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Poll: How Do You Solve a Problem Like Hanley?
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Post by Legion of Bloom on Aug 23, 2015 10:03:16 GMT -5
I'd trade Hanley and some cash to the O's for their competitive balance draft pick. That's how bad I want him off the team. Him being gone means that Castillo and JBJ continue to play everyday for us which is something that should be happening, yet Hanley's presence is not allowing it.
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Post by jdb on Aug 23, 2015 13:12:48 GMT -5
There are four viable options for next year. C) Trade him for a better 1B, by a combination of eating salary and adding prospects. You would think about a swap for two absolute studs with insane contacts, Miguel Cabrera and Joey Votto (I mean "think about" literally; I'm too busy to even consider whether that could be a good idea or is doomed to be a terrible one). There are many other viable candidates. I've thought about a Votto trade. The Reds are rebuilding and he isn't going to be on their next competitive team. A Hanley for Votto trade takes about 130ish million off their books and maybe more if Rameriez rebounds and they can trade him. There's only a few teams who could take on Votto and while paying him $25 million as a 39 year old isn't great I think he will hit and get on base the majority of the contract. According to fangraphs he has been worth over $40 million a year the last few years minus the one he missed time.
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Post by ray88h66 on Aug 23, 2015 13:17:12 GMT -5
I'm on the trade Hanley wagon.
Just wanted to tip the cap to ericvan on some top notch evaluation in this thread.
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Post by jodyreidnichols on Aug 23, 2015 14:57:46 GMT -5
I'm happy to be the last member of the "keep him in LF" club. Unless he's traded I fear that that is the most likely outcome. I don't know what to do with him otherwise. It feels like something has to give, be that LF, 3B or 2B. A small part of me would like to wait a year and see what would happen with all these players performing closer to their career levels as an expectation, but we have a new president of baseball operations and GM, who surely will want to make their imprint on the team sooner than later as is the norm for new management changes are a coming and surely none of us know enough about the new management that is and is to be to make any kind of accurate predictions at this point only guesses. Edi: Added "us" for clarity
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Post by jodyreidnichols on Aug 23, 2015 15:19:00 GMT -5
Alex Speier @alexspeier 17m17 minutes ago Cherington on Hanley's defense: 'We didn't know what he would be defensively... we made a bet based on the history of what players ... Alex Speier @alexspeier 17m17 minutes ago ...look like going from middle infield to outfield... It hasn't gone well.' Nice application of "analytics" right there. As if what one player does has ever had any bearing on what another player does. Hey Ben, why not toss in a sweeping generalization as to the strike zone judgment of all Dominican players while you're at it? Is this 20/20 hindsite or are you on record declaring this would not work and with reasons to support your point?
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Aug 25, 2015 23:26:38 GMT -5
Edit: didn't see the Hanley to 1B thread ...
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Post by blizzards39 on Nov 16, 2015 0:47:53 GMT -5
Didn't want to start a new thread for this but it's pretty apparent that most people on this forum A- do not want to get rid of prospects B- would like to get rid of Hanley and/or Panda The question is what , if any prospects/players would you package/sacrifice in order to have somebody take one of these guys off your hands??
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Nov 16, 2015 0:59:47 GMT -5
I'm not one that believes that anybody can play first base and I see no reason to believe that Hanley, a historically bad SS and LF will be able to make the transition.
We might have to dust off Dick Stewart's nickname, Dr. Strangeglove.
The only ray of hope here is that his bat returns enough to compensate.
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Post by pokeyreesespieces on Nov 16, 2015 1:14:55 GMT -5
I'm not one that believes that anybody can play first base and I see no reason to believe that Hanley, a historically bad SS and LF will be able to make the transition. We might have to dust off Dick Stewart's nickname, Dr. Strangeglove. The only ray of hope here is that his bat returns enough to compensate. We should throw out the notion of him being a bad left fielder. Never should have went there. It has skewed our minds. Short has passed him by a LONG time ago. Okay, so the last we've seen Hanley at an acceptable position was 3rd base for the Dodgers in 2014. What happens to bad 3rd baseman? They go to first, and generally extend their careers a bit because the position is easier. With that in mind, look at the defensive rating of Hanley at 3rd in 2014. He's given a rating of -6.1. Bad. Not excruciating, but below average. So you move him to first, where maybe his skills will translate from 3rd, and he'll improve a bit. Maybe just slightly under average. -3 or -4 maybe? Want to know who fangraphs also rated a -4 at 1st? Mike Napoli in 2014 who no one complained about. Nap hit about .250/.370/.420 that year with 17 bombs. And with that below average defense, he was worth 2.4 WAR p.s. in 2013 Hanley had a slightly above average defensive rating at 3rd.
