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David Ortiz - most impactful acquisition in Red Sox history?
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 18, 2015 6:46:51 GMT -5
I'm simply saying. David Ortiz to me seemed like the spark in 2004. Maybe I'm alone in that. He also raked in 2007, and RAKED in 2013. Maybe it's just me, but PPI played a much larger role,sorry Pedro signed elsewhere. There's no doubt that Papi won more WS MVPs. I don't think that's the question. Or maybe it is, depending on how you define it. I don't.
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Sept 18, 2015 8:07:11 GMT -5
I'm simply saying. David Ortiz to me seemed like the spark in 2004. Maybe I'm alone in that. He also raked in 2007, and RAKED in 2013. Maybe it's just me, but PPI played a much larger role,sorry Pedro signed elsewhere. No doubt Ortiz was the common thread in all 3 championships and he was The Man in 2004 and 2013 and contributed a good deal in 2007 and did almost everything you could ask for in between. Ortiz came to the Sox highly recommended from Pedro as I remember hearing Lucchino say how surprised he was that Pedro so vehemently wanted the Sox to sign Ortiz - and Theo was on it anyways. As for Pedro he signed elsewhere because that's kind of what the Sox wanted to happen. They knew he was declining and they knew his arm angle was dropping lower and that he was a high risk in a new deal. They were pretty happy the Mets outbid them. Pedro's pride and ego told him to go to New York, but his heart never left the Red Sox, which is pretty evident today (and kind of obvious in 2006 when he returned to Fenway to pitch, got mauled, but seemed thrilled by the fan reaction to his return.)
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Sept 18, 2015 8:41:13 GMT -5
... By the way, it boggles the mind to realize that Jim Thome got to 600 home runs and is 7th all-time on the list. The guy was "only" a five-time all-star and only won ONE silver slugger. What a strange career in some respects. I mean, he finished in the top 10 in the MVP voting in three seasons in which he did not even make the All-Star Game. Thome was criminally undervalued, in my opinion. He's one of the best hitters of that generation, certainly one of the most feared. During his prime years he was overshadowed by other players on the same team. Cleveland in the mid-90s hosted one of the greatest collections of hitters ever. With Albert Belle, Manny, and Thome all blasting away, Eddie Murray was merely an afterthought. Kenny Lofton and Julio Franco set the table, and guys like Omar Vizquel & Sandy Alomar were along for the ride. And they had Jeff Kent, Brian Giles and Jeromy Burnitz riding the bench, don't you know! The most HRs he ever hit was 52, during an era when others were putting up obscene numbers. But he was very consistent hitting 40 or more 6 times, and 30 or more a dozen times. When they pitched to him, that is. He's got a lifetime on-base percentage over .400. He should be in the HOF by any reasonable measure. Let's see if they let him in the door. Well, FWIW, Kent (and Kevin Seitzer) were acquired in trades and played regularly upon arriving, and Giles was called up when Murray apparently went down with an injury in July. Burnitz, however, definitely was a bench guy until he was traded for Seitzer. But really though, that looks like a video game lineup.
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Post by brianthetaoist on Sept 18, 2015 10:54:17 GMT -5
I'm simply saying. David Ortiz to me seemed like the spark in 2004. Maybe I'm alone in that. He also raked in 2007, and RAKED in 2013. Maybe it's just me, but PPI played a much larger role,sorry Pedro signed elsewhere. No doubt Ortiz was the common thread in all 3 championships and he was The Man in 2004 and 2013 and contributed a good deal in 2007 and did almost everything you could ask for in between. Ortiz came to the Sox highly recommended from Pedro as I remember hearing Lucchino say how surprised he was that Pedro so vehemently wanted the Sox to sign Ortiz - and Theo was on it anyways. As for Pedro he signed elsewhere because that's kind of what the Sox wanted to happen. They knew he was declining and they knew his arm angle was dropping lower and that he was a high risk in a new deal. They were pretty happy the Mets outbid them. Pedro's pride and ego told him to go to New York, but his heart never left the Red Sox, which is pretty evident today (and kind of obvious in 2006 when he returned to Fenway to pitch, got mauled, but seemed thrilled by the fan reaction to his return.) One of my favorite regular season games ... it was so clear that Pedro, one of the game's great competitors, just couldn't bring himself to care about the result of that particular game. He got bombed, but he was so happy. I still maintain that while Pedro was with the Sox, there was a little bit of a "temperamental genius" attitude people had toward him. I mean, it was a minority, but it was there. While *everyone* loves Big Papi. Or maybe it's just that I don't read/listen to as much nonsense as I did then ... I never run across the equivalent of Boston Dirt Dogs anymore, for instance. But, anyway, it's splitting hairs. They are both so wildly popular now, up in the Living Boston Sports Heroes Olympus with Larry Bird, Bobby Orr, Bill Russell, Tom Brady ... and maybe Paul Pierce? I guess Pierce is the second tier with Ray Bourque, Bob Cousy, Yaz, maybe a couple others.
