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Ben Cherington to step down; Dave Dombrowski joins FO
TX
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Posts: 265
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Post by TX on Aug 30, 2015 10:28:12 GMT -5
I'm not sure the loss of the professional scouting director is that big of a loss ... sure, there's Rodriguez, but outside of that? The concern is that Dombrowski's hiring/Cherington's departure signals a change in direction, and as often happens in such cases others may follow. The strength of the Red Sox is and has been their player development, not their money which they've largely spent badly. Given how good they have been, it is hard to imagine changes in the aspect of the organization not being a sizable loss. All the signs suggest there has been a struggle between a "do it now" owner and a "do it the right way" baseball ops with Lucchino as messenger, broker and lightning rod for criticism and resentment between the two sides. Do it now seems to have one, and as Gammons suggests, that could result in many from do it right departing. Dombrowski would have been an ideal complement to Ben Cherington. It's Cherington's departure, and the degree to which it might reflect larger changes in organizational philosophy and mirror the sentiments of others in the organization that worries me. And that is a bad thing.... why? this team needed a change of direction, badly. It's pro scouting (Ben and Porter) was horrid, its glut of quality prospects embarrassing for a first division team lacking in pitching talent, and its assumptions (we can win with groundball pitchers, regardless of their history; we can win without a bullpen; we can win relying on kids carrying the team) were downright, and literally, unprofessional. Personally I don't care what Dom guts. I respect him as a baseball man who knows how to build good teams, and who won't get raped if trading a few prospects becomes a requirement to rebuild this one.
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Post by soxfan1615 on Aug 30, 2015 10:52:41 GMT -5
Cherington still would've built a horrendous bullpen, and a team not really competing in August and September for 3/4 years. The earliest a Theo team was ever out of it was 2006 because the team caught the flu and got swept in a 5 game series. Every other year, Theo's teams were playing meaningful baseball in September, and in every year but 2006,2010 and 2011, October. I have no idea why people are so upset Cherington left. I mean he was clearly a much worse GM than his predecessor Baseball completely changed from the mid 2000's until now. What worked then does not work now. There is so much more parity now and you cannot just buy your teams anymore and bully the lower revenue teams into giving you their best players, who won't decline until their mid to late 30s. So yeah, Epstein did great for us, but it's pretty unfair to compare Cherington to him as if it's apples to apples. Epstein hasn't won since 2007 and he was also handed a great minor league system when he went to the Cubs. Handed a great farm system? He was handed Javier Baez really. All the other prospects he was "handed" were overrated like most prospects. Theo's work in Chicago so far has been absolutely genius. Rizzo for Cashner? Arrieta off the scrap heap? Russell for Shark and Hammell, then getting Hammell back. Drafting Bryant and Schwarber, signing Soler. Theo built that team all himself. This team has the worst record of any big market team other than the Phillies and the Cubs during Cherington's tenure. and the Cubs sucked because they had an incompetent fool before Theo. Also, this team's payroll advantage is so far ahead of the other teams in the league other than the Yankees. We're the closest to the Dodgers and Giants, neither who have sucked nearly as much as us during Cherington's tenure. Cherington was a joke.
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Post by jmei on Aug 30, 2015 11:04:26 GMT -5
Baseball completely changed from the mid 2000's until now. What worked then does not work now. There is so much more parity now and you cannot just buy your teams anymore and bully the lower revenue teams into giving you their best players, who won't decline until their mid to late 30s. So yeah, Epstein did great for us, but it's pretty unfair to compare Cherington to him as if it's apples to apples. Epstein hasn't won since 2007 and he was also handed a great minor league system when he went to the Cubs. Handed a great farm system? He was handed Javier Baez really. All the other prospects he was "handed" were overrated like most prospects. Theo's work in Chicago so far has been absolutely genius. Rizzo for Cashner? Arrieta off the scrap heap? Russell for Shark and Hammell, then getting Hammell back. Drafting Bryant and Schwarber, signing Soler. Theo built that team all himself. This team has the worst record of any big market team other than the Phillies and the Cubs during Cherington's tenure. and the Cubs sucked because they had an incompetent fool before Theo. Also, this team's payroll advantage is so far ahead of the other teams in the league other than the Yankees. We're the closest to the Dodgers and Giants, neither who have sucked nearly as much as us during Cherington's tenure. Cherington was a joke. A joke who won a World Series, largely based on nailing every free agent signing made the previous offseason. I mean, c'mon, man. Also worth noting that Epstein left the team in pretty terrible shape, with limited payroll flexibility due to multiple bad contracts, a mediocre farm system, and weak recent draft classes and IFA signings.