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Post by blizzards39 on Nov 16, 2015 1:39:04 GMT -5
I'm not one that believes that anybody can play first base and I see no reason to believe that Hanley, a historically bad SS and LF will be able to make the transition. We might have to dust off Dick Stewart's nickname, Dr. Strangeglove. The only ray of hope here is that his bat returns enough to compensate. We should throw out the notion of him being a bad left fielder. Never should have went there. It has skewed our minds. Short has passed him by a LONG time ago. Okay, so the last we've seen Hanley at an acceptable position was 3rd base for the Dodgers in 2014. What happens to bad 3rd baseman? They go to first, and generally extend their careers a bit because the position is easier. With that in mind, look at the defensive rating of Hanley at 3rd in 2014. He's given a rating of -6.1. Bad. Not excruciating, but below average. So you move him to first, where maybe his skills will translate from 3rd, and he'll improve a bit. Maybe just slightly under average. -3 or -4 maybe? Want to know who fangraphs also rated a -4 at 1st? Mike Napoli in 2014 who no one complained about. Nap hit about .250/.370/.420 that year with 17 bombs. And with that below average defense, he was worth 2.4 WAR p.s. in 2013 Hanley had a slightly above average defensive rating at 3rd. I love Hanley and I was in factor of signing him but I'm scared. His whole non-schelant way of playing scared me at 1B. Not sure he can stay focused to be in on all those plays
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Post by pokeyreesespieces on Nov 16, 2015 2:34:52 GMT -5
We should throw out the notion of him being a bad left fielder. Never should have went there. It has skewed our minds. Short has passed him by a LONG time ago. Okay, so the last we've seen Hanley at an acceptable position was 3rd base for the Dodgers in 2014. What happens to bad 3rd baseman? They go to first, and generally extend their careers a bit because the position is easier. With that in mind, look at the defensive rating of Hanley at 3rd in 2014. He's given a rating of -6.1. Bad. Not excruciating, but below average. So you move him to first, where maybe his skills will translate from 3rd, and he'll improve a bit. Maybe just slightly under average. -3 or -4 maybe? Want to know who fangraphs also rated a -4 at 1st? Mike Napoli in 2014 who no one complained about. Nap hit about .250/.370/.420 that year with 17 bombs. And with that below average defense, he was worth 2.4 WAR p.s. in 2013 Hanley had a slightly above average defensive rating at 3rd. I love Hanley and I was in factor of signing him but I'm scared. His whole non-schelant way of playing scared me at 1B. Not sure he can stay focused to be in on all those plays It's a real concern. He dogged it out there a lot. He was also really out of wack, and had a shoulder injury that was probably worse than we thought. (Sox medical staff is hit or miss. We put Varvaro on waivers last year and let the Cubs claim him only to then find he had a torn flexor tendon later). When we talk about effort, Hanley put it in before the season. He put on HUGE amounts of muscle. That takes work and determination. He's a career infielder normally tracking ground balls suddenly trying to judge fly balls in the weirdest left field in baseball. (We saw Carl freakin' Crawford deteriorate defensively in our left field). It was a pretty big transition. He's never going to be a 110% effort guy. But he looks already like he's taking the thinning down order seriously this offseason, and moving him back to the infield will be something that is much more comfortable for him. First requires a much similar skillset to what he had at third. I'm not super hopeful about it, but I also wouldn't be shocked to see him play a serviceable first base for 120ish games next year. Then again, I don't think we have much of a choice unless we eat a massive chunk of that contract.