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gerry
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Post by gerry on Sept 18, 2015 11:58:32 GMT -5
Don't think Mr. Basketball is in the second tier of anything. Bob Cousey led the perrenial champion Celtics in the Aurbach era and was second to none ... playmaker, houdini-level playmaker, passer, sbooter, defender; the very defintion of Mr. Hustle.
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Post by gerry on Sept 18, 2015 13:05:38 GMT -5
Got into this thread late, but want to comment on the popularity of Ted Williams, as I was around for most of his career, and spent much of that time at Fenway. Ted was, actually, revered and cheered by most fans. He was considered among the greatest of the "Greatest Generation" by the greatest generation.
His volunteer service time away for WWII as a Marine, along with much of MLB, followed by volunteering for the Korean conflict set him apart, He became a model of being a commited American at a time when that was important for everyone. For this reason veterans and their families and friends (a majority of the country in the 40's and 50's) spoke of him with respect and affection. I remember, as a kid, how almost every house had a ribbon in the window indicating someone who was serving, or killed, in the war. That was part of Ted's fanbase.
Ted was also the spokesman for Sears-Roebucks which marketed the best sporting, camping and fishing supplies right through the 60's. He was the spokesman for all things related to fishing, one of bis great loves, and a reason why, back then, everyone had fishing gear and canoes from Sears. He genuine popularity made Sears (and Ted) big bucks.
Ted literally made the Jimmy Fund, elevating the fund-raising afforts, as well as concern over cbildrens' diseases many levels. He accomplished all this because he was so popular.
Ted was a national hero, and a hero in every sense (war hero, baseball hero, fishing and camping hero, hero to children and their parents through the Jimmy Fund). He was John Wayne, except in real life.
There are three groups that I can remember who did not like Ted: 1. MFY fans who resented Ted sharing center stage with THEIR hero, Joe DiMaggio 2. Boston mediots. The vitriol of CHB, Felger, Mazzarotti, etc is nothimg new. Boston writer, self proclaimed Colonel, hated Fed so much he voted against for MVP. Ted did not like the Boston sports media because of their abuse of players (including him). He fought them constantly and they responded with acrimony. Yet, in an era of no alternative media (blogs) the fans venerated Ted. 3. The boobirds. There are sections of Fenway which took pride in getting dramatically drunk and enjoy their days by hurling the foulest insults at Ted, Piersall, Jensen, Pumpsie, and whichever easy target was in earshot. These guys exist today. You have heard them call out JD Drew, or Papi when he struggles. No, they are not from Philly. Tbey are reputed Sox fans were and are aided and abetted by the mediot class, the Colonel then, Felger now. It would be interesting to know If this hateful element of Sox fandom is generational. Is the hate gene inherited? For what it's worth, Ted was treated so badly by this element that quite a few yelling matches and fist fights happened in the seats to shut them up; and they were/are a pretty intimidating bunch of scboolyard bully types. Those fights wwould mean jail time today, but back then it didn't. Thank heaven.