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Post by notguilty on Aug 30, 2015 11:54:39 GMT -5
I have to wonder if the Sox had started playing a month or two earlier like they are now whether Dombrowksi would be with the Red Sox and whether Cherington would be gone. I know it has only been a month or so, but it appears that much of what the old regime was trying to do with regards to the farm system is starting to work. Moreover, the trade for Kelly and the trade and signing of Porcello are not looking quite as bad today as they did a month ago. Cherington still would've built a horrendous bullpen, and a team not really competing in August and September for 3/4 years. The earliest a Theo team was ever out of it was 2006 because the team caught the flu and got swept in a 5 game series. Every other year, Theo's teams were playing meaningful baseball in September, and in every year but 2006,2010 and 2011, October. I have no idea why people are so upset Cherington left. I mean he was clearly a much worse GM than his predecessor Jeez, that's a lot of vitriol against Cherington. Terrible GM, what did he ever do for the Red Sox, right? First, stating "people are upset Cherington left" is a classic debate tactic; you overstate/misstate alternate viewpoints so as to make your own sound better, or more reasonable. That's unnecessary here, and only marginally useful. From what I've been able to tell (and I'll get corrected if I'm wrong), the concern people have is more subtle. It isn't as much that Cherington has left. It's what that departure, combined with the hiring of DD means for the future of this team. Is it allowed to be concerned about that? If you believe that long term, sustainable, major league success is built through solid farm system foundation, then it is fair to wonder whether bringing in DD, combined with the fact that ownership is probably sick of the losing, means that they are shifting from that build sustainable winning team model to a model more oriented towards winning now. Maybe, maybe not, but I think that's a fair question. I speak as somebody who mostly bought into what Cherington was selling, in terms of building the next great Red Sox team. I happen to think he was getting there. But the Cherington FO made so many mistakes (some of them quite mindboggling) over the past 18 months that there was no way he was going to survive this year. And that's perfectly understandable. But at least they held the line on building for the long term; sometimes, not trading your prospects for the next shiny big leaguer is more difficult to do than trading them, especially in a market like Boston. I think Epstein's greatest skill was to blend the win-now and build for the future; in Boston, a GM has to be able to do both, impossible though that seems. Theo gave out his share of hideous contracts too, but those were mitigated by better major league performance. That's what Ben was not able to pull off. The struggle to achieve those two goals at the same time got Theo to run away to a place where he'd have more leeway to do it his way. The inability to do it cost Cherington his job. We'll see how DD does it. But as we dump on Cherington on his way out (something we're quite skilled at, judging by this thread), we should also know that a number of GM opportunities are/were available this year in MLB. Boston's is easily one of the most attractive, and that's in part because of the foundations that Cherington built (and further proof is DD looks like he'll keep some of those foundations). I'm a bit wary of DD, because I'm not sure what his mandate is - but the guy's been making the right noises. I'm unimpressed by what he did in Detroit ( I know, I know, the owner made him do it), but in fairness, he's as solid a choice as any out there to take this team to the next level. So as much as I'm wary, I think I'll refrain from overanalyzing before he actually starts making some moves. As an aside, I think Cherington is more of an organizational, small/mid-market, build for the long term GM type. Give him a few years to build, and don't give him too much money to waste (and complement him with somebody who can evaluate MLB talent) and he'll be fine. Milwaukee would be great for him - Seattle, maybe not so much.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Aug 30, 2015 12:31:25 GMT -5
This is the best analysis I've read of what's gone down. People ready to criticize Cherrington every which way need to look no further than the product on the field right now. The construction of the pitching staff was certainly questionable. But when it comes to the position players, Cherrington had a hand in building a lot of what we see. These days, that looks pretty good.