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gerry
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Post by gerry on Nov 16, 2015 2:37:20 GMT -5
I'm not one that believes that anybody can play first base and I see no reason to believe that Hanley, a historically bad SS and LF will be able to make the transition. We might have to dust off Dick Stewart's nickname, Dr. Strangeglove. The only ray of hope here is that his bat returns enough to compensate. We should throw out the notion of him being a bad left fielder. Never should have went there. It has skewed our minds. Short has passed him by a LONG time ago. Okay, so the last we've seen Hanley at an acceptable position was 3rd base for the Dodgers in 2014. What happens to bad 3rd baseman? They go to first, and generally extend their careers a bit because the position is easier. With that in mind, look at the defensive rating of Hanley at 3rd in 2014. He's given a rating of -6.1. Bad. Not excruciating, but below average. So you move him to first, where maybe his skills will translate from 3rd, and he'll improve a bit. Maybe just slightly under average. -3 or -4 maybe? Want to know who fangraphs also rated a -4 at 1st? Mike Napoli in 2014 who no one complained about. Nap hit about .250/.370/.420 that year with 17 bombs. And with that below average defense, he was worth 2.4 WAR p.s. in 2013 Hanley had a slightly above ave rage defensive rating at 3rd. The other name given Dick Stuart by the always supportive Boston media? Stonefingers. But he would have been worse than Hanley at SS and 3B, so Hanley probably won't be aetting the bar. In fact, he could be average at most things, like catching LD, fielding GB, making putouts, even tough ones, on throws from Pedey, XB and Panda, and perhaps only mess up the occasional complicated maneuver. IMO alot of that will be determined by the agility and flexibility restored this offaeason with the trainer and in the DR with Papi. That pic he posted has me encouraged about him at 1B, and moreso knowing Travis Shaw is around in late inninga and vs RHP.
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Post by mredsox89 on Nov 16, 2015 2:46:22 GMT -5
If the effort/improvement is there, the results defensively are at worst mediocre, and he hits like he should, he's not really a problem. It won't be ideal, but it's also more likely than not that Ortiz is done after 2017, and the final two years on Hanley's deal can be as the main DH.
If he hits, he'll at least be serviceable as worst. I think he can get to a marginally below average defensive 1B, which would still leave plenty of upside
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Post by pokeyreesespieces on Nov 16, 2015 2:48:09 GMT -5
We should throw out the notion of him being a bad left fielder. Never should have went there. It has skewed our minds. Short has passed him by a LONG time ago. Okay, so the last we've seen Hanley at an acceptable position was 3rd base for the Dodgers in 2014. What happens to bad 3rd baseman? They go to first, and generally extend their careers a bit because the position is easier. With that in mind, look at the defensive rating of Hanley at 3rd in 2014. He's given a rating of -6.1. Bad. Not excruciating, but below average. So you move him to first, where maybe his skills will translate from 3rd, and he'll improve a bit. Maybe just slightly under average. -3 or -4 maybe? Want to know who fangraphs also rated a -4 at 1st? Mike Napoli in 2014 who no one complained about. Nap hit about .250/.370/.420 that year with 17 bombs. And with that below average defense, he was worth 2.4 WAR p.s. in 2013 Hanley had a slightly above ave rage defensive rating at 3rd. The other name given Dick Stuart by the always supportive Boston media? Stonefingers. But he would have been worse than Hanley at SS and 3B, so Hanley probably won't be aetting the bar. In fact, he could be average at most things, like catching LD, fielding GB, making putouts, even tough ones, on throws from Pedey, XB and Panda, and perhaps only mess up the occasional complicated maneuver. IMO alot of that will be determined by the agility and flexibility restored this offaeason with the trainer and in the DR with Papi. That pic he posted has me encouraged about him at 1B, and moreso knowing Travis Shaw is around in late inninga and vs RHP. Yeah I mean we can see how he looks in spring and april and may, cause if he's healthy, he'll hit. If he's a mess at 1st and shows no improvement, and guys are botching throws cause they're worried they have to be perfect, then is the time to start thinking about eating that contract. Plus who knows, maybe Vmart will blow out his knee a month in, or Cruz suffers a grade 3 hamstring injury. Boom, suddenly, Hanley is an asset.
