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Post by pkc99 on Oct 14, 2015 18:10:50 GMT -5
With the possible exception of the Bartman inning or the A-Rod girl slap on Arroyo, that was the most bizarre inning of baseball I have ever seen. I'm only 30, but still. That was insane.
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Post by ray88h66 on Oct 14, 2015 18:13:14 GMT -5
Wow, no idea what the ratings are the last few days, but it's been great baseball. They've been good ive heard. Cool, these games can only help the game I love.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Oct 14, 2015 18:14:38 GMT -5
Deplorable conduct on behalf of the Jays and their fans this inning......I know who I'll be rooting against the rest of the way.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2015 18:16:22 GMT -5
With the possible exception of the Bartman inning or the A-Rod girl slap on Arroyo, that was the most bizarre inning of baseball I have ever seen. I'm only 30, but still. That was insane. Don't forget that one inning in a certain game against the Mets back in '86.
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Post by mattpicard on Oct 14, 2015 18:20:15 GMT -5
Deplorable conduct on behalf of the Jays and their fans this inning......I know who I'll be rooting against the rest of the way. The fans, sure, but why the Jays players? They had a right to be worked up over that "WTF" play, and they repeatedly tried to get fans to stop throwing junk onto the field. As for the Joey B bat flip, I love it.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Oct 14, 2015 18:29:57 GMT -5
Ruining - what's left - of the Canadians' reputation, eh?
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Post by kingofthetrill on Oct 14, 2015 18:31:54 GMT -5
With the possible exception of the Bartman inning or the A-Rod girl slap on Arroyo, that was the most bizarre inning of baseball I have ever seen. I'm only 30, but still. That was insane. Don't forget that one inning in a certain game against the Mets back in '86. I've spent a good percentage of my adult life trying to forget that part of history.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Oct 14, 2015 18:32:19 GMT -5
Deplorable conduct on behalf of the Jays and their fans this inning......I know who I'll be rooting against the rest of the way. The fans, sure, but why the Jays players? They had a right to be worked up over that "WTF" play, and they repeatedly tried to get fans to stop throwing junk onto the field. As for the Joey B bat flip, I love it. Russell Martin made the bonehead play and they were acting like babies with the umps. The call was right...so yes...they look like whiny bitches. If you like the Bats pimp....that's your right, it not how i feel professsionals should act. I don't like it when Sox do it..either.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2015 18:39:37 GMT -5
Don't forget that one inning in a certain game against the Mets back in '86. I've spent a good percentage of my adult life trying to forget that part of history. Maybe that's why the baseball gods decided to give us an outfielder named Mookie.
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Post by ray88h66 on Oct 14, 2015 18:41:32 GMT -5
Don't forget that one inning in a certain game against the Mets back in '86. I've spent a good percentage of my adult life trying to forget that part of history. Amen, but he did mention he was only 30. He is unscarred by 86, Bucky Bliping Dent, the 72 half game bull, or Bob freaking Gibson. Thankfully I'm not old enough to have seen Pesky hold the ball in 46, but the film I've seen doesn't make that as bad as my dad said it was. Forget 75, brain cells are a terrible thing to waste.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2015 18:46:47 GMT -5
This was a pretty weird postseason inning - Albeit in a good way.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Oct 14, 2015 18:48:33 GMT -5
I really do think the Jays are the best team. I like them to win it all.