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Post by burythehammer on Aug 30, 2015 13:29:37 GMT -5
The concern is that Dombrowski's hiring/Cherington's departure signals a change in direction, and as often happens in such cases others may follow. The strength of the Red Sox is and has been their player development, not their money which they've largely spent badly. Given how good they have been, it is hard to imagine changes in the aspect of the organization not being a sizable loss. All the signs suggest there has been a struggle between a "do it now" owner and a "do it the right way" baseball ops with Lucchino as messenger, broker and lightning rod for criticism and resentment between the two sides. Do it now seems to have one, and as Gammons suggests, that could result in many from do it right departing. Dombrowski would have been an ideal complement to Ben Cherington. It's Cherington's departure, and the degree to which it might reflect larger changes in organizational philosophy and mirror the sentiments of others in the organization that worries me. And that is a bad thing.... why? this team needed a change of direction, badly. It's pro scouting (Ben and Porter) was horrid, its glut of quality prospects embarrassing for a first division team lacking in pitching talent, and its assumptions (we can win with groundball pitchers, regardless of their history; we can win without a bullpen; we can win relying on kids carrying the team) were downright, and literally, unprofessional. Personally I don't care what Dom guts. I respect him as a baseball man who knows how to build good teams, and who won't get raped if trading a few prospects becomes a requirement to rebuild this one. Gotta say I've never seen having a great farm system referred to as "embarrassing." That's a scorching take.
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,907
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Post by nomar on Aug 30, 2015 15:22:01 GMT -5
Yeah it was pretty unprofessional for Chicago to have Soler, Bryant, Russell, Schwarber, and Baez come up recently.
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jimoh
Veteran
Posts: 3,990
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Post by jimoh on Aug 30, 2015 15:38:29 GMT -5
And that is a bad thing.... why? this team needed a change of direction, badly. It's pro scouting (Ben and Porter) was horrid, its glut of quality prospects embarrassing for a first division team lacking in pitching talent, and its assumptions (we can win with groundball pitchers, regardless of their history; we can win without a bullpen; we can win relying on kids carrying the team) were downright, and literally, unprofessional. Personally I don't care what Dom guts. I respect him as a baseball man who knows how to build good teams, and who won't get raped if trading a few prospects becomes a requirement to rebuild this one. Gotta say I've never seen having a great farm system referred to as "embarrassing." That's a scorching take. Hmmm, I think people are not being fair to this comment. It's good, for example, to put money into your retirement account, but to have a full-to-bursting retirement account, but not be able to pay your rent, or for medical care you need, is bad judgement, and it's fair to say that someone might be "embararassed" to have messed up his finances in this way.
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Post by grandsalami on Aug 30, 2015 22:34:18 GMT -5
Red Sox assistant GM Mike Hazen “is a stronger candidate than some realize” to be the team’s next general manager according to “rumors around the majors,” Peter Gammons writes in his latest entry on GammonsDaily.com. Hazen has been an assistant GM with the Sox since 2011 and he has interviewed for GM openings with the Padres and Dodgers in recent years. www.mlbtraderumors.com/2015/08/east-notes-hazen-dombrowski-arrieta-fish.html
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,907
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Post by nomar on Aug 30, 2015 22:44:15 GMT -5
Red Sox assistant GM Mike Hazen “is a stronger candidate than some realize” to be the team’s next general manager according to “rumors around the majors,” Peter Gammons writes in his latest entry on GammonsDaily.com. Hazen has been an assistant GM with the Sox since 2011 and he has interviewed for GM openings with the Padres and Dodgers in recent years. www.mlbtraderumors.com/2015/08/east-notes-hazen-dombrowski-arrieta-fish.htmlIf he's anything like Ben I'm fine with Hazen as DD's sidekick.
