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Ben Cherington to step down; Dave Dombrowski joins FO
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Post by Oregon Norm on Sept 6, 2015 0:07:02 GMT -5
No surprise that a bunch of names have been brought up. Easy to see why he might like the job at this point. The offense is on fire, the starters are slowly climbing out of the hole they fell into, he's got the owner's cash to spend, and he's getting friended by a lot of GMs.
There are some tough decisions to be made, but he isn't devoid of assets.
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Post by mredsox89 on Sept 6, 2015 0:47:22 GMT -5
Could argue that there hasn't been a better opening available in a very long time, between the current MLB talent, the MILB talent, and the apparent $ to spend
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brisox
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Post by brisox on Sept 6, 2015 6:43:05 GMT -5
Does anyone have any thoughts on where Cherington might go? It would be a little surprising to see him immediately land a GM job, but I think a team that isn't expected to compete (Brewers?) for a few years and is interested in a well-stocked farm system would strongly consider him. Ben is taking some time to be with family and I expect he may not take a role right away
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Post by thursty on Sept 6, 2015 23:07:42 GMT -5
Kevin Towers is worse than Amaro
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Post by burythehammer on Sept 7, 2015 6:49:59 GMT -5
I'm not saying Dombrowski, coming from Detroit, should be intimately familiar with every player in our organization, but....isn't it kinda a GM's job to know the other 29 teams really well? Or at least their top prospects? Maybe DD is just playing coy with the media but based on his comments he was barely even aware of guys like ERod and JBJ who have been IN the majors. Like, if you're a GM in baseball in 2015 you shouldn't have to have someone tell you that Eduardo Rodriguez is really good like he's some teenager in rookie ball.
I realize when trades happen even the smartest GMs rely on their pro scouting departments and the like to give them names of guys to target but, I'd be stunned if Ben Cherington, for example, couldn't name off the top of his head at least a few guys from every single team who would be of interest. DD comes across more as your grandpa who only watches/cares about his teams' games.
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Post by bigpapismangosalsa on Sept 7, 2015 8:07:59 GMT -5
If you're referring to the most recent quote from Dombrowski in the ProJo article, BTH, I am pretty certain that this applies to our minor league system, and he's talking about players further down in minors, not guys in AAA and certainly not those on the Major League roster.
You did mention Rodriguez and Bradley Jr, honestly I've never once gotten the feeling from Dombrowski that he doesn't know exactly who those guys are. He's mentioned that he sees Rodriguez as a potential front end starter (if he had no knowledge of him beyond his seasonal statline in Boston this year, he'd think of him as a number 3). Wiht regards to Jackie Bradley Jr, the same thing applies. When he made most of his quotes about the outfield, it was nearly a month ago, and we were still operating under the Hanley Ramirez is an outfielder discussion.
I fully admit that I have / had some very strong reservations about the Dombrowski for Cherington swap, mostly because of what I perceived to be a change in mandate from ownership to "go for it now because 3/4 seasons in last place is totally unacceptable in Boston, so trade the kids for Andrew Cashner". All that said, it's not out of the realm of possibility that Dombrowski had the cache to only take this job if he knew he'd have autonomy on the baseball side and that he PLANS to build it like he did the early 2000s Marlins.
If he is able to hold on to the young core (Swihart, Vazquez, Bogaerts, Betts, Bradley Jr, Castillo, Rodriguez) and the elite prospects (Devers, Moncada, Espinoza, Benintendi) while using some of the redundancy to acquire solid pitching, this could be a team in line to dominate for years to come.
It's for that exact reason, by the way, that I think this team is in a similar position to how the Cubs finished up last year and approached this past off-season, and why signing David Price makes sense. Personally, I think there are way too many question marks besides the obvious (over 30) with Cueto, Grienke, Zimmerman, etc. With Price, the only "red flag" associated with him is the age. A rotation of Price, "Carlos Quintana", Rick Porcello, Eduardo Rodriguez and the winner of an Owens, Kelly, Johnson, Stephen Wright competition (with the others in the 'pen in a St Louis type model) looks very good to me now and for the future.