In conclusion, I like the idea upthread of eras. Ted was the absolutely brightest and most loved star in his own era (1939-1960) though his star continued to shine long after his career in LF ended. Papi has dominated his own era, both on the field and in the community, perhaps highlighted after the Marathon bombing. Yet, Papi has his detractors, media and fans, who likely inherited the hate gene; and MFY fans, two of whom illegally broke the court-seal of confidential documents and leaked Papi's voluntary drug test. Those 2 lawyers are out of the spotlight ubscathed, while that cloud continues to shade Papi's HOF career. To me, Ted and Papi bookend more than 75 years of Sox struggles and glories through several different eras of the game. I have been fortunate to watch them both, alot, and believe they, in a world which has changed again and again through those 75 years, simply cannot be compared, only admired and respected.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 18, 2015 13:41:50 GMT -5
Thanks for that post gerry. Always great to hear something like that from before my time from a fan's perspective. You can't get that from fangraphs. And my dad grew up a Brooklyn Dodgers fan, so I didn't get those stories from him either (instead I got the Duke Snider, Drysdale and Koufax stories). We both became Red Sox fans when we moved to NH in 1973 (although I was 2 so it was a few more years for me). My dad didn't really have a team after the Dodgers moved so it was pretty easy to get sucked in by the local team, especially before national tv broadcasts and internet.
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Post by ray88h66 on Sept 18, 2015 14:44:56 GMT -5
Thanks Gerry. I was just a kid when Ted stopped playing. My dad always said he was mostly liked by the fans and the media over played the booing. When there's only 10,000 or less in Fenway a few voices carry more weight. Thankfully, even in bad times. Fenway always has more fans now.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2015 16:05:01 GMT -5
Well, the point is to control for how much the player played looking at home runs alone, not to say which player is better or anything. It's interesting but it's not meant to be definitive. Of course nobody in their right mind is going to say Sosa was a better player or better hitter. But if you're saying, player steps in the box, based on his career, who is more likely to hit a home run in this plate appearance, the answer is Sosa. That doesn't, on its own, make the comparison garbage. My answer is still Bonds, who was intentionally walked 688 times, which is more than twice as many as anyone else since they've been keeping track of them. In those 688 plate appearances, he had zero chance to hit a home run. I can't argue with the literal math of 'steps in the box', I just don't think it says anything meaningful. He was intentionally walked so many times precisely because he was so much more likely to hit a home run if he was pitched to. I'm not sure what the list is supposed to measure, but I assume it was something along the lines of how dangerous of a home run hitter each player is. And it's impossible to know how many times guys like Williams or Ruth were intentionally walked, or even severely pitched around. But I'd assume it was a lot, which is why I wouldn't include walks at all. Add to that the fact that Bonds' felony conviction has been reversed. Baseball is forced to recognize him as an innocent man.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 18, 2015 16:40:11 GMT -5
My answer is still Bonds, who was intentionally walked 688 times, which is more than twice as many as anyone else since they've been keeping track of them. In those 688 plate appearances, he had zero chance to hit a home run. I can't argue with the literal math of 'steps in the box', I just don't think it says anything meaningful. He was intentionally walked so many times precisely because he was so much more likely to hit a home run if he was pitched to. I'm not sure what the list is supposed to measure, but I assume it was something along the lines of how dangerous of a home run hitter each player is. And it's impossible to know how many times guys like Williams or Ruth were intentionally walked, or even severely pitched around. But I'd assume it was a lot, which is why I wouldn't include walks at all. Add to that the fact that Bonds' felony conviction has been reversed. Baseball is forced to recognize him as an innocent man. I wasn't even considering that and won't comment on that, I was just looking at the #s.
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gerry
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Post by gerry on Sept 18, 2015 19:40:45 GMT -5
Thanks Gerry. I was just a kid when Ted stopped playing. My dad always said he was mostly liked by the fans and the media over played the booing. When there's only 10,000 or less in Fenway a few voices carry more weight. Thankfully, even in bad times. Fenway always has more fans now. Excellent point. There were so often so few people there that dialogue witb the players was a given, and they often got an earful. Also when we got to know the ushers a bit, who were largely Ted fans and good guys, they would let us move from the cheap seats to the good ones, away from the haters. In hindsight, never thought of it before, maybe they were just preventing fights. It was a tough crowd back then.
