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David Ortiz - most impactful acquisition in Red Sox history?
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Post by geostorm on Sept 14, 2015 15:05:24 GMT -5
Alex Speier presents it so, in his very fine "108 Stitches" -
David Ortiz is not the greatest player in Red Sox history. Good luck wrestling that title from an organization that featured Ted Williams and Cy Young and Carl Yastrzemski and Pedro Martinez, among others.
In fact, according to Baseball-Reference.com, Ortiz ranks 10th in franchise history in career (regular season) Wins Above Replacement. Here’s the top 10:
Ted Williams, 123.1
Carl Yastrzemski, 96.1
Roger Clemens, 81.3
Wade Boggs, 71.6
Cy Young, 66.2
Dwight Evans, 66.2
Tris Speaker, 55.4
Pedro Martinez, 53.8
Bobby Doerr, 51.2
David Ortiz, 48.0
It’s no slight, of course, to rank behind that group of nine – which includes seven Hall of Famers, one player who is at the least among the three most dominant pitchers whose careers started after World War II (Clemens), and one criminally underrated star whose career would have been viewed very differently if it had taken place in a subsequent era (Evans).
But, that caveat notwithstanding, it’s worth asking at a time when his 500th career homer crystallizes conversations about legacies and intergenerational significance: Is Ortiz the most important player in Red Sox history?
His sustained middle-of-the-order production over a 13-season stretch now outranks any other hitter in Red Sox history for consistency save for, of course, the great Williams. At 39 years old and at a time when offense has been depressed considerably, his line (.275 with a .361 OBP, .556 slugging mark, and 34 homers) looks very similar to what he’s done over the entire course of his career in Boston (.289/.385/.566 with an average of 34 homers a year).
That sustained excellence production, in turn, has allowed him to represent the lineup centerpiece on three World Series winners over an expanse of 10 seasons between 2004 and 2013.
No one else in Red Sox history can make that claim. His initial arrival, meanwhile, came as such a bargain – as did many of the following years – that it permitted the Red Sox all kinds of flexibility in the construction of a roster around him...one that had me reflecting on.
Some players represent giant payroll-choking roster burdens despite star-caliber performances – Alex Rodriguez with the Rangers comes to mind, among many other instances – but Ortiz (though compensated handsomely for a DH in recent years) has always fit neatly into the rest of what the Sox wanted to accomplish. Indeed, he continues to do so, helping to explain why the Sox’ visions of moving beyond their current station at the bottom of the American League East necessarily will be wrapped closely with his future production, just as was the case when he re-signed with the team after the last-place 2012 season.
Add to it the fact that Ortiz owns a postseason highlight reel unmatched in team history, and it becomes easier to appreciate why, at the field level, Red Sox players and coaches don’t shy from saying how much the opportunity to play with Ortiz means to them.
It remains to be seen whether he ends up in the Hall of Fame (he has Nick Cafardo’s vote) or the number of homers he eventually accumulates. But for the Sox, it’s more than enough to know that in Ortiz, they quietly acquired a man whose impact on the franchise would be perhaps more far-reaching than anyone else.
For those who hadn't a chance to catch it, nor are a subscriber, I thought it might be found an interesting read, for comment or not - one that had me reflecting on whether I had taken that "impact" for granted, in some ways.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Sept 14, 2015 17:09:57 GMT -5
Do we really need to pump David Ortiz up as the greatest something something ever to celebrate his career?
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Post by m1keyboots on Sept 14, 2015 17:30:17 GMT -5
Really happy how he changed his approach around 2010 and became a hitter, after his peak, which it seemed like he was a launch pad
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Sept 14, 2015 17:38:05 GMT -5
Do we really need to pump David Ortiz up as the greatest something something ever to celebrate his career? No only did the guy mention nothing about David Ortiz being the "greatest something something", he went out of his way to say he wasn't the greatest player ever, that is the only time I read where greatest was written. This is a rude post. If I want to take a literal definition of the word acquisition, taken or traded from another team, then IMHO, he is. His consistancy, performance overall (and in big spots), and his apparent leadership in the clubhouse would lead me to that conclusion.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 14, 2015 18:28:40 GMT -5
The greatest acquisition was Pedro, but Papi has a lot more longevity.