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Post by grandsalami on Aug 30, 2015 22:45:47 GMT -5
www.gammonsdaily.com/peter-gammons-sea-of-possibilities-for-dombrowski-in-boston/So when Dombrowski gathers the Red Sox professional scouts this coming week and continues his search for a general manager, he isn’t plotting to trade away two-thirds of what virtually every rating and scouting service considers the best farm system in the game. Sure, there are dozens of scouts in on Greenville, considered by Baseball America the best prospect team in the minors, but someone good is going to have to be traded. Eduardo Rodriguez, Brian Johnson and Henry Owens may well be front-enders to keepers, and 17-year-olds Anderson Espinoza and Roniel Raudez may be their answers to Jose Fernandez, but they likely are three to five years from the radar. Dombrowski has made it clear he wants changes to the pro scouting structure. Director Jared Porter has already left for the Cubs, and other changes may come; Allard Baird, the hardest-working, most loyal employee, could be at risk for his part in the Carl Crawford and Pablo Sandoval signings (despite Sandoval’s recent uptick), although he had Jose Abreu done and was overruled by ownership. read the whole thing... to many things to quote here
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Post by Oregon Norm on Aug 30, 2015 23:25:41 GMT -5
Here's a pop quiz, courtesy of the GammonsDaily linked above: Admittedly, that question's not much of a challenge.
...and props to Temple for his observation, even before we heard from this scout:
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Post by soxfan1615 on Aug 30, 2015 23:39:09 GMT -5
Yeah it was pretty unprofessional for Chicago to have Soler, Bryant, Russell, Schwarber, and Baez come up recently. He said for a first division team lacking in Pitching Talent. The Cubs are certainly not lacking in Pitching talent because they found Arrieta and Hammell off the scrap heap, got Hendricks in a trade for a rental and signed Lester, who they believed to be a good fit. Meanwhile, Ben Cherington signed Justin Masterson off the scrap heap, wouldn't sign Lester, but instead signed Porcello to 4/80, and trades his rentals for guys like Allen Craig, Joe Kelly and Edwin Escobar
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Post by Oregon Norm on Aug 30, 2015 23:45:01 GMT -5
Yeah it was pretty unprofessional for Chicago to have Soler, Bryant, Russell, Schwarber, and Baez come up recently. He said for a first division team lacking in Pitching Talent. The Cubs are certainly not lacking in Pitching talent because they found Arrieta and Hammell off the scrap heap, got Hendricks in a trade for a rental and signed Lester, who they believed to be a good fit. Meanwhile, Ben Cherington signed Justin Masterson off the scrap heap, wouldn't sign Lester, but instead signed Porcello to 4/80, and trades his rentals for guys like Allen Craig, Joe Kelly and Edwin Escobar You might want to temper the criticism a bit. Read he Gammons piece for more details on Kelly and Porcello. The latter was hitting 95 on the gun during his last outing, something I saw but blew off as a bad reading. Apparently not. These guys aren't perfect, but they can be more than adequate as part of a 5 or 6 man rotation. Read it.
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Post by soxfan1615 on Aug 31, 2015 0:01:49 GMT -5
He said for a first division team lacking in Pitching Talent. The Cubs are certainly not lacking in Pitching talent because they found Arrieta and Hammell off the scrap heap, got Hendricks in a trade for a rental and signed Lester, who they believed to be a good fit. Meanwhile, Ben Cherington signed Justin Masterson off the scrap heap, wouldn't sign Lester, but instead signed Porcello to 4/80, and trades his rentals for guys like Allen Craig, Joe Kelly and Edwin Escobar You might want to temper the criticism a bit. Read he Gammons piece for more details on Kelly and Porcello. The latter was hitting 95 on the gun during his last outing, something I saw but blew off as a bad reading. Apparently not. These guys aren't perfect, but they can be more than adequate as part of a 5 or 6 man rotation. Read it. I agree Porcello should be in the rotation next year. He's not a bad pitcher, however, the Cubs have 2-4 pitchers better than him, and he's had an atrocious year. Cherington was just horrible at building a pitching staff. So far, he acquired basically one pitcher ever who was a very good pitcher for us. Koji. Look at the huge list of failures. Bailey Melancon Aaron Cook Hanrahan Dempster Mujica Masterson Kelly (Turning the corner, but still a horrendous trade) Porcello so far, although I believe he will turn it around The entire 2013 pitching staff was built by The other than Koji, and Peavy, who was ok. Cherington then traded it away in 2014, and replaced it with a bunch of bums. I have read the Gammons piece.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Aug 31, 2015 0:38:36 GMT -5
You might want to step back and think this through. Check out Jake Arrieta and Corey Kluber and see what they did at 26, aside from a struggle mightily. Their numbers were worse than Kelly's at the same age. I'm not making that up.
