams with the amount of talent they have.
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Post by sarasoxer on Aug 4, 2015 16:38:54 GMT -5
Is there really any evidence that the Red Sox minor league teams are losing? I mean, sure this year they are. But one year doesn't make a trend. In 2014, as Chris pointed out, they performed quite well overall. in 2013, too, all but 2 affiliates had winning records. In 2012, only 2 of 6 affiliates had winning records, although Salem was 68-69. That's as far as I have gotten so far. You have to show me there's trend of losing. Well let me try again. This year the AAA team is 21 games below .500, the AA team is 29 games below .500, Salem, Greenville & Lowell are hovering around .500. On the surface with our farm system billed as the best or second best, this record would appear to be somewhat disparate absent a hitherto unknown and influencial astrological anomaly. The question begged for me was why that apparent discrepancy? James Dunn provided one answer above. Now I never suggested that the Sox should engage a "culture of winning" (particularly at the expense of prospect development). Maybe other teams 'stack to win' but that doesn't make them stupid or childish either. Different strokes..... Nor do I have to show you any trend. File this year's records under "It is what it is". Again the simple question was "Why"?
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Post by jimed14 on Aug 4, 2015 16:41:55 GMT -5
The simple answer is that they don't care. Simple example - Owens gave up his changeup for half the season to work on other pitches to get him ready for the majors. So in his case, do you care more about developing him or getting him more pitching wins?
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Post by sarasoxer on Aug 4, 2015 16:57:04 GMT -5
The simple answer is that they don't care. Simple example - Owens gave up his changeup for half the season to work on other pitches to get him ready for the majors. So in his case, do you care more about developing him or getting him more pitching wins? jimed14 I don't know how I could be more clear. Of course the players and teams want to win at every level. Still it won't come at the expense of player development --- The Prime Directive. We all know that. Look last year Portland won what 88 games?....an all-time record. Did that team/management "care" more than this year's team? I suggest that they each cared the same and the same Prime Directive operated. Given that commonality I submit that there is more in play here...i.e. that the talent might not be as strong at the two higher levels as we might have believed 4 months ago.
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Post by thebrassbuckle1993 on Aug 4, 2015 17:16:57 GMT -5
A team like Greenville this year, I would like to see them win more games. However, not winning more games doesn't negatively impact my view of our top guys.
I think an argument can be made that minor league playoff baseball is beneficial to a players development.
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