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Post by Don Caballero on Sept 14, 2015 19:18:20 GMT -5
Yes.
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Post by ibsmith85 on Sept 14, 2015 19:51:31 GMT -5
The best FA signing for sure.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Sept 14, 2015 23:01:22 GMT -5
For a team like Boston that has been blessed to have had offensive forces, like Ted Williams, Yaz, ortiz, Jim Rice and Dwight Evans. Does any one of them have to have been the greatest acquisition?
Some teams STILL haven't have had any player of that caliber and have been in the league for several decades.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2015 1:48:49 GMT -5
"Impactful" is an interesting choice of words - It can be interpreted in a ton of ways. David Ortiz has three rings (to zero for Teddy Ballgame) and he's a beloved member of a team whose history of integration is second worst to none. While not the best player to ever don the uniform - I could never concede that title to anyone who spent the vast majority of his career solely as a DH - Ortiz may well be the most "impactful" player in the team's history. Personally, I think he's going to retire having hit #600 in a Red Sox uniform. Until that time though, I'm going to enjoy everything the man has left to give - Which, more often than not, is everything he's got.
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Post by bluechip on Sept 15, 2015 2:39:06 GMT -5
It has certainly been a pleasure to watch him play for the team for the last few years. He has clearly given this team some of its best moments in its entire history. I am happy that he has also achieved his most recent personal milestone to add to all of his team accomplishments.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Sept 15, 2015 13:09:02 GMT -5
Don't know if he's the most impactful. If this were 1960 and we had been watching Ted Williams the past 21 years we'd be talking about him in reverential tones like we speak of Pedro.
I would say for sure that Ortiz might be the most taken for granted Red Sox star. I don't think he's appreciated as much as he should be. All the talk about PEDs from 2003 when he showed up on a list for who knows what. All the talk about his contract battles, complaining about RBIs taken away or complaining about the umpires' calls or complaining about the new speed up game rules. All the talk about his decline which has been going on for seven seasons now, at the rate of the continental drift.
So little talk about his reliability day in and day out. The Sox have had a guy they can pencil into the middle of the order for 13 seasons now and there seems little reason that wouldn't happen next year, even at age 40. He has been that one guy you absolutely fear if you're the opposing pitcher in a tight spot in a big ballgame, and he still is after all these years.
He was the voice of Boston Strong at Fenway. He was the one who called an impromptu meeting to remind his teammates that they need to seize the day during the 4th game of the 2013 World Series, when the Sox looked lethargic, and sure enough they scored that inning and went on to never lose again in 2013, the World Series where nobody could hit .200 but he almost hit .700.
He reminded his teammates in 2007 during the ALCS what it meant to wear the Red Sox uniforms, reminding them that they were bad mfers, and of course he wouldn't let the Sox lose Game 4 or Game 5 of the ALCS in 2004, the types of games that they always lost to the Yanks in the past.
And oh yeah, I still don't believe the Sox would have recovered if he hadn't hit that thrilling grand slam against the Tigers in the 2013 ALCS, and this guy also walked the Angels off in the 2004 ALDS during a game the Sox looked like they'd blow. Of course he also hammered the Cards in 2004 and the Rockies in 2007 as well.
Before Ortiz arrived the thought of the Sox winning it all once let alone thrice was hard to imagine, especially if you had been a fan for awhile, and if somebody told you that this DH would come along and lead your team to glory three times, get just about every big hit you could imagine, and even make a key defensive play in a World Series (perfect peg to nail Suppan and totally deflate and kill the Cardinals), you would think Superman put on a Red Sox jersey.
Yet, I still hear a lot of criticism about him, and I'm not saying he's totally above reproach, but my god, David Ortiz has been such an absolute joy to watch all of these years, it can be easy to forget that simple fact. When he finally retires, I will miss him very much. The Sox have a ton of young talent with potentially brilliant futures ahead of them, but they will be hard pressed to match what David Ortiz has given all of us.