If you augment that with a line up (by position, numerically) of Swihart, Hanley / Shaw, Pedroia, Holt / Shaw, Bogaerts, Betts, Bradley Jr, Castillo, Ortiz, you're talking about a great mix of older, prime, younger talent and not gutting the farm system.
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Post by brianthetaoist on Sept 7, 2015 9:02:51 GMT -5
I'm not saying Dombrowski, coming from Detroit, should be intimately familiar with every player in our organization, but....isn't it kinda a GM's job to know the other 29 teams really well? Or at least their top prospects? Maybe DD is just playing coy with the media but based on his comments he was barely even aware of guys like ERod and JBJ who have been IN the majors. Like, if you're a GM in baseball in 2015 you shouldn't have to have someone tell you that Eduardo Rodriguez is really good like he's some teenager in rookie ball. I realize when trades happen even the smartest GMs rely on their pro scouting departments and the like to give them names of guys to target but, I'd be stunned if Ben Cherington, for example, couldn't name off the top of his head at least a few guys from every single team who would be of interest. DD comes across more as your grandpa who only watches/cares about his teams' games. Where did you get this? He tried to trade for JBJ last winter, so clearly he knew who he is ... Although I agree that in general fans put too much emphasis on the GM and not enough on the whole organization that the GM/President is the head of.
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Post by dcsoxfan on Sept 7, 2015 10:17:54 GMT -5
I'm not saying Dombrowski, coming from Detroit, should be intimately familiar with every player in our organization, but....isn't it kinda a GM's job to know the other 29 teams really well? Or at least their top prospects? Maybe DD is just playing coy with the media but based on his comments he was barely even aware of guys like ERod and JBJ who have been IN the majors. Like, if you're a GM in baseball in 2015 you shouldn't have to have someone tell you that Eduardo Rodriguez is really good like he's some teenager in rookie ball. I realize when trades happen even the smartest GMs rely on their pro scouting departments and the like to give them names of guys to target but, I'd be stunned if Ben Cherington, for example, couldn't name off the top of his head at least a few guys from every single team who would be of interest. DD comes across more as your grandpa who only watches/cares about his teams' games. Where did you get this? He tried to trade for JBJ last winter, so clearly he knew who he is ... Although I agree that in general fans put too much emphasis on the GM and not enough on the whole organization that the GM/President is the head of. I think this last point is critical. My major concern when Dombrowski was hired AND Cherington decided to step down was and still is how much of the Red Sox truly exceptional player development will leave. Similarly, I feel many of the moves the Red Sox have made over the last five years --ever since the bridge year interview -- have been compromise moves between a win-now owner and a GM (Epstein first, Cherington second) determined to hold on to his prospects (as Epstein in fact has done in Chicago). One last related observation is that Epstein seems better with Hoyer around him. To his great credit, Epstein seems to understand the need to work with someone with complementary skills. These are all exceptional people. The key in each case is whom they are able surround themselves with.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2015 21:02:32 GMT -5
Too bad the Tigers didn't fire Dombrowski earlier. He's been just what the doctor ordered. The Sox are winning at a .684 clip since hiring him - Compared to a paltry .478 overall clip under Cherington.
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Sept 7, 2015 21:55:37 GMT -5
Too bad the Tigers didn't fire Dombrowski earlier. He's been just what the doctor ordered. The Sox are winning at a .684 clip since hiring him - Compared to a paltry .478 overall clip under Cherington. Yeah that's all because of the roster moves DD has made.
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Post by chud on Sept 8, 2015 3:18:39 GMT -5
This has nothing to do with anything but one thing I've noticed so far is that DD is definitely a less guarded speaker than either Theo or BC were. Some of DD's quotes seem right from the gut, like he's talking to his neighbor as opposed to the media...Whereas Theo, and to an even greater degree BC, were so calculated in their statements to the media, in a "Pre-Divorce Tiger Woods" kind of way...Not saying I like it or don't like it, just an observation that I'm curious to see how it plays out going forward. Theo got so unfairly grilled over the "Bridge Year" non-sense when everyone new what he meant... I'll be curious to see if the older school baseball guy (DD) gets more leeway from the older school Boston media types (Cafardo, Shaunassey etc...) on what he says...and for a point of reference I'm all for the DD hiring and think I may have been the first to suggest it, but again, I'm just curious to see how it plays out in the media.