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Post by sox fan in nc on Nov 16, 2015 9:35:14 GMT -5
If the effort/improvement is there, the results defensively are at worst mediocre, and he hits like he should, he's not really a problem. It won't be ideal, but it's also more likely than not that Ortiz is done after 2017, and the final two years on Hanley's deal can be as the main DH. If he hits, he'll at least be serviceable as worst. I think he can get to a marginally below average defensive 1B, which would still leave plenty of upside In your scenario, we would only have one year of Hanley @ dh (if Ortiz goes 2 more years). I personally think Ortiz will be done after this year. I don't see him going until he is nothing as he wants his legacy to be a winner going out with a decent year as Torii Hunter did this year.
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Post by jiant2520 on Nov 16, 2015 9:47:16 GMT -5
There are four viable options for next year. C) Trade him for a better 1B, by a combination of eating salary and adding prospects. You would think about a swap for two absolute studs with insane contacts, Miguel Cabrera and Joey Votto (I mean "think about" literally; I'm too busy to even consider whether that could be a good idea or is doomed to be a terrible one). There are many other viable candidates. I've thought about a Votto trade. The Reds are rebuilding and he isn't going to be on their next competitive team. A Hanley for Votto trade takes about 130ish million off their books and maybe more if Rameriez rebounds and they can trade him. There's only a few teams who could take on Votto and while paying him $25 million as a 39 year old isn't great I think he will hit and get on base the majority of the contract. According to fangraphs he has been worth over $40 million a year the last few years minus the one he missed time. This would be great by me.
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Post by sox fan in nc on Nov 16, 2015 10:42:21 GMT -5
I've thought about a Votto trade. The Reds are rebuilding and he isn't going to be on their next competitive team. A Hanley for Votto trade takes about 130ish million off their books and maybe more if Rameriez rebounds and they can trade him. There's only a few teams who could take on Votto and while paying him $25 million as a 39 year old isn't great I think he will hit and get on base the majority of the contract. According to fangraphs he has been worth over $40 million a year the last few years minus the one he missed time. This would be great by me. I know they are different, but the Votto/Texeira contracts are/were I think, similar.....If Tex wouldn't have a few freak injuries, I think he would have earned his contract....He is in his late 30's & had a pretty good year before breaking his leg on a foul tip. That said, I don't think Cincy makes the deal unless it's for something they can use (as we do).
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Post by mandelbro on Nov 16, 2015 11:33:57 GMT -5
I still believe that Hanley Ramirez is part of the solution, for several reasons. 1. Until he got hurt last year he was raking. 2. Our best hitter is 39 years old right now, due for a decline, and we have no in-house replacements other than Ramirez. 3. No one wants him, unless we hemorrhage money or assets to facilitate it. 4. He is a career infielder.
I really hate this whole "wish away Ramirez" thing. We inked a deal with Hanley Ramirez to be an impactful player. Now we need him to step up to the plate, literally and metaphorically, and do that. We aren't going to be the team we can be without all hands on deck and that includes Hanley.
The Sox are a team with several holes looming on the horizon. Ortiz is going to be gone soon. And that's a colossal hole to fill. Pedroia is getting older. Clay, who is our best pitcher in the present, is on the other side of 30 with FA looming. Oh and our relief ace (pre-Kimbrel trade) is on the verge of croaking. Hanley and Pablo were signed to bridge this gap and I believe Hanley can deliver on that promise. Selling him for 5 cents on the dollar at the nadir of his pro career, so we can turtle and wait for the kids to arrive, is an unacceptable option IMO.