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Post by bluechip on Oct 14, 2015 20:13:56 GMT -5
Theo has done a good job in Chicago. Though, I think you are being a little revisionist with how things ended in Boston. It is very easy to give Theo all of the credit for all the good things that happened when he was here, and Larry all the blame for all of the bad things. Besides I am not sure what you mean by doing things the "right way." If there is such a thing as a "short cut" why does the Cubs signing of Lester not qualify? The Cubs didn't sign Lester until they were ready to supplement their young core, when they were ready to be a winning team. The last few years in Chicago were all about stockpiling prospects. They didn't sign a bunch of free agents, clog up the payroll with a bunch of false promises. They waited until they were in position. They're there now. I'm not trying to turn this into a Lucchino bad cop/Theo good cop argument. My main point is that I've read enough things about Theo to have a pretty good idea of how he likes to build his team. Based on everything we have read or heard, it's not hard to come to the conclusion that Theo and Lucchino always butted heads because the business of baseball demands winning baseball at nearly all times or at least the illusion of the chance of winning baseball. We all know why he left the first time around. Lucchino, at a meeting, was part of the thought process in which a "down" season in which you take one step back to take two steps forward was too damaging to the Sox financially and they weren't going to be honest with the fanbase about the need for patience. This drove Theo to leave in his monkey suit. It's pretty well documented in Feeding the Monster. Theo said he gave into it toward the end and he took the blame for it. He didn't want to fight the good fight anymore. He's in a totally different situation in Chicago. Ricketts gave him carte blanche to build the team the way he sees fit and he did so, allowing him the patience and time. The Cubs have been awful the first three years of Theo's tenure, but he never BSed the fans or went for a quick fix. And I get the feeling that Theo is doing EXACTLY what he wanted to do. I've certainly haven't read otherwise. Now he has his team in position where they are blessed with so much young talent, they can afford to sign a Jon Lester, and they can afford to add a David Price as well. My feeling is that Lackey, Crawford, and Gonzalez never would have been acquired if Theo had his druthers. I have no doubt that Theo like Gonzo, but I have little doubt he was enamored with Rizzo more than Gonzo. In a vacuum, it can be hard to separate the actions of the GM from his true self philosophy. For example, Dave Dombrowski made a lot of moves he probably wouldn't make here because the pressure was always on him to win and the current day was all that mattered, and the future didn't. That definitely swayed the moves he made. I don't think Dombrowski will be the same GM he was for the Tigers. I believe his philosophy will be closer to his truer philosophy - the one he employed with the Marlins and Expos. Likewise, I think Cashman has made plenty of moves he wouldn't otherwise if not for the Steinbrenners. I think Dombrowski will have much more latitude than Theo ever had, and I'm encouraged that he hasn't tried to blow everything up. As far as the front office, he has kept everything that works well, and has tried to improve things that need improving, so I've been impressed thus far by DDO. We'll see how he operates in the trade market. Yup, Theo must have not wanted to make any of the poor signings or trades. In contrast, he wanted to make all of the good moves. Btw how were the 2011 red sox not in a position to compete? In 2010 they won 89 games. The failure of 2011 was not signing big names. It was choosing VERY VERY poorly in who they signed. They left V Mart and Beltre walk and replaced them with Crawford and Gonzalez. Even with those bad choices, they still missed the playoffs on the last day of the season. The problem was not that the Red Sox favored guys in their prime over the kids in 2011. It was who they chose. Whose job was it to choose players in 2011? You can suppose that the bad choices fell with upper management? But who choice was it to let Beltre (who has been amazing for the last five years) and V Mart (who hit .330 in 2011) walk?