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Post by jrffam05 on Sept 15, 2015 14:01:51 GMT -5
I'm going to defend it, I agree he is the most impactful. Doesn't mean he was as good of a player as Pedro or Williams, and you won't see it in his WAR numbers, but let's look at it one simple way.
2004:.301/.380/.603 .408 wOBA 147 wRC+ Regular season 2004:.400/.515/.764 .521 wOBA 222 wRC+ Postseason
2007:.332/.445/.621 .449 wOBA 175 wRC+ Regular season 2007:.370/.508/.696 .491 wOBA 203 wRC+ Postseason
2013:.309/.395/.564 .400 wOBA 151 wRC+ Regular season 2013:.353/.500/.706 .492 wOBA 214 wRC+ Postseason
He was a major part of every world series this team won since the deadball era. You could make the argument that without him, we'd still be talking about the curse of the bambino. The ultimate goal of each season is to win the world series, not to be the greatest hitter or greatest pitcher of all time. There is no player you could remove from history that would have a bigger impact on what this franchise accomplished than David Ortiz.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 15, 2015 14:09:15 GMT -5
I'm going to defend it, I agree he is the most impactful. Doesn't mean he was as good of a player as Pedro or Williams, and you won't see it in his WAR numbers, but let's look at it one simple way. 2004:.301/.380/.603 .408 wOBA 147 wRC+ Regular season 2004:.400/.515/.764 .521 wOBA 222 wRC+ Postseason 2007:.332/.445/.621 .449 wOBA 175 wRC+ Regular season 2007:.370/.508/.696 .491 wOBA 203 wRC+ Postseason 2013:.309/.395/.564 .400 wOBA 151 wRC+ Regular season 2013:.353/.500/.706 .492 wOBA 214 wRC+ Postseason He was a major part of every world series this team won since the deadball era. You could make the argument that without him, we'd still be talking about the curse of the bambino. The ultimate goal of each season is to win the world series, not to be the greatest hitter or greatest pitcher of all time. There is no player you could remove from history that would have a bigger impact on what this franchise accomplished than David Ortiz. If you swapped Williams' and Ortiz' teams, it would be the opposite. You're crediting Ortiz for the teammates he had in the era he was in (more playoff teams and the loss of the Yankees' ability to acquire unlimited talent) to be in the position he was to do what he did. Hell if Ortiz played in the 40s and 50s, he wouldn't have been able to even be a DH.
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Post by jrffam05 on Sept 15, 2015 14:22:01 GMT -5
I'm going to defend it, I agree he is the most impactful. Doesn't mean he was as good of a player as Pedro or Williams, and you won't see it in his WAR numbers, but let's look at it one simple way. 2004:.301/.380/.603 .408 wOBA 147 wRC+ Regular season 2004:.400/.515/.764 .521 wOBA 222 wRC+ Postseason 2007:.332/.445/.621 .449 wOBA 175 wRC+ Regular season 2007:.370/.508/.696 .491 wOBA 203 wRC+ Postseason 2013:.309/.395/.564 .400 wOBA 151 wRC+ Regular season 2013:.353/.500/.706 .492 wOBA 214 wRC+ Postseason He was a major part of every world series this team won since the deadball era. You could make the argument that without him, we'd still be talking about the curse of the bambino. The ultimate goal of each season is to win the world series, not to be the greatest hitter or greatest pitcher of all time. There is no player you could remove from history that would have a bigger impact on what this franchise accomplished than David Ortiz. If you swapped Williams' and Ortiz' teams, it would be the opposite. You're crediting Ortiz for the teammates he had in the era he was in (more playoff teams and the loss of the Yankees' ability to acquire unlimited talent) to be in the position he was to do what he did. Hell if Ortiz played in the 40s and 50s, he wouldn't have been able to even be a DH. Let's be honest, if Ortiz from today played in the 50's he would make Babe Ruth's stats look average. Williams stats would take a huge hit. I'm not trying to credit Ortiz as the only one responsible for each WS, but if you take him off that team they probably don't win one. You could make the argument for Pedro in 2004, and a bunch of other guys for any of the three but Ortiz is the only one you could say it about for all three.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 15, 2015 14:32:12 GMT -5
If you swapped Williams' and Ortiz' teams, it would be the opposite. You're crediting Ortiz for the teammates he had in the era he was in (more playoff teams and the loss of the Yankees' ability to acquire unlimited talent) to be in the position he was to do what he did. Hell if Ortiz played in the 40s and 50s, he wouldn't have been able to even be a DH. Let's be honest, if Ortiz from today played in the 50's he would make Babe Ruth's stats look average. Williams stats would take a huge hit. I'm not trying to credit Ortiz as the only one responsible for each WS, but if you take him off that team they probably don't win one. You could make the argument for Pedro in 2004, and a bunch of other guys for any of the three but Ortiz is the only one you could say it about for all three. wRC+ and WAR are adjusted for year so no, that's not the case. If you put Ortiz on those teams that Williams was on, he'd play in the 46 World Series and that's it. (one of the several 10+ WAR seasons Williams had). I don't know that Papi in those 7 playoff games makes enough of a difference to overcome the no-contest WAR difference between the two.