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Post by xanderdu on Nov 16, 2015 12:51:55 GMT -5
I still believe that Hanley Ramirez is part of the solution, for several reasons. 1. Until he got hurt last year he was raking. 2. Our best hitter is 39 years old right now, due for a decline, and we have no in-house replacements other than Ramirez. 3. No one wants him, unless we hemorrhage money or assets to facilitate it. 4. He is a career infielder. I really hate this whole "wish away Ramirez" thing. We inked a deal with Hanley Ramirez to be an impactful player. Now we need him to step up to the plate, literally and metaphorically, and do that. We aren't going to be the team we can be without all hands on deck and that includes Hanley. The Sox are a team with several holes looming on the horizon. Ortiz is going to be gone soon. And that's a colossal hole to fill. Pedroia is getting older. Clay, who is our best pitcher in the present, is on the other side of 30 with FA looming. Oh and our relief ace (pre-Kimbrel trade) is on the verge of croaking. Hanley and Pablo were signed to bridge this gap and I believe Hanley can deliver on that promise. Selling him for 5 cents on the dollar at the nadir of his pro career, so we can turtle and wait for the kids to arrive, is an unacceptable option IMO. I too have hope for Hanley in Boston. The many injuries, and related fallout, color our opinions; in some instances those opinions are accurate, while others are flawed against the truth. He's not our typical guy. He's more Manny than Trot, more Drew than Dewey. Unlike Manny who was so good we had no choice but to look away when his behavior transgressed, Hanley has not earned that place. I believe Hanley came in here last year believing he was "all that" for a team that had finished last the year before! He got a harsh reality check when the fortunes of the team changed so rapidly in the 2nd half without him. No longer would he be "the guy," on this team, and worse, his new boss saw him as a problem. He is now a square peg on a board with only round holes. They will allow him to stay long term, only if he becomes a round peg. It's up to him to decide if the one prize of his career that has so far eluded him, a championship, is worth jumping on the lathe to whittle off the corners. Based on the recent workout pic, it looks as though he has spent some time on the lathe. I believe him a proud man who's been humbled somewhat. Egos like his get bruised, not broken. I expect the competitor in him, combined with some gentle mental guidance from Papi will drive him to rebound in 2016. Full disclosure; I was a supporter of the move to LF. I was stunned when he failed so miserably. I've watched, and played ball for 50 years, and never have I seen a gifted SS fail so poorly in a move to another position. So why am I seeing better results for a move to 1B? I was blessed with 20 10, and 20 15 eyesight, which gave me great advantage in baseball/softball. In the past 5 years cataracts has taken that eyesight away, and I now wear glasses that correct to 20 30 and 20 40, while gearing up for lens replacement surgery. The reason I divulged this information is the changing eyesight has given me some perspective I never had previously. Not everyone saw the world as clearly as I did for my first 50 years? Perhaps Hanley is a guy who has stronger depth perception and vision to a shorter distance than others? Perhaps he has a real problem doing what JBJ does so effortlessly; that being to be on a path to the ball in the shortest time possible. I don't know the answers to these questions. But what I do know is Hanley was able to play in the IF at a much higher level than he was in the OF. Ergo, a transition to 1B should be easier than the OF transition. If so, his future here is 100% aligned with his decision to be part of the team, and that means a change of attitude. If he does change, he could provide contract value over these last 3 years. If not, but he recovers his game at 1B, he'll be wearing another uniform. If he never recovers his game, "oh what a waste!" I do however see him as an offensive threat next year.
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Post by sox fan in nc on Nov 16, 2015 14:09:48 GMT -5
I still believe that Hanley Ramirez is part of the solution, for several reasons. 1. Until he got hurt last year he was raking. 2. Our best hitter is 39 years old right now, due for a decline, and we have no in-house replacements other than Ramirez. 3. No one wants him, unless we hemorrhage money or assets to facilitate it. 4. He is a career infielder. I really hate this whole "wish away Ramirez" thing. We inked a deal with Hanley Ramirez to be an impactful player. Now we need him to step up to the plate, literally and metaphorically, and do that. We aren't going to be the team we can be without all hands on deck and that includes Hanley. The Sox are a team with several holes looming on the horizon. Ortiz is going to be gone soon. And that's a colossal hole to fill. Pedroia is getting older. Clay, who is our best pitcher in the present, is on the other side of 30 with FA looming. Oh and our relief ace (pre-Kimbrel trade) is on the verge of croaking. Hanley and Pablo were signed to bridge this gap and I believe Hanley can deliver on that promise. Selling him for 5 cents on the dollar at the nadir of his pro career, so we can turtle and wait for the kids to arrive, is an unacceptable option IMO. I too have hope for Hanley in