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 14, 2015 21:12:17 GMT -5
The Cubs didn't sign Lester until they were ready to supplement their young core, when they were ready to be a winning team. The last few years in Chicago were all about stockpiling prospects. They didn't sign a bunch of free agents, clog up the payroll with a bunch of false promises. They waited until they were in position. They're there now. I'm not trying to turn this into a Lucchino bad cop/Theo good cop argument. My main point is that I've read enough things about Theo to have a pretty good idea of how he likes to build his team. Based on everything we have read or heard, it's not hard to come to the conclusion that Theo and Lucchino always butted heads because the business of baseball demands winning baseball at nearly all times or at least the illusion of the chance of winning baseball. We all know why he left the first time around. Lucchino, at a meeting, was part of the thought process in which a "down" season in which you take one step back to take two steps forward was too damaging to the Sox financially and they weren't going to be honest with the fanbase about the need for patience. This drove Theo to leave in his monkey suit. It's pretty well documented in Feeding the Monster. Theo said he gave into it toward the end and he took the blame for it. He didn't want to fight the good fight anymore. He's in a totally different situation in Chicago. Ricketts gave him carte blanche to build the team the way he sees fit and he did so, allowing him the patience and time. The Cubs have been awful the first three years of Theo's tenure, but he never BSed the fans or went for a quick fix. And I get the feeling that Theo is doing EXACTLY what he wanted to do. I've certainly haven't read otherwise. Now he has his team in position where they are blessed with so much young talent, they can afford to sign a Jon Lester, and they can afford to add a David Price as well. My feeling is that Lackey, Crawford, and Gonzalez never would have been acquired if Theo had his druthers. I have no doubt that Theo like Gonzo, but I have little doubt he was enamored with Rizzo more than Gonzo. In a vacuum, it can be hard to separate the actions of the GM from his true self philosophy. For example, Dave Dombrowski made a lot of moves he probably wouldn't make here because the pressure was always on him to win and the current day was all that mattered, and the future didn't. That definitely swayed the moves he made. I don't think Dombrowski will be the same GM he was for the Tigers. I believe his philosophy will be closer to his truer philosophy - the one he employed with the Marlins and Expos. Likewise, I think Cashman has made plenty of moves he wouldn't otherwise if not for the Steinbrenners. I think Dombrowski will have much more latitude than Theo ever had, and I'm encouraged that he hasn't tried to blow everything up. As far as the front office, he has kept everything that works well, and has tried to improve things that need improving, so I've been impressed thus far by DDO. We'll see how he operates in the trade market. Yup, Theo must have not wanted to make any of the poor signings or trades. In contrast, he wanted to make all of the good moves. Btw how were the 2011 red sox not in a position to compete? In 2010 they won 89 games. The failure of 2011 was not signing big names. It was choosing VERY VERY poorly in who they signed. They left V Mart and Beltre walk and replaced them with Crawford and Gonzalez. Even with those bad choices, they still missed the playoffs on the last day of the season. The problem was not that the Red Sox favored guys in their prime over the kids in 2011. It was who they chose. Whose job was it to choose players in 2011? You can suppose that the bad choices fell with upper management? But who choice was it to let Beltre (who has been amazing for the last five years) and V Mart (who hit .330 in 2011) walk? Do you really think Theo operated with a free reign with Boston that he now has with Chicago? Really? That 2011 team was the "uberteam" that Theo always warned against building. After the 2010 season was a disappointment, the pressure was really on to build a team to win right away that next season. I'm not convinced that Theo would make the Crawford signing and Gonzo trade if left to his own devices. That's not to say that if it was a good move it belonged to Theo, but if it was a bad move it belonged to Lucchino. I have no doubt that the idea to move Ellsbury to LF and sign Mike Cameron belonged to Theo. I have no doubt that the bullpen by committee idea the Sox tried out initially in 03 belonged to Theo. I have no doubt that Theo thought that Coco Crisp was a star in the making, and I have no doubt it was Theo's thought to deal Arroyo for Wily Mo Pena. I have no doubt that Theo wanted V-Mart to walk and possibly Beltre, too. I'm sure Theo preferred the draft pick compensation and didn't think V-Mart would be as big an asset as a 1b. I know Theo think always wanted Beltre. He originally wanted to sign him as a SS in 2005 and move him to 3b when Hanley was ready. It didn't happen of course. My guess is there was a lot of sentiment to make the Gonzo deal and with Youks around, Beltre became expendable for draft pick compensation. I do question how badly Theo really wanted to sign Lackey or Crawford or deal Rizzo for Gonzalez. And I do question how much latitude he had in making moves without getting a lot of kickback from the higher ups. And I think I'm right to question that - after all he took off to Chicago where he could have a job where he could do things the way he wanted to, and it's paying off.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 14, 2015 21:18:06 GMT -5
Ok, I know this is totally going to come off as reactionary, but I still think Johnny Cueto is a damn good pitcher, and I hope the Sox do get him if they don't secure Price and I'd rather get him than trade away prospects.
I'm hoping that his rough stretch knocks his value down into the 6 year $135 range rather than the 6 year $175 figure he looked like he'd command prior to the trade to KC.