I've written this many times before. One big problem is the demand in Boston to win and win now. There is very little patience for waiting things out. Cherrington paid for it with his job. For all we know he might look like a genius in a few years, years he didn't have.
I can't begin to tell you how happy I am they waited Bradley out. That potential all-star is going to play for the Sox, and it could easily have been another team, if the talking heads had had their way.
Baseball begs for patience. That's something that's in short supply these days.
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Post by soxfan1615 on Aug 31, 2015 0:44:41 GMT -5
You might want to step back and think this through. Check out Jake Arrieta and Corey Kluber and see what they did at 26, aside from a struggle mightily. Their numbers were worse than Kelly's at the same age. I'm not making that up. I've written this many times before. One big problem is the demand in Boston to win and win now. There is very little patience for waiting things out. Cherrington paid for it with his job. For all we know he might look like a genius in a few years, years he didn't have. I can't begin to tell you how happy I am they waited Bradley out. That potential all-star is going to play for the Sox, and it could easily have been another team, if the talking heads had had their way. Baseball begs for patience. That's something that's in short supply these days. Just because rarely, guys like Kluber, Arrieta and Keuchel break out doesn't mean you should let the Joe Kelly's of the world pitch in your rotation forever. Move him to the minors or the bullpen and hope be figures it out, but what Cherington has done so far with the pitching has been a massive failure.
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Post by dcsoxfan on Aug 31, 2015 6:13:59 GMT -5
You might want to step back and think this through. Check out Jake Arrieta and Corey Kluber and see what they did at 26, aside from a struggle mightily. Their numbers were worse than Kelly's at the same age. I'm not making that up. I've written this many times before. One big problem is the demand in Boston to win and win now. There is very little patience for waiting things out. Cherrington paid for it with his job. For all we know he might look like a genius in a few years, years he didn't have. I can't begin to tell you how happy I am they waited Bradley out. That potential all-star is going to play for the Sox, and it could easily have been another team, if the talking heads had had their way. Baseball begs for patience. That's something that's in short supply these days. Just because rarely, guys like Kluber, Arrieta and Keuchel break out doesn't mean you should let the Joe Kelly's of the world pitch in your rotation forever. Move him to the minors or the bullpen and hope be figures it out, but what Cherington has done so far with the pitching has been a massive failure. There's a GM out in San Diego you would love.
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jimoh
Veteran
Posts: 3,990
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Post by jimoh on Aug 31, 2015 6:15:39 GMT -5
You might want to step back and think this through. Check out Jake Arrieta and Corey Kluber and see what they did at 26, aside from a struggle mightily. Their numbers were worse than Kelly's at the same age. I'm not making that up. I've written this many times before. One big problem is the demand in Boston to win and win now. There is very little patience for waiting things out. Cherrington paid for it with his job. For all we know he might look like a genius in a few years, years he didn't have. I can't begin to tell you how happy I am they waited Bradley out. That potential all-star is going to play for the Sox, and it could easily have been another team, if the talking heads had had their way. Baseball begs for patience. That's something that's in short supply these days. Bruce Hurst at 26 in 1984: 12-12, FIP 4.30 WHIP 1.468 BB9 3.6, SO9 5.6 Bruce Hurst at 28 in 1986: 13-8 FIP 3.11 WHIP 1.256 BB9 2.6 SO9 8.6 plus a pretty good post-season! --
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Post by burythehammer on Aug 31, 2015 6:46:58 GMT -5
Gotta say I've never seen having a great farm system referred to as "embarrassing." That's a scorching take. Hmmm, I think people are not being fair to this comment. It's good, for example, to put money into your retirement account, but to have a full-to-bursting retirement account, but not be able to pay your rent, or for medical care you need, is bad judgement, and it's fair to say that someone might be "embararassed" to have messed up his finances in this way. You can take out the money you've put into a retirement account any time you want. Not a great analogy.