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Post by gerry on Sept 18, 2015 19:56:23 GMT -5
Thanks for that post gerry. Always great to hear something like that from before my time from a fan's perspective. You can't get that from fangraphs. And my dad grew up a Brooklyn Dodgers fan, so I didn't get those stories from him either (instead I got the Duke Snider, Drysdale and Koufax stories). We both became Red Sox fans when we moved to NH in 1973 (although I was 2 so it was a few more years for me). My dad didn't really have a team after the Dodgers moved so it was pretty easy to get sucked in by the local team, especially before national tv broadcasts and internet. A fee years ago, an elderly gentleman told us a heartbreaking story of the end of the Dodgers. Unlike the mfy in the Bronx, the Dodgers were the soul of Brooklyn. Generations spent every summer living every run, play, error of that team. The players were both every day lunchbox guys and genuine heroes. There was no summer in Newport or the Cape for these New Yorkers. They stayed home with their team, and loved it. He claimed they were the most loyal and passionate fanbase in the game, because it was a neigh orhood team in a tight knit neighborhood. When the O'Malley's moved the team to Cbavez Ravine, Brooklyn went into a community-wide depression and eventually fell apart. He believes that no other MLB city loves their team in the same way except for Boston and its Red Sox. That is a supreme compliment from a baseball lover which, after attending games around the country, I accept as true.
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Post by m1keyboots on Sept 18, 2015 23:19:40 GMT -5
The difference to me is, my father and I used to revel in the hitting genius of Nomars ability to barrel the ball up, his telling me Trot Nixon was going to take away my favorite Player (O'leary) We were upset when Ivan won the mvp over pedro, but when we talk about Papi we talk about a guy who united a city in his words in 2013, and after he turned the sound off in 2003... his reaction in 2004 was the only time I've seen my father try to text (this was of course in the time of the razor) because he couldn't speak without crying. Papi made that possible IMO starting with his walkoff off washburn.
Since then he called me after game 4 in 2007 and some time after in 2013 and there weren't many words. Same with my uncle Myles. David Ortiz (to a much lesser extent schill, bellhorn, damon, drew/drew, Pedro etc) provided him with so much pure joy and happiness I don't believe there is anyone in Papis class when it comes to this.
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Post by gerry on Sept 19, 2015 2:58:37 GMT -5
Agree with this about David. He is the brightest light of the three remarkable teams that, amazingly, won the WS and created a winning attitude.
Just imagine, those from my generation, most of whom are still around, traditionally said "Wait 'til next year" at the end of +/- 60 Red Sox seasons prior to 2004; and we learned that from our parents who said the same thing after about 30 seasons before they taught this mantra to us.
So when this season ends and my brothers and kids and grankids and friends say "wait 'til next year" it will be with far less angst than before Papi and the Sox led us to the Promised Land. Tears? You bet. Excited for 2016? You bet.
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TX
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Post by TX on Sept 19, 2015 10:54:52 GMT -5
Until the position of DH is fairly addressed with the WARmongers I won't qualify Papi using the criteria. It is a challenging position to play, proven by the many batters who have failed there, and just because WAR refuses to quantify the difficult to prove mental aspect of players and, in this case, a position, doesn't mean it should be ignored.
Papi has been the best DH of his era, hands down. He is arguably the best DH of all time. That should count for more than it does.
Regarding the Red Sox: As an acquisition, Papi >> Pedro. IMO, Papi has been the most impacting acquisition in Sox history, Manny 2nd, Pedro 3rd.
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Post by jodyreidnichols on Sept 19, 2015 14:18:18 GMT -5
When Dan D. signed Manny Ramirez it was a game changer. Manny was the first star/mvp contender free agent to sign with the RedSox while still in his prime. It changed the way other free agents viewed the Sox and anyone that followed can be said because of this one that preceded it. Boston became a place to play and for the first time in a long time ownership was willing to pay.
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TX
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Post by TX on Sept 19, 2015 22:16:36 GMT -5
Yeah, not only that but the kid carried a pretty decent bat as well.
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