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Post by burythehammer on Sept 8, 2015 5:25:55 GMT -5
Yeah, the media will tell you they love a guy who speaks his mind, just like lions love a gazelle who is brave enough to wander into their den.
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wbcd
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Post by wbcd on Sept 8, 2015 13:14:46 GMT -5
Too bad the Tigers didn't fire Dombrowski earlier. He's been just what the doctor ordered. The Sox are winning at a .684 clip since hiring him - Compared to a paltry .478 overall clip under Cherington. Alternatively, if the Tigers wait a month to fire DD, does Ben still have a job? Ben's tenure takes on a whole new interpretation with the rise of JBJ and Castillo and the resurgence of Kelly and Porcello.
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Post by mredsox89 on Sept 8, 2015 13:24:30 GMT -5
My guess is that BC will end up looking a lot better in the long run than he did at the time of his leaving. I can't blame him for leaving if all of a sudden he's basically got to answer to yet another top level guy, but he also built a spectacular core that still contains a plus farm system
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Sept 8, 2015 13:26:32 GMT -5
I really just don't see this organization employing Wren or Towers.
Dan O'Dowd actually doesn't sound bad to me. He's shown that he has a good eye for offensive talent, and I really hold nothing against him in regards to pitching because it is literally impossible to sustain any high level of pitching in Colorado. He's not one to get bullied in trades either. I'd be content with him as DD's GM.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2015 14:09:57 GMT -5
What is all of this revisionist history regarding Cherington's achievements? Xander signed in 2009. Swihart, Bradley, Betts, Shaw and Owens (as well as Barnes and Noe) all came out of the 2011 draft. ALL of these guys were acquired under Theo's watch. Whatever this group accomplishes is a credit to Theo NOT Cherington.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 8, 2015 14:11:45 GMT -5
What is all of this revisionist history regarding Cherington's achievements? Xander signed in 2009. Swihart, Bradley, Betts, Shaw and Owens (as well as Barnes and Noe) all came out of the 2011 draft. ALL of these guys were acquired under Theo's watch. Whatever this group accomplishes is a credit to Theo NOT Cherington. He kept them.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2015 14:14:32 GMT -5
What is all of this revisionist history regarding Cherington's achievements? Xander signed in 2009. Swihart, Bradley, Betts, Shaw and Owens (as well as Barnes and Noe) all came out of the 2011 draft. ALL of these guys were acquired under Theo's watch. Whatever this group accomplishes is a credit to Theo NOT Cherington. He kept them. Cherington kept EVERYONE. The man was paralyzed with fear when it came to making a trade involving prospects - to the point that when he did trade them it was well after every flaw they had was exposed and they'd become basically worthless.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 8, 2015 14:20:51 GMT -5
Cherington kept EVERYONE. The man was paralyzed with fear when it came to making a trade involving prospects - to the point that when he did trade them it was well after every flaw they had was exposed and they'd become basically worthless. And look at what they have now. It worked. Just about any other GM would have panicked and gone for the Xander for Cliff Lee trade or the Betts/Swihart for Hamels trade. And then dumped JBJ for a relief pitcher or something. They are in the position they are now because Ben didn't panic and rightly believed in the system to produce good young major league talent that you can't trade for.