If the Sox go the free agent route, they're as likely to sign Cueto as any other pitcher including Price. I think if the Sox are close with Cueto, he'd sign with the Sox. I think he's interested in going to the Sox.
Price is going to command over $200 million and might even get an 8 year deal. Obviously Price is the prize of the free agent market, but Cueto, who doesn't require draft pick compensation, could be a good pickup if he is healthy.
I'm not convinced that the bad stretch he had with the Royals is who he is. I think he's better than that - not as good as he's been with Cincy, but still pretty good, and somebody you can put at the top of the rotation.
I suspect I'm in a minority opinion, and that there are plenty of others here who would run far away from him.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2015 22:30:16 GMT -5
I do question how badly Theo really wanted to sign Lackey or Crawford or deal Rizzo for Gonzalez. It was widely reported at the time that Lackey was a fall back option: sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4780391"Earlier this offseason, the Red Sox offered Holliday a five-year, $82.5 million contract, but sources say Boston's offer was rejected. The Red Sox then used that money to sign veteran right-handed starter John Lackey."
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Post by bluechip on Oct 14, 2015 23:18:13 GMT -5
I do question how badly Theo really wanted to sign Lackey or Crawford or deal Rizzo for Gonzalez. It was widely reported at the time that Lackey was a fall back option: sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4780391"Earlier this offseason, the Red Sox offered Holliday a five-year, $82.5 million contract, but sources say Boston's offer was rejected. The Red Sox then used that money to sign veteran right-handed starter John Lackey." The ironic thing is as bad as the Lackey signing looked in 2012, it actually was a pretty good contract when it was all said and done. In a five year contract he had 3 very good years (2013-15), one okay year (2010) and one terrible year (2011). He also missed a year in the middle, but that was recouped with his free 2015. While one would have expected the best performance to be at the beginning of the deal, this deal gave more value in the long run than I expected even when it was signed.
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Post by cba82 on Oct 15, 2015 6:02:11 GMT -5
Ruining - what's left - of the Canadians' reputation, eh? Toronto fans are a bunch of frauds. I've been to their ballpark to watch the Sox play, and there were acres and acres of empty seats. I observed classless behavior that night, too, so last night does not surprise me.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Oct 15, 2015 9:05:16 GMT -5
Ruining - what's left - of the Canadians' reputation, eh? Toronto fans are a bunch of frauds. I've been to their ballpark to watch the Sox play, and there were acres and acres of empty seats. I observed classless behavior that night, too, so last night does not surprise me. So we're supposed to root for the Royals fans who single-handedly made Alcides Escobar the All-Star SS along with two or three undeserving teammates, and almost got Infante elected as well?
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atzar
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Post by atzar on Oct 15, 2015 9:11:09 GMT -5
Hate seeing fans throw trash on the field. That is indeed classless.
As for what the players did, no problem with it. I like Bautista's bat flip. Don't give me this 'respect the game' crap... he hit a late-game, go-ahead HR in the deciding game of a playoff series in which they were trailing 2-0, in an inning where they had already dealt with some questionable BS. I don't want these guys to act like they don't have a pulse.