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Post by jrffam05 on Sept 15, 2015 14:55:08 GMT -5
Let's be honest, if Ortiz from today played in the 50's he would make Babe Ruth's stats look average. Williams stats would take a huge hit. I'm not trying to credit Ortiz as the only one responsible for each WS, but if you take him off that team they probably don't win one. You could make the argument for Pedro in 2004, and a bunch of other guys for any of the three but Ortiz is the only one you could say it about for all three. wRC+ and WAR are adjusted for year so no, that's not the case. If you put Ortiz on those teams that Williams was on, he'd play in the 46 World Series and that's it. (one of the several 10+ WAR seasons Williams had). I don't know that Papi in those 7 playoff games makes enough of a difference to overcome the no-contest WAR difference between the two. They are adjusted against a replacement level player (WAR) or average hitter (wRC+) from that year. Ortiz was 38% better than than the average batter he played against, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't crush 85 mph fastballs of that time. This really isn't the point I'm trying to make though. I'm not arguing that Ortiz is a better player, neither is Spiere, just a more important one. Williams era is only worth talking about because Williams was on the team. Ortiz was part of a 10 year run where the Red Sox were one of the most (or the most) successful in the league, winning three championships, and the first in 86 long years. Without Ortiz that probably doesn't happen.
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Post by michael on Sept 15, 2015 15:06:45 GMT -5
Why isn't Larry Anderson considered one of the most impactful acquisitions? The loss of Jeff Bagwell's WAR is certainly impactful.
I don't consider $125,000 an acquisition.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 15, 2015 15:24:42 GMT -5
Maybe Dave Roberts is more important. Without that stolen base, maybe the curse is still haunting them. I really don't know what the point of this is. The difference between most valuable, best and most important can be defined however you want.
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Post by jrffam05 on Sept 15, 2015 15:55:02 GMT -5
Maybe Dave Roberts is more important. [Without that stolen base, maybe the curse is still haunting them. How would that change the other two world series? And remind me how that game ended? Common this isn't even close. The difference between most valuable, best and most important can be defined however you want. Speier posed it, I agreed with it, and you disagreed with me. All those can be ambiguous, but to me there is still a distinction between important/valuable, and better. Williams was a better player**, but Ortiz was more important. I understand you can't prove it, but my original point was there is no player in Red Sox history that you can remove that would have changed the franchise as much as Ortiz. If you were to try the same exercise would you come to a different answer, and why? I really don't know what the point of this is. Why disagree with something that was said to later say "I don't get the point of this". Outside of news and stats all we do here is speculate and debate stuff with no point.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2015 20:26:31 GMT -5
As a great poster usually exclaims in gamethreads "this team is nothing without big papi".