Boston. The many injuries, and related fallout, color our opinions; in some instances those opinions are accurate, while others are flawed against the truth. He's not our typical guy. He's more Manny than Trot, more Drew than Dewey. Unlike Manny who was so good we had no choice but to look away when his behavior transgressed, Hanley has not earned that place. I believe Hanley came in here last year believing he was "all that" for a team that had finished last the year before! He got a harsh reality check when the fortunes of the team changed so rapidly in the 2nd half without him. No longer would he be "the guy," on this team, and worse, his new boss saw him as a problem. He is now a square peg on a board with only round holes. They will allow him to stay long term, only if he becomes a round peg. It's up to him to decide if the one prize of his career that has so far eluded him, a championship, is worth jumping on the lathe to whittle off the corners. Based on the recent workout pic, it looks as though he has spent some time on the lathe. I believe him a proud man who's been humbled somewhat. Egos like his get bruised, not broken. I expect the competitor in him, combined with some gentle mental guidance from Papi will drive him to rebound in 2016. Full disclosure; I was a supporter of the move to LF. I was stunned when he failed so miserably. I've watched, and played ball for 50 years, and never have I seen a gifted SS fail so poorly in a move to another position. So why am I seeing better results for a move to 1B? I was blessed with 20 10, and 20 15 eyesight, which gave me great advantage in baseball/softball. In the past 5 years cataracts has taken that eyesight away, and I now wear glasses that correct to 20 30 and 20 40, while gearing up for lens replacement surgery. The reason I divulged this information is the changing eyesight has given me some perspective I never had previously. Not everyone saw the world as clearly as I did for my first 50 years? Perhaps Hanley is a guy who has stronger depth perception and vision to a shorter distance than others? Perhaps he has a real problem doing what JBJ does so effortlessly; that being to be on a path to the ball in the shortest time possible. I don't know the answers to these questions. But what I do know is Hanley was able to play in the IF at a much higher level than he was in the OF. Ergo, a transition to 1B should be easier than the OF transition. If so, his future here is 100% aligned with his decision to be part of the team, and that means a change of attitude. If he does change, he could provide contract value over these last 3 years. If not, but he recovers his game at 1B, he'll be wearing another uniform. If he never recovers his game, "oh what a waste!" I do however see him as an offensive threat next year. Like a lot of people on these posts, I was encouraged by the Hanley signing & not so much the Pablo......I truly believe, as a man, Hanley wants to succeed. He may not run through brick walls like Trot did but I think it's in him (obviously he is the only one who truly knows this)....someone can't be this gifted & not have the ambition to succeed......With Pablo, he just appears to be having fun & the 3 amigo's & all that, I just don't see an improvement there....Hopefully with 3B being so thin (pun intended), maybe we can move him & roll the dice with Marrero/Shaw/Holt.
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Post by soxfanatic on Nov 17, 2015 12:54:37 GMT -5
If Ortiz really does retire at the end of this season it definitely ups of the chance of not trading Hanley
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Post by Costigan on Nov 17, 2015 13:30:35 GMT -5
If Ortiz really does retire at the end of this season it definitely ups of the chance of not trading Hanley Exactly my thoughts as well. Really hoping for a good bounce back year for Hanley, and an easy transition into the DH spot for 2017.
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Post by sox fan in nc on Nov 17, 2015 14:42:01 GMT -5
If Ortiz really does retire at the end of this season it definitely ups of the chance of not trading Hanley Exactly my thoughts as well. Really hoping for a good bounce back year for Hanley, and an easy transition into the DH spot for 2017. We just have to get thru this year with HanRam @ 1B......you never know, it is possible Ortiz gets hurt (he has missed some time over the past few years) & Hanley slides comfortably to DH. Then last 2 yrs as FT DH. Done.
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Post by mredsox89 on Nov 17, 2015 20:43:06 GMT -5
Exactly my thoughts as well. Really hoping for a good bounce back year for Hanley, and an easy transition into the DH spot for 2017. We just have to get thru this year with HanRam @ 1B......you never know, it is possible Ortiz gets hurt (he has missed some time over the past few years) & Hanley slides comfortably to DH. Then last 2 yrs as FT DH. Done. It's also possible, though sure, probably not as likely, that Hanley is a competent 1B and doesn't necessarily need to move to DH right away, but maybe split time, etc. Obviously the more likely scenario is that if Ortiz retires, Hanley slots as the DH and they no longer have to worry about the defense
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Post by GyIantosca on Nov 17, 2015 21:16:27 GMT -5
Ortiz saves the Sox again. Mazz said this might also boost ticket sales.
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