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mobaz
Veteran
Posts: 2,799
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Post by mobaz on Aug 31, 2015 7:52:08 GMT -5
You might want to step back and think this through. Check out Jake Arrieta and Corey Kluber and see whourat they did at 26, aside from a struggle mightily. Their numbers were worse than Kelly's at the same age. I'm not making that up. I've written this many times before. One big problem is the demand in Boston to win and win now. There is very little patience for waiting things out. Cherrington paid for it with his job. For all we know he might look like a genius in a few years, years he didn't have. I can't begin to tell you how happy I am they waited Bradley out. That potential all-star is going to play for the Sox, and it could easily have been another team, if the talking heads had had their way. Baseball begs for patience. That's something that's in short supply these days. Just because rarely, guys like Kluber, Arrieta and Keuchel break out doesn't mean you should let the Joe Kelly's of the world pitch in your rotation forever. Move him to the minors or the bullpen and hope be figures it out, but what Cherington has done so far with the pitching has been a massive failure. You just mentioned three of the best pitchers in baseball. Waiting out pitchers with quality stuff might just be the next market inefficiency.
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Post by mandelbro on Aug 31, 2015 8:29:28 GMT -5
This duality people are pushing between "Cherington and his wonderful patient long view" and "big bad irresponsible win-now Dombrowski" is just not accurate. Cherington made some very significant win-now moves. At the deadline he turned the two best arms on the trade market in Lester and Lackey into "MLB players" instead of prospects, and followed that up with perfectly unproductive outlay of $275M. Had BC been the model of patience and responsibility that some want to give him credit for... he'd still be here.
At the end of the day the Red Sox are going to have to make productive moves at the MLB level to take the next step forwards. They're in a pretty big hole in that regard already thanks to Cherington's missteps. John Henry and co. probably see Dombrowski as the guy for that job.
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Post by soxfan1615 on Aug 31, 2015 8:48:14 GMT -5
Just because rarely, guys like Kluber, Arrieta and Keuchel break out doesn't mean you should let the Joe Kelly's of the world pitch in your rotation forever. Move him to the minors or the bullpen and hope be figures it out, but what Cherington has done so far with the pitching has been a massive failure. You just mentioned three of the best pitchers in baseball. Waiting out pitchers with quality stuff might just be the next market inefficiency. Its called good scouting, not waiting out. And we can wait out while guys like that pitch in the minors or the bullpen. I'm perfectly fine with hoping a guy has a breakout in the majors if he's already competent like Kluber (think Porcello) but if he's not good enough to be in your rotation, you dont leave him in your rotation in the hopes he figures it out.
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Post by soxfan1615 on Aug 31, 2015 8:52:36 GMT -5
Just because rarely, guys like Kluber, Arrieta and Keuchel break out doesn't mean you should let the Joe Kelly's of the world pitch in your rotation forever. Move him to the minors or the bullpen and hope be figures it out, but what Cherington has done so far with the pitching has been a massive failure. There's a GM out in San Diego you would love. Yeah, I don't want a moron who plays Wil Myers in CF, and trades prospects for relievers and Melvin Upton, but I also don't want an idiot like Cherington who hoards all of his prospects and stands by while the Major League team sucks. A good balance is needed. A guy like Theo had the perfect balance.
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Post by mandelbro on Aug 31, 2015 8:58:57 GMT -5
You just mentioned three of the best pitchers in baseball. Waiting out pitchers with quality stuff might just be the next market inefficiency. Its called good scouting, not waiting out. And we can wait out while guys like that pitch in the minors or the bullpen. I'm perfectly fine with hoping a guy has a breakout in the majors if he's already competent like Kluber (think Porcello) but if he's not good enough to be in your rotation, you dont leave him in your rotation in the hopes he figures it out. The Cardinals have had success using the bullpen as a "holding area" for their starters. Carlos Martinez, Lance Lynn, Shelby Miller, Adam Wainwright, and Joe Kelly all came out of the bullpen before they made their first start. The value of this strategy when executed correctly (as STL does but BOS may not have confidence in) is: 1. It gets the pitcher broken in facing MLB hitters without the team having to eat 100 innings of learning on the job 2. Relief pitchers are notoriously volatile and it saves the club some forays into that market On the flip side, St. Louis' strategy would burn a year of team control of these prospective starters as a relief pitcher, which seems like it would be unpalatable to the Red Sox. Hard to argue with the success though.
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