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Post by kalinis on Sept 15, 2015 21:28:12 GMT -5
The best FA signing for sure. the best flier on an unknown yes. manny ramirez is best free agent of all time. i love big papi but manny was a beast in boston. keep in mind though that when they picked up ortiz minny had released him due to his supposed lack of hr power they thought of him as warning track power guy. turns out they were so wrong. in boston hitting in front of manny he became a 30 hr hitter and lead us to 3 world series. i love big papi is one of the 10 greatest hitters in sox history but manny in his time here was a better free agent sign
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Post by bluechip on Sept 15, 2015 21:49:23 GMT -5
The best FA signing for sure. the best flier on an unknown yes. manny ramirez is best free agent of all time. i love big papi but manny was a beast in boston. keep in mind though that when they picked up ortiz minny had released him due to his supposed lack of hr power they thought of him as warning track power guy. turns out they were so wrong. in boston hitting in front of manny he became a 30 hr hitter and lead us to 3 world series. i love big papi is one of the 10 greatest hitters in sox history but manny in his time here was a better free agent sign Manny might have been the most talented MLB free agent signed, but Ortiz was a better signing when you consider the relative salaries. Manny's 20 million dollar salary handicapped the Red Sox for years. There is a reason Manny was able to pass through irrevocable waivers unclaimed.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Sept 15, 2015 23:17:53 GMT -5
The best FA signing for sure. the best flier on an unknown yes. manny ramirez is best free agent of all time. i love big papi but manny was a beast in boston. keep in mind though that when they picked up ortiz minny had released him due to his supposed lack of hr power they thought of him as warning track power guy. turns out they were so wrong. in boston hitting in front of manny he became a 30 hr hitter and lead us to 3 world series. i love big papi is one of the 10 greatest hitters in sox history but manny in his time here was a better free agent sign The Red Sox got great production out of Manny for 7.5 years, but the Sox have been getting fantastic production out of Ortiz for 13 seasons and still counting. That in itself is more valuable. Then when you factor in all the big moments Ortiz had that nobody else, even Manny, really didn't have. Let's see - Manny was World Series MVP, although nobody was really certain why. He nearly cost the Sox Game 1. He did hit a game winning HR off K-Rod in ALDS Game 2 in 2007, and he had the difference making HR in Game 5 of the 2003 ALDS, but he didn't have those moments that Ortiz did. I will say more of the Manny moments were pretty hillarious at times, but the fact of the matter is that at times Manny's otherworldly offense was overshadowed by poor defense and a lot of the aggravation he caused the team. Ortiz has a pretty big ego - that's plain to see, but he never caused problems the way Manny did. I'd say Ortiz is the best free agent acquisition of all-time for the Sox. Even more so than Manny.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Sept 15, 2015 23:36:21 GMT -5
Pedro was the greatest acquisition from outside the organization. The only reason why he's not the most impactful is that he played under a less talented GM than Ortiz.
It's criminal that they didn't win another title or two during Pedro's tenure. Duquette was a very good GM, but he had two major shortcomings: he wasn't very good at rounding out the roster with cheap players to supplement the core, and he hired ultimately lousy managers like Jimy Williams (who was very good until he needed to start making decisions about which position players to play, at which he was frighteningly, disturbingly inept). Of course, those two things were Theo Epstein's strengths.
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Post by brianthetaoist on Sept 16, 2015 8:39:53 GMT -5
Thing about Ortiz was that he did so much damage to other teams at a reasonable cost to his own team. Manny was a great hitter, but he was never good value. Remember when he passed through irrevocable waivers? Every other great Sox position player wasn't a major league acquisition in the way I interpret the title ...
But Pedro may even be underrated for his effect on the franchise. The team of the 90s was pretty moribund. I mean, Mo Vaughn was nice and all, but ... I remember going to a game in mid-90s, getting a cheap ticket at game time and grabbing an empty seat just behind home plate. Saw the game 5 rows behind homeplate for a few bucks. Pedro (along with Nomar) really put the Red Sox on the map again in a new way, made Fenway a really exciting place to be. And while not as embedded in the community as Ortiz, he has that special connection with the city that's hard to quantify.
Of course, it doesn't really seem like it now, but in the sweep of the history of the Red Sox, it's notable that the two most popular players of the last 15 years of Sox history (and two of the most popular in the team's history) have been Dominican. And I'm not sure there's ever been a Sox player as universally beloved in Boston as Big Papi. Maybe Yaz? Certainly not Williams.
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