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Post by brianthetaoist on Sept 8, 2015 14:23:23 GMT -5
What is all of this revisionist history regarding Cherington's achievements? Xander signed in 2009. Swihart, Bradley, Betts, Shaw and Owens (as well as Barnes and Noe) all came out of the 2011 draft. ALL of these guys were acquired under Theo's watch. Whatever this group accomplishes is a credit to Theo NOT Cherington. Well, then Cherington can't win at this game. If you give credit to everyone in the system before he got here, then he simply didn't have time to build up a roster of contributors to the major league roster. But if you criticize him for not fielding a good enough major league roster, then you can't ignore the fact that he could've traded all of those guys away for a better roster this year and last. Besides, we probably should credit Sawdaye with acquiring those players more than either Theo or Cherington.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 8, 2015 14:27:54 GMT -5
And you can definitely credit Cherington for Moncada, Devers, Benintendi, Guerra, Espinoza, Travis and Kopech. Even with the ridiculous amount of good young players they have in the majors already, that might be an even better group of prospects coming up behind them if that's even possible.
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Sept 8, 2015 14:35:07 GMT -5
And you can definitely credit Cherington for Moncada, Devers, Benintendi, Guerra, Espinoza, Travis and Kopech. Even with the ridiculous amount of good young players they have in the majors already, that might be an even better group of prospects coming up behind them if that's even possible. And Rodriguez. Django has an axe to grind with BC. We get it. What a worn out narrative.
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Post by ibsmith85 on Sept 8, 2015 14:49:23 GMT -5
What is all of this revisionist history regarding Cherington's achievements? Xander signed in 2009. Swihart, Bradley, Betts, Shaw and Owens (as well as Barnes and Noe) all came out of the 2011 draft. ALL of these guys were acquired under Theo's watch. Whatever this group accomplishes is a credit to Theo NOT Cherington. Remind me again when Cherington started in the organization. Oh that's right, 1999. He served in several different roles including Director of player personnel, Asst. GM, and several other positions. I bet he was involved in some level on every player that is in the organization to some degree. I truly think we need to stop crediting a single person with the reason a player is acquired. Lots of people are responsible. Just like Theo, Ben surrounded himself with a lot of smart people who all helped build this core/farm. I'm not singling you out Django, I view the counter points made against are viewed the same way for me. The scout who made the discovery of the said players deserves a ton of the credit in my opinion. From there I can't imagine how many people are involved till the end of the process when the player is signed. Just my 2 cents.
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Post by Gwell55 on Sept 8, 2015 15:00:11 GMT -5
What is all of this revisionist history regarding Cherington's achievements? Xander signed in 2009. Swihart, Bradley, Betts, Shaw and Owens (as well as Barnes and Noe) all came out of the 2011 draft. ALL of these guys were acquired under Theo's watch. Whatever this group accomplishes is a credit to Theo NOT Cherington. He kept them. Or did LL keep them? We got to look at this from the real point of view on all of it. By the way didn't Dave take 1/2 of LL job thus making Ben in the same position he was in? Seems to me that Cherington and Theo had just as much to do with those killer B's no matter if LL, Theo, or Ben's name was on the top plaque.
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Post by brianthetaoist on Sept 8, 2015 15:01:43 GMT -5
I'm not doing this to change anyone's mind, but guidas's post in the other thread got me thinking of this ... when Cherington assumed power, Anthony Rizzo was already gone. So, for him, the draft classes of 2007-2010 produced almost nothing. Christian Vazquez is basically it, and he got hurt before he could rack up some real positive WAR, so in a sense, even he didn't help Cherington. And, from Latin America & the Caribbean, the only thing between Anibal Sanchez in 2001 and Xander Bogaerts in 2009 is basically Felix Doubront (plus some marginal value in Stolmy Pimentel and a couple others who were gone by the time Cherington took over). So he got really nothing from IFAs outside of Tazawa, and nothing from the drafts relevant to his time. This is the talent gap the Sox had to deal with during Cherington's reign. His 3+ years coincided almost exactly with the years that 2007-2010 draft (and slightly earlier IFA classes) should have been putting up mid-career WAR numbers in Boston. Now, there were some good players in Boston that he got the benefit of, but when people talk about the lull in the system, this is what it's about. Of course, then Sawdaye - after his meh 2010 draft - took a mysterious trip to a crossroads in Mississippi and came back to draft the 2011 class ... which laid the foundation of the current team, and Romero rebuilt the IFA system, which laid the foundations for the current talent-rich system in the lower levels.
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