But I'm sure the Rangers will see it as justification enough to commit assault the first time they play the Jays next season. Tell me which of these unspoken rules is worse for baseball.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Oct 15, 2015 10:39:10 GMT -5
Hate seeing fans throw trash on the field. That is indeed classless. As for what the players did, no problem with it. I like Bautista's bat flip. Don't give me this 'respect the game' crap... he hit a late-game, go-ahead HR in the deciding game of a playoff series in which they were trailing 2-0, in an inning where they had already dealt with some questionable BS. I don't want these guys to act like they don't have a pulse. But I'm sure the Rangers will see it as justification enough to commit assault the first time they play the Jays next season. Tell me which of these unspoken rules is worse for baseball. I'll take this. I would encourage you (and all the other likes to the posts in this matter) to go watch a high-lite of Joe Carter's home run to win the World Series and tell me if you notice any difference. One was done with grace and dignity, the other wasn't. It was a big moment...so emotions are excusable. The bat flip is part of the current culture and is less abrasive, the standing on home plate and raising your hands up before said flip shows an extreme lack of class and dignity. And before you start blaming the Rangers for what their reaction is or will be..you'd be hearing the exact same thing from the Jays if it happened to them. Lastly, I am sure you and everyone else that has no problem with wouldn't be so understanding if it came at the expense of the Red Sox. For me, and probably alot of others, it cheapened an unbelievably compelling game to watch
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Post by grandsalami on Oct 15, 2015 10:41:18 GMT -5
I will just leave this here
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radiohix
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'At the end of the day, we bang. We bang. We're going to swing.' Alex Verdugo
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Post by radiohix on Oct 15, 2015 11:18:58 GMT -5
Hate seeing fans throw trash on the field. That is indeed classless. As for what the players did, no problem with it. I like Bautista's bat flip. Don't give me this 'respect the game' crap... he hit a late-game, go-ahead HR in the deciding game of a playoff series in which they were trailing 2-0, in an inning where they had already dealt with some questionable BS. I don't want these guys to act like they don't have a pulse. But I'm sure the Rangers will see it as justification enough to commit assault the first time they play the Jays next season. Tell me which of these unspoken rules is worse for baseball. I'll take this. I would encourage you (and all the other likes to the posts in this matter) to go watch a high-lite of Joe Carter's home run to win the World Series and tell me if you notice any difference. One was done with grace and dignity, the other wasn't. It was a big moment...so emotions are excusable. The bat flip is part of the current culture and is less abrasive, the standing on home plate and raising your hands up before said flip shows an extreme lack of class and dignity. And before you start blaming the Rangers for what their reaction is or will be..you'd be hearing the exact same thing from the Jays if it happened to them. Lastly, I am sure you and everyone else that has no problem with wouldn't be so understanding if it came at the expense of the Red Sox. For me, and probably alot of others, it cheapened an unbelievably compelling game to watch Instead of robotising the strike zone, let's robotize the players!
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Post by jmei on Oct 15, 2015 11:29:28 GMT -5
Hate seeing fans throw trash on the field. That is indeed classless. As for what the players did, no problem with it. I like Bautista's bat flip. Don't give me this 'respect the game' crap... he hit a late-game, go-ahead HR in the deciding game of a playoff series in which they were trailing 2-0, in an inning where they had already dealt with some questionable BS. I don't want these guys to act like they don't have a pulse. But I'm sure the Rangers will see it as justification enough to commit assault the first time they play the Jays next season. Tell me which of these unspoken rules is worse for baseball. I'll take this. I would encourage you (and all the other likes to the posts in this matter) to go watch a high-lite of Joe Carter's home run to win the World Series and tell me if you notice any difference. One was done with grace and dignity, the other wasn't. It was a big moment...so emotions are excusable. The bat flip is part of the current culture and is less abrasive, the standing on home plate and raising your hands up before said flip shows an extreme lack of class and dignity. And before you start blaming the Rangers for what their reaction is or will be..you'd be hearing the exact same thing from the Jays if it happened to them. Lastly, I am sure you and everyone else that has no problem with wouldn't be so understanding if it came at the expense of the Red Sox. For me, and probably alot of others, it cheapened an unbelievably compelling game to watch Um, you might actually want to re-watch that Joe Carter highlight. He literally skips around the bases with his hands in the air and is mobbed by his teammates as he does so. That genuine show of emotion in front of his hometown fans in a huge game is what makes it a great moment. That same dynamic existed last night.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Oct 15, 2015 11:40:15 GMT -5
Um, you might actually want to re-watch that Joe Carter highlight. He literally skips around the bases with his hands in the air and is mobbed by his teammates as he does so. That genuine show of emotion in front of his hometown fans in a huge game is what makes it a great moment. That same dynamic existed last night. Respectfully, I did watch it, that's why I brought it up. I don't the 2 as being similiar. I was commenting on the initial grandstanding...narcissistic...undignified....softball league.......no class....reaction of the the batter when he realized it was a home run. I'm going to let it go now. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
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